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Old October 22, 2013, 04:17 AM   #26
03Shadowbob
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I wouldn't buy a bow that has everything on it as a package. The accessories are garbage and you will soon change them out. Buy a bare bow and put it together the way you want
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Old October 22, 2013, 08:23 PM   #27
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I own a Bear bow, however not the "entry level" price point but a 2013 Motive 6. That being said last year I told myself if I downed a deer with my worn out 10+ year old PSE Nova that I'd get myself a new one.

My point is the deer I shot this year with a bow that shoots 60+fps faster than my old bow last year has the same result, a dead deer.

The difference is I can hold 74lbs on my new bow a LOT longer due to a LOT higher let off and a LOT deeper valley vs 70lbs on my old bow. Solid stops, lighter package, lots of things make the new one nicer, but obviously aren't required.

When you're bow hunting, half of the fun is getting the game close to you so you don't HAVE to make the long shot. However, I'm confident in the long shot with nicer equipment if needed.

Here's an "old" and "new" pic. My PSE Nova on the left and Bear Motive 6 on the right.


Here's a stand alone of my Motive 6
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Old October 22, 2013, 08:30 PM   #28
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I suggest a recurve and cedar arrows. Then practice instinctive shooting. No fuss, no muss and very satisfying.
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Old October 22, 2013, 09:27 PM   #29
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Why would anyone need to adjust the draw length 2 to 3 inches? Small adjustments of the draw length of a Mathews bow can be made with string and cable twisting (within limits, of course). The installation of a peep sight will change the draw length a very small amount and will require changing the string twisting to assure the peep sight is properly positioned at full draw.

Most choices concerning bow "accessories" for hunting are a function of cost and personal preference, e.g. glove, tab, wrist strap release, hand held release; broadheads; feathers or vanes; bow sights; peep sights; fixed or detachable quiver; string loop; string and cable material; stabilizer; etc.

Purchasing a new or used bow is a matter of choice, availability, price, personal finance, preference and intended use.

I have an Apple Archery bow press and have used it to change strings and cables, peep sights, cam and idler lean, string and cable twists, serving, etc. on my bows and those of a couple of friends.
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Old October 22, 2013, 09:39 PM   #30
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Most when starting out like a compound or crossbow because of simplicity to shoot an animal without tons of practice. My crossbow has a scope. Just pick which crosshair and squeez trigger and start skinning. My compound has a peep sight on string. Line up your peep with your sight pin, which one you need for each distance. I shoot with a release and sqeezing release and then start skinning. But I like everyone else. After killing about 20 deer I too went to a recurve. Adds more challenge and alot more satisfying. Slower but quietier and no gadgets to mess with. You'll figure what you like and when.
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:18 PM   #31
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A hunter in Iowa cannot use a crossbow unless a doctor certifies that the hunter cannot shoot a compound bow (or recurve or long bow).
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Old October 22, 2013, 10:33 PM   #32
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Here in Texas crossbows were illegal to hunt with until about two years ago.
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Old October 23, 2013, 06:32 AM   #33
old roper
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I knew nothing about archery but found good shop in town and I would suggest that if you can and price does vary big time. Archery shop also has indoor range and I use wrist trigger and like rifle triggers some are adjustable.

Good back tension isn't cheap a Carter $150 on up and target shooter just doesn't have one of them and good target bow new with sights/scope/lens,stabilizer,rest runs you well over $2k

I started 2011 got Mission Craze think it was $300. After shooting that a year moved up to the Hoyt Carbon Matrix for hunting and started shooting target with that bow also. Only difference between those two bow is the bells/whistles because you can put that same target site on that bow as match archery shooter uses, same rest buy the best match bow string for it etc.

When I got the Craze I didn't know if I'd like archery but I figure if I did I would buy good sights,rest that way I could put those on another bow which I did put those on the Matrix and I did upgrade the Craze bowstrings after 6mos shooting.

Well good luck
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Old October 23, 2013, 07:28 AM   #34
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Having shot and hunted with both modern (compounds) and traditional (longbows & recurves) archery equipment my advice to you is get a longbow or recurve. I also owned a traditional archery business for a few years.

Here is why I suggest traditional equipment

1) Ease of use lightweight to carry around all day

- Compounds are much heavier and far more complicated to keep running with all the adjustments, pulleys, cams, trigger devices, sights, etc... If one screw comes loose everything is messed and you may spend hours trying to figure out why you cant hit the target.

