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Old October 18, 2013, 12:36 AM   #1
Metal god
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Bedding my Savage accu-stock

Hello I've been having a issue with my action screws staying torqued . The front screw of a 4.4' 2 screw model 10 accu-stock keeps coming loose . The stock is the newer model with the bolt release just in front of the trigger guard . The only torque that does not come loose is 65 in-lbs , that is 25 more then Savage recommends .

My question is what bedding material is best to bond with aluminum ? The material can not be runny or sag . The area the material needs to fill is pretty deep and wide as well . I can't have the bedding compound drip into the mag well area or where the trigger sits into .

here is a few picks of what needs to be filled and where . As you can see the spine of the accu-stock and the sides of the bedding system are quite a bit apart . The top of the spine is flat and my receiver is round . Because of this the receiver makes very little contact with the spine and wedges it self in at the top sides of the bedding system . The sides do make contact the intier length of the receiver but there is some flex in this area . . The area may go the length but it's a very thin contact area . I would say a little thinner then a tooth pick . The rest is hollow and those are the areas I want to fill in .





As you can see the bedding compound will only be sticking to aluminum and it must have enough body to stay in place while it sets up. Here are two products I have come up with . Both are epoxy putty's rather then resins .

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/647...und-putty-1-lb

http://www.amazon.com/Devcon-10610-A...aluminum+putty

I almost bought the plastic steel but then came across the epoxy that is designed for aluminum and now I'm not sure what to use .

Any other product ideas are welcome if the results are great when the only material the product can stick to is aluminum and it is thick enough not to sag or drip while setting up do to the fact there will be so much material used in a area .

Thanks Metal
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Old October 18, 2013, 07:36 AM   #2
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Why not just put some Loc-Tite or teflon tape on the screw threads and torque it back down.
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Old October 18, 2013, 08:12 AM   #3
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Hello Metal God- I am with Saltydog on this one. I have 9 Savages now. It seems to be a Savage issue ( loose screws ). I put one dab of Blue Loctite on the screws and it is done. Only after I have determined what tourqe I want my screws at. Never yet has it been above 40 inch lbs. Most (6 of them ) are 30 in the rear and 35 in the front. It is a very intresting test you should do. Start at 10 rear and 15 front and go up in 5 inch lbs jumps. Watch your groups shrink and then when you get to tight,they start to open up again. Bedding could get you no where. I have never had to bed a Savage to get it to shoot sub MOA,but I have had to mess with the action screws on every one of them.

Google action screw tension and hit the one done by Savage comp shooters. very intresting read.
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Old October 18, 2013, 11:06 AM   #4
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I have thought about locktite but the sides of the bedding block flex's a little . I was thinking that may be the issue . The action moves and or vibrates ever so slightly and that helps the screws get loose .

I did do the torque test and did watch my groups shrink then get bigger . The problem I had was , the front screw came loose every time I did the test . I never knew what the torque was when I shot the good group . The back liked 30lbs but the front came loose during each test . At the time of testing I not only was checking what torque my rifle liked . I was also trying to see if the action scews were going to come loose . I did the test like Stan Pete recommends . Start with the front screw at 30lbs and work the back screw up in 5lbs increments . This is a accu-stock recommendation . Not sure if a standard stock is different when it comes to torquing the screws and in what order or increments .

I emailed Savage about my problem and although they did help ,IMO they did as little as possible to resolve my problem .They were not very engaging , never asked any questions like did I use the lock washers or any other trouble shooting .I told them the front screw came loose at 30lbs , 40lbs and 50lbs and yet they came back with just torque both screws to 40lbs period . They never once recommended locktite but that could have been because they were not very interested in resolving my problem even though at the top of each email it says your issue has been solved

Here is my issue right now . I'm about 700 rounds of waisted load development because of these stock issues . At the time I did not know my stock was loose when I started working up loads for this rifle . I don't want to waist any more ammo paying around with the stock . That also explained why it was so hard to confirm a good load . I would work up a loads one day . Find the best grouping load and go back with 15 to 20 rounds loaded of the best loads . Only for them to group like crap the second time out .

