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Old October 14, 2013, 10:05 PM   #26
Venom1956
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What you did was fail to follow explicit USPSA rules and range commands. Whether you think you were "safe" or not, at a USPSA match, you need to follow their rules.
Exactly. What I did was habit. Yet not acceptable practice at that range. I'm not complaining or angry. Just an prime example of 'their range their rules' regardless of what I deemed acceptable. I mean how many of us holster a loaded gun each day? I had never done a match prior to that so I simply defaulted to what I knew without thinking.

That's the point I was trying to make.

If possible he could find a range that enforces rules and safety to his liking. Because c'mon most of us here have seen the local Darwin award winner @ the unsupervised range. Sadly here the last one fired a hunting rifle into his sons back a few months ago. (just went off) Thankfully he survived. Our range just barely escaped getting shut down.
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Old October 15, 2013, 07:47 AM   #27
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I shoot at a public range ( Rio Salado ) and I shoot on the public range and not on the high power range.

The public range is pretty tightly controlled and violations of safety rules have resulted in a first time expulsion. Most of the time, the RO only has to talk to you and you get the point.

Some. . .are a little slow on the pickup. We have a lot of off-duty police who are more than willing to help and the Sheriff deputies are never too far away.

It is a great place to shoot.

We will usually have 4 or 5 ROs working every day and more on the holidays when a lot of folks have a day off. The range can get a little crowded then.
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Old October 15, 2013, 08:13 AM   #28
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@Geeterman

I've shot at that range, in fact, that's the main range I go to shoot my M91/30 (when I was still in AZ). Really nice range IMO, the people there are friendly enough, though I typically get the weird eye a lot since I look like a kid.

I've had my fair share of "Hot damn" moments there though, but fortunately, the RO's are on the ball and very strict with such things most of the time.

I just wish it wasn't quite so far of a drive, but then again, in AZ when is getting anywhere not "a bit of a drive"?
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Old October 15, 2013, 10:14 AM   #29
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You have just summarized why I don't shoot on public land... it's frightening how stupid some of the shooters are.
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Old October 15, 2013, 11:11 AM   #30
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There's nothing like a trip to your local range to remind you that gun-ownership isn't for everyone.

Having an RO can be both a blessing and a curse.

It's great to have a referee to determine what is okay and what isn't okay, especially when you get clowns like the OP is talking about. But then you can also get total killjoy ROs on a power-trip who think all ranges need to be run like a military range with all commands coming from the tower.

When you get used to shooting on your own land where you can do whatever you wish and not have to worry about some idiot shooting you, you'll never want to go back to a public range and play figurative (or not so figurative) Russian Roulette with who's next to you.
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Old October 15, 2013, 04:21 PM   #31
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OP-At our range --- AGC at Marriottsville --- our rules stipulate that the range commands should mimic the RSO's commands, when the RSO or match director is not present. With a range with no RSO/match director present...you need a gentlemen's agreement inorder to call a ceasefire. Politely ask the other shooter's if it is okay to call a ceasefire.

With that done...the ceasefire command would go like: CEASEFIRE --- CEASEFIRE, ACTIONS OPEN, MAGAZINES REMOVED, EMPTY CHAMBER INDICATORS INSERTED AND STEP BEHIND THE WHITE {ceasefire} LINE.

With the observation that everybody is compliant...your command would be: THE LINE IS SAFE, YOU MAY GO FORWARD TOO POST OR PULL YOUR TARGETS. DO NOT HANDLE ANY FIREARMS DURING THE CEASEFIRE.

If any perpetrator's were visually caught handling there firearms during a ceasefire, your command would be: NO HANDLING OF FIREARMS DURING A CEASEFIRE. If you've visually observed the illegal act of a shooter performing such a stupid act. Get his range badge or automobile tag number, report the incident to the RSO or range rules committee. NEVER ARGUE WITH A PERSON HOLDING A GUN. If he gets belligerent...call the police.
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Old October 15, 2013, 08:25 PM   #32
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Lunger,

We humans have a natural tendency to believe we have control over situations and that there's "something we can do" - when often there isn't.