- Traditional equipment consists of the bow, the string, quiver/arrows and a glove or tab. If you forget your finger protection in camp you can still shoot with bare fingers while hunting.


2) Start up and maintenance costs

- Modern equipment = multiple strings for one bow plus back up strings, string wax, sights, rests, trigger gadgets, kisser buttons, an endless list of bells and whistles

- Traditional equipment = bow, string and one extra string, string wax. (you can add sights but most people go back to instinctive shooting w/o sights


3) Bells and whistles

- Go into any archery shop and you will see isles and isles filled with all kinds of bells and whistles to "improve" your shooting ability using a compound bow or cross bow

- With tradition equipment, if you are not hitting the target, 99% of the time it is your own fault because the equipment lists consists of a bow, a string and a glove or tab. Not much to go wrong.


4) shooting styles/forms

- Modern bows = very disciplined and strict in order to use all the bells and whistles

- Traditional bows = very relaxed and forgiving. Traditional archery equipment has been use on every section of dry land on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years and every tribe or group of people had their own shooting style (split finger, Apache style, pinch finger, thumb, two below, three below, arrow on either side of the string, etc...) and every one of these styles (plus countless others) worked because the shooters took time to learn and master them. My point is you do whatever work FOR YOU! As long as you are hitting the target it doesn't matter what your form looks like


This following statement is purely an observation based on years of playing with both types of bows

- People shooting modern equipment are up tight and always in a hurry to get someplace and stressed out over something

- People shooting traditional are, in general, a nicer, more friendly group of guys and gals out to have fun with the equipment, family and friends.

I may have some traditional books just collecting dust if you want to PM me.
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Old October 23, 2013, 07:57 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz12 View Post

- People shooting modern equipment are up tight and always in a hurry to get someplace and stressed out over something

- People shooting traditional are, in general, a nicer, more friendly group of guys and gals out to have fun with the equipment, family and friends.

I may have some traditional books just collecting dust if you want to PM me.
I dunno, I've met a lot of crabby trad guys that think I'm out to ruin "their" entire deer season cause my compound bow is in the woods.
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Old October 23, 2013, 08:59 AM   #36
Brian Pfleuger
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Traditional archers tend to be very much of the same attitude as traditional muzzle loader shooters. Every one else is doing it wrong and has no skill.

The theoretical disadvantages of modern equipment are like a ghosts. Somebody always believes in them but they never materialize.

I've had exactly one equipment failure in over 20 years of bow hunting. I've never had to tune a bow, never had a broken string or cable, never had a "screw come loose".

Long bow and recurves are so awesome, that's why everybody kept using them when compounds came out... right?

Traditional equipment is extremely difficult to use well. Most shooters will never shoot as well at 10 as they could at 30, even 40, with a compound.

Traditional equipment is for extremely dedicated shooters and entirely inappropriate for most shooters. Most will never put in the time and effort that is required to shoot a deer at even 10 yards with a traditional bow, say nothing of 15,20,25 yards.

Take a peak at competition groups for both styles. Those are the best, most dedicated shooters of both styles. Tell me how the groups compare between the two. Then tell me you can't find a "weekend warrior" with a compound that can't outshoot (or very nearly) the best longbow shooters in that competition.

The only way I'd start an average, new hunter on a traditional bow would be if I wanted them frustrated and giving up the sport.
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Old October 23, 2013, 09:49 AM   #37
Grizz12
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In the 3-d shoots I sponsored everything was set up to reflect real life shooting experiences such as up/down hill, bending in awkward positions, shoot/dont shoot decisions, in other words, positions that forced the bow and shooter to be in a other than vertical position.

Your right, using traditional equipment requires more practice and dedication, its not for everyone. Although most how start out trad and then go to modern usually come back to trad due to the lower cost and simplicity of the set-up.

Quote:
I've had exactly one equipment failure in over 20 years of bow hunting. I've never had to tune a bow, never had a broken string or cable, never had a "screw come loose".
I was already out of modern equipment when you started, so I have no doubt that things have improved over the years. A quick search will show thousands of bells and whistles to add onto a compound bow and thats cool for those who like to play with gadgets.

I enjoy shooting, building bows and arrows, hunting with hand made equipment and sharing that time with like minded people.

Although the success rate is very close if not the same with each set of weapons, Trad guys are into the "hunt" while most modern guys are into the "kill" and antler count. And yes, most trad guys will pass on shots past 20 yards

Read Fred Bear, Glen St Charles, Jay Massey, Howard hill, E. Don Thomas, Saxton Pope (just to name a few) to get a better idea of where I am coming from.
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Old October 23, 2013, 10:31 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz12 View Post
I.