I will try the locktite but I don't know how commited I will stay with it . Meaning i'll try a couple torque setting , I have a couple in mind that worked before .I'll then locktite the action and see if the rifle stays consistant . I'm not going through another couple hundred rounds trying to dial it in . I'm thinking bedding and locktite sounds pretty good . I'm at the point that I'm willing to try a couple more thing and if they dont work I'm going to a new stock .

FWIW here is a link to my thread that set me on the path I'm on now .
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=533726
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Old October 18, 2013, 11:56 AM   #5
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Sorry to hear all that guy. I think you are going the right direction though. I would still just go with the BLUE loctite ( Very small dab ). Tourqe them to your setting and let her dry overnight. That should never come loose from shooting. Please keep us updated.
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Old October 18, 2013, 02:10 PM   #6
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Round receiver on flat block is a bit unconventional. But I don't think glass bedding will make the screw stay put either. I agree with the other folks that you should try loctite and see how it turns out. I'd like to suggest a few more things

1. Thoroughly degrease the screw threads, on both sides, before applying loctite. I don't know the exact construction of your rifle's action screws, but spring washers may be an option.

2. Savage's recommendation of 40 in-lb of torque could be too low. Rule of thumb: 40 in-lb for wood stock without bedding, 45-50 in-lb for wood with glass bedding, 50 - 60 in-lb for pillar bedded stocks. Most pillars nowadays are made of Al. The bedding block in your rifle is Al. I'd torque it to at least 50 in-lb.

3. If you ever come to the conclusion that glass bedding is necessary, you can build dam out of modelling clay to control where the compound would go. Epoxy shouldn't have difficult to stick to Al, but you want to degrease and rough up the surfaces to aid adhersion. I like steel putty from Devcon, but you can try their Al putty if you like. I don't think it make a lot of difference.

Hope it helps.

-TL
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Old October 18, 2013, 09:45 PM   #7
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I don't see bedding helping at all with your problem. I don't even think it is adviseable at all with this stock. If I understand the principle behind the accustock there is supposed to be a little give. This keeps the action centered, if I understand it right.

Click on "Accustock" for a video explaining how it works. At least in theory.

http://www.savagearms.com/accuracy/accustock/
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Old October 19, 2013, 12:29 PM   #8
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A little blue loktite or fingernail polish , and proper torque , should solve your problem . The Accu-Stock was invented to eliminate the need for bedding !
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Old October 20, 2013, 12:13 AM   #9
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Thanks guys for your help BUUUUT I went ahead and bed my action . I'll be shooting on tuesday and I'll update you on how it went . I will use locktite as well . Here are a couple pics



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Old October 20, 2013, 10:36 AM   #10
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Bedding job looks good. Might do the trick- as long as you didn't induce stress into the receiver in the process. Electrical tape or surgical tubing is best IMO for getting even pressure on the receiver and avoiding point-loads like torquing action screws...

The flat vs. round debate is like others with no clear answer and advocates on boths sides.

Same discussion applies with pillars- many competition shooters prefer flat pillars, others rounded. Those that advocate "flat" are of the opinion that even with precision machining, there will not be 100% contact of "round to round", and so prefer just going with the flat-top pillars and bedding.

Same would seem to apply to aluminum bedding blocks. Most skim-bed;my son's Savage is in a Choate stock with aluminum block and I can now see some areas from the "wear pattern" that look like they could use some epoxy.

Skim bed, or full bed as you did, if done correctly I can't see how it could be detrimental to consistency.

Your range report will tell the story, let us know...
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Old October 20, 2013, 07:12 PM   #11
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If you want consistantly in receiver to stock pressure, re-torque each screw before you shoot each day. Stocks expand and shrink with temperature.