You left. That was within your control. You did the right thing.
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Old October 15, 2013, 09:14 PM   #33
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You can always hope that the fact that it was obvious that you left because of him maybe sunk in and started the gears in his brains to tick along what you were trying to explain.
I'd be willing to bet that when the OP left, he turned to his wife and kids and said "I'm glad that jerk left. What was his problem anyway?". I'd also bet he didn't give a second thought to what was said to him. He was teaching his wife and kid how to do it "the right way".
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Old October 16, 2013, 06:43 PM   #34
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OP- you did right by leaving. We do not have public ranges around here. I belong to a private club with a membership of around 500 people. I have never seen such actions as you describe, although I've heard of a few incidents. However these incidents were nothing like what you describe. All new members of my club are required to attend a training class before they are given the combos to the locks on the ranges. There are also cameras installed that record certain areas. Each member of the club acts as a RO when they are shooting. I've met many members and have personally found all to be safe and courteous. The rules are spelled out very well. Failure to obey them will get you banned. Permanently.
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Old October 16, 2013, 06:55 PM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
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I've never been to a public range, there aren't any around here. I have to say though, that if I was at a range, clearly and completely with ONE other shooter, and he started yelling range commands... I'd probably be the one leaving. I don't know what's standard practice anywhere else but I've never seen anything like that even with 2 or 3 other shooters.

The ranges I've belonged to don't have RSOs at any time. The shooters are responsible to communicate. We do it like this:

I'm done shooting. I want to check targets. I wait for one of the other shooters to stop shooting.

Me: "Yo, I need to change targets, that cool?"

Him: "Yep". He stops shooting when he's empty and doesn't reload.

Next guy is done, one of us yells down "Hey, need to check targets quick. Cool?"

He says "Yep" and puts down the gun.

We go check targets.

The rules about handling/loading/pointing/ are printed on the wall. Their expected to be followed and there are procedures for if they're not.

Yelling out range commands to... no one... is just odd, IMHO. You'd be seen as a loon around here. Other areas/ranges can do what they want but I don't see how it makes it any safer unless there's so many shooters that one on one communication is impossible/impractical.
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Old October 16, 2013, 09:13 PM   #36
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^^^^^^+1^^^^^^

I too would be a little weirded out if it was me and someone else on the range and they started yelling range commands at me. As stated above a simple "hey can I check my target" would be fine. But, hey what ever works for ya. Of course all are DNR ranges in MI have RSO's.
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Old October 17, 2013, 12:01 PM   #37
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Yelling out range commands to... no one... is just odd, IMHO. You'd be seen as a loon around here. Other areas/ranges can do what they want but I don't see how it makes it any safer unless there's so many shooters that one on one communication is impossible/impractical.
I gotta tend to agree. Screamin' like a drill sergeant when there is no one other than a man and his wife/child shooting one gun seems a bit on the excessive side, and may very well lead others to question your intelligence. Add to that, perhaps the man did not have a clue what the shouted range commands meant. Again, common language at a social tone in a polite and friendly manner would probably done more good. Seeing as the other folks were there first, they should have been the ones to give commands. Johny come latelies that want to take over the range tends to tick me off too.

Quote:
I asked if ok to put up targets.I yelled Hold your fire all clear guns down.
Again, seems a tad excessive to ask the only person there if it's okay to put up a target and then when given the okay, to shout range commands to empty benches. Seems you may have been trying too hard to impress the guy and his wife. This is the common story line I see in the majority of these "dumb guy at the range", Dumb guy at Gander Mountain" or "dumb gal at the counter in Wal-Mart" threads. The OP tries to impress on everyone how much superior they are to that "dumb person", either in intelligence or skill. I often wonder if the reason they get ignored by those "dumb" folk is because those folk don't like being talked down to or having range commands shouted at them for no reason from wannabee RO folks they don't know. If someone is acting dangerously at the range, I have no problem pointing out the issue. Many times it is inexperience and not intentional. Most times when given constructive criticism in a polite and friendly way, folks respond in a positive way. Talk down to them and yell and they get defensive.....especially if they are if front of friends and/or family. With so many folks new to the shooting sports showing up at our local ranges, we need to address them and their shortcomings positively and courteously. One always catches more flies with sugar than vinegar. There are always the few AHs that know it all and won't listen. That's when you need to walk away.
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Old October 17, 2013, 01:58 PM   #38
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2 things wrong....

When my good friend purchased a NIB Ruger LCR .38spl revolver about 3 months ago he was a new gun owner/entry level shooter.
As he took the Ruger LCR out of the box to show me, I told him to stop & that he was doing 2 things wrong.
He had his index finger on the trigger & the revolver's cylinder was closed.
I calmly explained to him not to put his finger on the trigger until he was ready to fire & to always open/check a firearm before you hand it to anyone/handle it.
He acknowledged my safety instructions & said he needed to learn proper gun safety methods.
You don't need to be a safety nazi or talk down to new shooters but you can advise them on good(safe) methods.

Remember: the right way is the safe way, .

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Old October 17, 2013, 02:59 PM   #39
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Of course all are DNR ranges in MI have RSO's.
I'm assuming you're not aware of it, but there are public ranges in Michigan that do not have any RSO's whatsoever. Only the occasional DNR officer drives through(and not on a daily basis even) and makes sure folks are complying with the target specific rules. Look up The Pit in Lapeer if you need an example.