Although the success rate is very close if not the same with each set of weapons, Trad guys are into the "hunt" while most modern guys are into the "kill" and antler count.
.
Its this attitude/assumption that I'm directly referring to... It's the same with a lot of guys I've met, really irks me that people can't just hunt for themselves and quit assuming other ppl have ulterior motives. I couldn't care less if you hunt for blood, antlers, meat or whatever. So long as its legal I say go for it.

Sorry for derailing your thread, but hunters are some of the most jealous, envious and spiteful people I've ever been around. The "us against them" mentality of the hunting community will be its demise.
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Old October 23, 2013, 10:31 AM   #39
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Although the success rate is very close if not the same with each set of weapons,...
I've never seen any official stats on this but I'd bet my house it isn't true on average.

For example, I have a friend who's been in competitive archery since the 1970s. First he shot long bows and recurves then the same with "clickers" then he went to compounds and fingers with "clickers" then compounds and back-tension releases. He's been a national level competitor for 40 years.

His description of long bow hunting is "Most of the time, we were thrilled to have an arrow with hair on it, say nothing of making a kill, say nothing of a "clean" kill. If somebody killed one, it was practically a celebration of a life event."

Now, I have no doubt (none) that there are places where there are so many more deer than there were here, then, that the traditional archers get a fair number of deer. However, just the mere fact that the reasonable ranges are at least double and quite probably triple or more tells me that the success rates can not possibly be remotely close.

Look at it like this. If you have an effective range of 15 yards, you've got 707sq.yards in your effective range. If you have an effective range of 30 yards, you've got 2,827sq.yards in your effective range. All else being equal, just by those numbers alone, you're going to have 4 times as many deer in range. Add in the indisputable fact that an average shooter of both disciplines will shoot much smaller groups at any distance with a compound than a traditional bow and the success numbers go up farther. Even if it's 20 versus 30, you've got more than twice as many deer in range.

My friend is a perfect example. He once told me that he took "a few" deer with a traditional bow. I'll have to ask him the exact number. He just last year made it his 25th consecutive year with at least one deer with his compound. 2 years ago he got 3. I won't be the least surprised if those 3 were as many as he got total with a traditional bow. Remember, he was a national level competitor and hard-core hunter with a traditional bow.
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Old October 23, 2013, 02:47 PM   #40
Grizz12
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Quote:
Sorry for derailing your thread, but hunters are some of the most jealous, envious and spiteful people I've ever been around. The "us against them" mentality of the hunting community will be its demise
Dont be jealous or spiteful of my beliefs, I dont care about yours.

All I want is to be in the woods and not be bothered, I am just as happy with or without a kill...
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Old October 23, 2013, 02:59 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Grizz12 View Post
Dont be jealous or spiteful of my beliefs, I dont care about yours.

All I want is to be in the woods and not be bothered, I am just as happy with or without a kill...
Hardly jealous or spiteful, just tired of hunters acting like their way is better or more legit than the next guys, just cause that's the way they do it.

All anyone wants is to not be bothered in the woods, let alone chastised for using different equipment, or made to feel that their methods are somehow inferior.

Trad guys do it to the compound guys, compound guys do it to the crossbow guys... "Bowhunters" in general do it to the gun guys... It never ends...


Sorry, its just annoying and pathetic all at the same time.

Last edited by Kimber84; October 23, 2013 at 03:17 PM.
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Old October 23, 2013, 03:11 PM   #42
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My way is the best for me and I'm sure your way is the best for you that's why we do it that way. Yes we should stick together as hunters and don't care to try to criticize others ways. You can tell me the latest and best way, I don't care I'm still doing the way I like.
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Old October 23, 2013, 06:05 PM   #43
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I hate to get in this but up hunting this year we made friends with couple of Traditional archers that were camped close to use and both very active in Colorado Bowhunters ASSN in the youth program.

One hunted little more in the back country and he passed on shot that were out of range but wouldn't be a problem for me. I had lot of respect for him knowing his range and not taking the shot and he made his own and bows/arrows and I think he made his own strings too.

No way in the world would I build a bow/arrow just not my cup of tea.
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Old October 23, 2013, 11:41 PM   #44
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As a bad generalization, things got ridiculously easier from 2009 on. A lot of makers added cams that were adjustable for draw length with out changing the entire cam module. A lot of the other technology seems to have been optimized around then as well. You could probably find a very nicely equipped used bow for 500. I'd start in the 5-600 range and see what you like in the new or consignment racks at your local shop.