TL, Win 70 receivers epoxy bedded in wood stocks shot most accurate with 60 inch pounds on each screw.
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Old October 20, 2013, 10:53 PM   #12
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Generally I'd like to torque as high as possible, as long as I don't compress the substrate materials. The rule of thumb is just some simple guideline I go by. I torque my Rem 700 BDL to 60 in-lb. It has wooden stock glass bedded with aluminum pillars. It shoots scarily accurately, so 60 lb-in for win 70 is not surprising at all.

-TL
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Old October 24, 2013, 11:43 AM   #13
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Quick up date .

Went to the range Tuesday . I had the action torqued down to 35# in front and 30# back . I did use locktite and the screws did not come loose .

I worked up 3 loads to try with the new bedding and torque . The rifle shot pretty good and I only had one double group out of 20 groups shot and I'm not sure it was double as much as that's just how the shots hit . I shot some of the smallest groups I've ever shot using IMR 4064 so I'm happy about that . I have already worked up these same loads before but with the old stock issues . I have not looked at my notes or targets from the older loads yet . I will do that after I go to the range tomorrow to confirm what I did tues and I'll be back with a more detailed update .

I took the stock off after and all seemed to hold together just fine . I will not use locktite tomorrow and see if the screws come loose .
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Old October 24, 2013, 03:26 PM   #14
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Glad to hear that Guy--- mess with the tension on the screws a little at a time and see what happens.
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Old October 24, 2013, 08:14 PM   #15
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http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...torque-tuning/
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Old October 26, 2013, 10:39 PM   #16
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OK , went back to the range to confirm the good loads and in fact did confirm they shoot well through my rifle .

Here's the thing . I've now shot 170-ish rounds through the rifle with the action bedded and I don't really see a difference . Yes the rifle is shooting better then it was but I think that has more to do with me making sure the action screws are at a consistent torque then the fact I bed the action . It has not shot the double groups since I've been keeping an eye on the torque as well . I will add I shot 60 rounds yesterday through the rifle and the screws did not come loose ( no locktite ) . It had come loose by then before . Not sure what that means but I have not put to much stock in that at this point .

Sooo I want to be sure there is no difference between the bedded and none bedded actions so I popped the bedding out . I was a little surprised how easy it came out . Light lap with punch and hammer and the whole section popped out ( complete ) . I'm now in the process of working up duplicate loads to do one last test with the rifle set up like it was originally .

My guess is the rifle will do just fine and it is in fact as good as it's ever going to be . I do shoot sub moa with the rifle all the time and yes I do know I should not expect to much more from a stock rifle . It's just when I found I was having the stock issues . I wanted to make sure I tried everything I could do my self to resolve the issue . I believe I've done this .

I'm hoping this whole thing will have come full circle and all I will need to do is keep an eye on the action screws and be sure they are always at the proper torque .

wait a second Did I here that somewhere before

Quote:
Why not just put some Loc-Tite or teflon tape on the screw threads and torque it back down.
Quote:
Hello Metal God- I am with Saltydog on this one. I have 9 Savages now. It seems to be a Savage issue ( loose screws ). I put one dab of Blue Loctite on the screws and it is done.
Quote:
If you want consistantly in receiver to stock pressure, re-torque each screw before you shoot each day.
I'm sure there's a moral to this story somewhere . but like before I refuse to listen - And who knows maybe the gun does not do well on the next test and I start all over . It really was not very hard to do the bedding . It took an hour to bed and 2 min to knock out so no big deal .
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Old October 27, 2013, 07:35 AM   #17
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MetalGod-- I hope ( Am sure it will ) all works out for you. I have never been a fan of Bedding a stock. It would always be my very last resort to do it. It's kinda a toss up as to if it will improve or ruin your acccuracy. I read that action screw article years ago and started checking into it. For me any how I have found action screw tension is much more critical then bedding ever will be. I have never had to bed a rifle yet to get them to shoot sub MOA. I have no wood stocks,so i have never tried them. I did buy the Dog Tracker Stock from Sharp Shooters. Great stock,but must have caught him on a bad day ( Pillars were installed horrable). Fixed that and did the action screws and what a tack driver now. Keep the bedding out, set your screws ( with loctite ) and enjoy your shooting.
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Old October 28, 2013, 07:08 AM   #18
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Told you so.
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Old October 28, 2013, 07:36 AM   #19
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Yes, Metal God, there's a moral to this story.