I too use the DNR ranges that you're familiar with as well as go out onto state land and target shoot.
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Old October 17, 2013, 04:02 PM   #40
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"... Trying to stay calm I put my safety on, Cleared my gun and yelled hold your fire all clear even if we were the only two shooting. He looked at me like I was nuts ..."

If I were at the range and the only other shooter present did that rather than just talk to me, I would look at them like they were nuts, too.
Me too. I just would have went over and talked to him.
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Old October 17, 2013, 04:58 PM   #41
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PM sent Closing the Gap
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Old October 17, 2013, 07:13 PM   #42
ClydeFrog
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Funding, budgets, $$$....

As programs are cut & funding is lowered, Id prepare for any local public ranges to either cut staff or scale back the budgeted hours/resources.
One large range about 45min from me is going through a major over-haul/upgrade.
The county government website says it won't reopen until approx Dec 2013.
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Old October 18, 2013, 02:48 PM   #43
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I am not so sure guys. It's easy to say he was being overly dramatic but remember the story has a beginning and it didn't start out well. Right off the bat the guy is pointing his gun in every direction but the proper one, you shouldn't forget that. Such a thing would make me prickly real quick. You act relaxed and professional with others who do the same. When you are with people who don't get the rules then behavior must change to suit.
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Old October 18, 2013, 04:05 PM   #44
Brian Pfleuger
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People don't behave because you're loud and strange.

I don't play "teach the idiot" with gun safety. When he pointed it at me and said "it ain't loaded.", I'm gone. I'm not going to hope he won't shoot me if I yell the rules real loud.
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Old October 18, 2013, 04:52 PM   #45
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There is yelling and there is yelling. This is the written word and it has it's limitations. I suppose the OP could have explained it better by saying "I called out range commands at a clear and unprovocative 46 decibels." And then we would all know that he was actually yelling at the guy. Why you have to assume that his "..hold your fire ... all clear" was over the top?
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Old October 18, 2013, 04:55 PM   #46
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Lunger it really sounds to me like you did all you could. Some people don't want to listen or learn, and when their family or friends are nearby it makes them even more hard headed.

I've mostly shot at public ranges and over the years I have only seen a few safety violations so bad that I felt I had to say something. To those peoples credit they listened and all was good afterwards. Someday I'm sure I'll find someone like you did though and I'll do just what you did, leave.
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Old October 18, 2013, 05:59 PM   #47
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Just speaking for myself.. I don't expect people at public ranges without a range officer to conduct themselves in any formal fashion. As far as "what would I do".. I would keep to myself and leave if others seemed dangerous.
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Old October 18, 2013, 07:11 PM   #48
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcpiper View Post
There is yelling and there is yelling. This is the written word and it has it's limitations. I suppose the OP could have explained it better by saying "I called out range commands at a clear and unprovocative 46 decibels." And then we would all know that he was actually yelling at the guy. Why you have to assume that his "..hold your fire ... all clear" was over the top?
I assume it's over the top because, one, there were only two people present. The other person is obviously oblivious, actively in violation and noncompliant. The only other person to "yell" to is... yourself.

Second, he said "Yell". I assume yell means yell. If I "said" something, I don't say I "yelled" it. If I "said" something, I don't expect an entire firing line (even an empty one) to hear it. The entire firing line was clearly intended to hear it, I assume "yelled" means "yelled".

Even if it were whispered, one guy is down range, he's not touching or clearing or anything else his guns. So, the range commands you're whispering are for... You?

It's strange and if someone did it, I'd be leaving. Maybe it's 100% normal where you are or where the OP is. If so, awesome. Do your thing. Around here, people WOULD think you were nuts.
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Old October 19, 2013, 06:09 PM   #49
lunger
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(6) When more than one person is using the range, a range officer shall be designated.

Rule 6 posted on Pa game commission Ranges. Also listed on large easy to read signs are all the rules that were broken

I wasn't about to let this guy be range officer

Yelling or a loud clear voice a better way of saying it is necessary when ear protection is worn

I was not acting like a drill Sargent. If it came across like that in my OP that was not the case

He and I were not the only ones on the range. His wife and kid were there also with multiple firearms being handled

I am amazed that what you took away from my story that I had a handgun pointed at me.
A person walked out on a live range.Chambered a live round on a clear range in my direction

And I am out of line for following the rules
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Old October 20, 2013, 12:49 PM   #50
FireForged
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I don't play "teach the idiot" with gun safety. When he pointed it at me and said "it ain't loaded.", I'm gone. I'm not going to hope he won't shoot me if I yell the rules real loud
I agree...

on a side note, I have never observed any overtly dangerous gun practices at my local public range and at the same time, I have never heard anyone shout commands. I totally agree that if someone is acting dangerously, I am going to simply leave.
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