There's a website called http://compoundbowchoice.com/tools/comparator/
that gives you a lot to think about with recent compound choices.

My buddy and I went elk hunting via archery this fall. I took my elite pulse. He went with his traditional recurve. He saw elk all day long. I saw moose all day long. However, all of his elk were at 35 yards plus, AKA "out of range." So, it's still hunting.

Traditional archery is "cleaner" for sure; and in many ways it's easier also, but when you have a 5x5 standing 40 yards away across a clearing, you might find yourself wishing you had your big boy bow.

Poundage is like "magnum." Everyone thinks bigger is better, but accuracy is still king. If you can put all your arrows into a 4" circle at 40 yards with a 50 lb bow, you'll be fine on a hunt. For a bow, you want nice long valley so you can hold your drawn arrow for some time until you are sure of your target. A bow that wants to jump out of your hand as soon as you draw it back is a bit wearisome.

Now is an odd time to be looking for deals. On one hand, a lot of people are buying bows for this season. On the other, the new bow season models are beginning to come out, so shops are making deals on 2013 bows. Going to a shop might be a good idea. You can find great built bows used on ebay, craigslist, etc in the spring and summer.

Make friends with your local archery shop guys. They are usually evangelists and will talk your ear off giving advice to "the new guy."

edit:
oh, and crossbows are only used in rifle season here in colorado. fyi
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:07 AM   #45
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Whew, and I thought that revolver or auto, or Glock vs 1911, were touchy subjects.
I like and use both compounds and traditional equipment.
Can't hurt to be competent with everything.
There's a fellow in the local archery club that occasionally uses a home made bow of pvc tubing.
He's mighty impressive with it, too.
Is it the bow or the archer that really matters?
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:22 AM   #46
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One thing I haven't heard mentioned is noise. Whatever bow you go with; pick the one that delivers it's shot with minimum noise. Beaver balls on a recurve or a good parallel limb compound will make a huge difference once the shot is let go.
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Old October 24, 2013, 09:34 AM   #47
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Noise is a problem in theory but it does not translate to the real world with modern (compound) equipment. Modern bows are so fast and so quiet that it is no longer a concern. The loudest are quieter than the quietest from a 10 or 15 years ago and the arrow is getting there twice as fast. The sound still gets there first, both from the bow and the arrow in the air, but what matters is whether or not the unalerted animal has time to react, and they don't. You shouldn't be shooting at an alerted animal with archery equipment of any kind.
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Old October 24, 2013, 01:03 PM   #48
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There are deer species that are in condition 1 at all times. Maybe individuals within a given population. Coues whitetail can jump the string by 6 feet for a 20 yard shot. California blacktails are just as jumpy.

I stand by a quiet bow. If you've ever been in your stand, nice and quiet and you cut loose--your bow goes "Ka-Tank!" and I pretty much guarantee the animal will react. Had it happen early on in my archery hunting journey. Get a quiet bow.
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Old October 24, 2013, 01:16 PM   #49
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I'm not arguing that a quiet bow isn't important, it is, but virtually all modern bows are quieter than needed. You'd have to be buying a 10 year old bow for it to matter.

I do not buy, and have done extensive research on the matter, that an unalerted animal can "jump the string" with most any modern bow. There simply isn't time. There is almost always less than 0.25 seconds from release to impact at 20 yards with a modern bow, as little as 0.15 with really fast bows. The difference between the sound's arrival and the arrow is about 0.05 seconds less. That gives an animal between 0.1 and 0.2 seconds to react. That's to START motion. Even if you figure only 0.10 for reaction time, how far can the animal move from a dead stop in AT BEST another 0.10 seconds? That's nearly best case (for the animal). With a really fast bow, the arrow is there before the animal could possibly even BEGIN to move, say nothing of moving far enough to make a good shot into a bad one. In almost all cases, the arrow is in the ground on the other side before the animal reacts.
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Old October 24, 2013, 04:52 PM   #50
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I do believe that a deer could react to the sound of the shot, but not by much.
Even if the animal just flinches, that could be enough to cause a miss or a poorly placed arrow for sure.

Although, in the dead quiet deer woods, the slightest noise sounds like the whole woods is coming down to a deer. So I spent a little money to make it quieter, but not very much ($20) because it won't make that much of a difference.

I only bought those limbsaver stick on dampeners. The ones that look like little mushrooms. They do actually make a difference in noise.
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