Best rifle accuracy is the reduction of all variables to as close to zero as possible. One of 'em's keeping the pressure the receiver has against the stock the same from shot to shot. Whatever method you use to do that is going to work just fine. If your stock's dimensions around the receiver as well as the receiver's dimensions do not change with temperature and/or humidity, then go ahead and Loctite your screws in place.

Some match rifles have wave washers between their screw heads and the stock. Once torqued in place, there's minimal change in bedding pressure as the expansion/contraction of materials from temperature changes won't change accuracy nor zero. Bedding pressure's kept virtually the same.
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Old October 28, 2013, 10:27 AM   #20
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One of the things I've noticed while doing all this is the back screw bottoms out . Meaning once I hit 30lbs it stops turning and does not seem to get tighter . The front screw will turn just a little every 5 to 10lbs up to 60lbs or so .

I'm thinking the front of the action continues to wedge it self into the bedding giving it a tighter and tighter fit with each torque . The back does not seem to do that . It does get tighter per turn as you work up to 30lbs but seems to get to 30 faster . Meaning from 20 to 30lbs the back screw turns 1/8 of a turn . While the front screw will turn a 1/4 turn in that same 10lb window . I'm not sure what that means to my whole situation or if either of those thing will cause the rifle to vibrate inconsistently .

That's just something I noticed and thought I'd throw it out there .
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Old October 28, 2013, 02:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
One of the things I've noticed while doing all this is the back screw bottoms out . Meaning once I hit 30lbs it stops turning and does not seem to get tighter . The front screw will turn just a little every 5 to 10lbs up to 60lbs or so .
That's very interesting. The front of the receiver is actually floating above the bedding block, and it is being suspended only by the "rib" on the sides. No wonder they recommend such a low torque setting, and that the front screw has tendency to come loose. I think that's specific in the design of the bedding system. Glass bedding it will negate such feature.

I would use a thin spring washer to keep the front screw front from coming loose. Loctite will work, but it would be a pain to deal with whenever you need to take the rifle apart.

-TL
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Old October 30, 2013, 05:44 PM   #22
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UPDATE

DISASTER

OK maybe not a disaster but the rifle shot so bad today I almost chucked it in the dirt . I started out shooting a load I worked up a little while ago that always shot moa or better . I could not get it to shoot less the 1.5 moa . I brought some Fed GMM with me for reference because I can shoot one little raged hole with it . OOPS not any more , best group might have been 1.3 moa . I played with the torque and nothing seemed to help .

There was one thing that may have saved the day or rifle for that matter . A couple days ago I was looking through all my notes and targets . I noticed something I thought was odd .

38.5gr of any one of three powders with any one of three bullets shot great .
Imr-4895
Viht N-540
IMR 4064
175gr smk
178gr A-MAX
190gr smk

As long as the charge is 38.5gr I can use any of the above in any combo and get great results . All groups were sub moa and about half of those were 1/2 moa or better .

So I loaded some 175gr smk with 38.5gr of IMR-4064 in PPU cases and I loaded 178gr A-MAXs with IMR-4064 in WCC-06 cases . and shot sub moa with both and if I were to guess I'd say the worst was 1/2 moa . So , at least I know the rifle can still shoot . I now just need to confirm and or even find it's happy place .

Although that load does shoot well It does not have the velocity I'm looking for . My notes say those loads are in the low 2,400fps range and I was really hoping for low to mid 2500fps range . Those loads will do 800yds but I was hoping for more
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Old October 30, 2013, 05:51 PM   #23
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The inconsistency is a bit confusing.
In #13, you said the rifle "shot well" after the bedding, but doesn't, now...

I just took a closer look at the pics in #9. The area around the recoil lug looks pretty rough. The rough looking gap in front isn't critical, but the sides and back need to be really "tight". Is it just a bad angle on the pic that makes this area look so rough?
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Old October 30, 2013, 07:04 PM   #24
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It was a little rough and I cleaned that up but thats for not . The rifle seemed to really do no better with it bedded . I was shooting moa or a little better before bedding and I shot pretty much the same with it bedded .

EDIT : I should be more clear about this . I'm comparing it to the best the rifle has ever shot with out bedding . Not just from the point it started shooting double groups and very inconsistent . Yes the rifle is shooting better then when I first notice the loose action screws but not better then it ever has .

I was thinking the reason it was shooting well was that I kept a close eye on the torque . so I popped the bedding back out thinking if the rifle was really not doing any better why have the bedding in there . I talked about this 5 or 6 posts ago . It seems I may have been wrong about that .

I'm a little perplexed my self . Only that I've shot 3 or 4 hundred rounds of GMM thought he rifle and it shot it so well I was a bit amazed . 1/2 moa no problem but now now better then 1.3moa

EDIT : I want to add that I do understand that at each torque setting the rifle can and will shoot different . It appears that I do not have the right torque for GMM or other loads I thought were good . The problem is I never knew what that torque was in the first place . What's frustrating for me right now is I can't seem to find that one good torque setting the rifle once had . 5 months ago the rifle wood shoot moa with just about anything I put through it and 1/2 moa was not uncommon . Now I can't even get GMM to shoot out of it now. I can't tell you how discouraged I was today but like all range trips there is always that one load that blows me away with how great it shoots . That's what keeps me coming back for more heart ache .

Quote:
That's very interesting. The front of the receiver is actually floating above the bedding block, and it is being suspended only by the "rib" on the sides. No wonder they recommend such a low torque setting, and that the front screw has tendency to come loose.
I've been putting some thought to this and think that floating the action has to be bad for the rifle and I'd bet dollars to dough nuts that was what was giving me the double groups .

I did a torque test tonight on the action screws to see at what torque they would stop turning or the action would bottom out . I worked up in 10lb increments from 20lbs . Savage says 40lbs on both screws is what I should do . The front screw stopped turning at 60lbs and the back stopped at 50lbs . As for me saying in a earlier post that the back screw stops at 30lbs . I was wrong but I feel for a good reason . The torque did top at 30lbs until I hit 50lbs and the screw turned again . I had never went that high before because the torque wrench broke at 35 , 40 and 45lbs . There for I thought it was maxed out and I did not want to strip the screw again . . This time I kept going to where my torque wrench was maxed out . Thats over 60lbs but not sure how far the numbers stop at 60 . If I had to guess I'd say somewhere around 70lbs based on the scale on the torque wrench .

One interesting note . When torquing the screws down I can feel the action teeter totter back and forth as it wedged it self in the ribs of the bedding system . More at first then less and less as the action got tighter . I sure would like to see what's going on in there with the recoil lug . I can't Imagen it's staying pressed up against the bedding block the whole time . If the action is not square to the bedding system I don't see how the recoil lug would be square to the block . With the way the action wedges it's self into the bedding system there has to be multiple torque settings that squares the action to the bedding system till it bottoms out . At which time I'd like to think it would be square to the bedding block .

Anyways I just can't see how floating the action on the ribs of the accu-stock is a good idea . There is all kinds of pressures and torque going on when the rifle is fired . I'd think there would be some movement if floated .
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Old October 31, 2013, 03:15 PM   #25
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This is just an observation, I think you went too far on your "Clean Up" The bedding is an impression of the bottom of the receiver. Then, it looks
like you sanded right back down to the flat rail. The clean-up should be limited to the outer edges and not the impression of the receiver. I feel like
You are kinda back where you started.
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