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Old October 10, 2013, 05:58 AM   #1
rebs
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crimping 223 reloads ?

I read that flyers can be caused by case neck tension. Will using a crimp eliminate flyers ?
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Old October 10, 2013, 07:08 AM   #2
oldpapps
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Come on.... Again.

Best thing to do is try it. Then you will know first hand.

Different loading require different things. Don't 'roll-crimp' if the bullet doesn't have a cannalure. My experience is it just adds another variable to the mix. Annealing should/can/might help, but again, try it to make your own determination.

Enjoy,

OSOK
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Old October 10, 2013, 07:13 AM   #3
Bart B.
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I don't think neck tension causes fliers unless it's way, way too much or has a very wide range of tension (or force needed to push the bullet out). If that's happening, muzzle velocity will be very high do to very high peak pressures. Therefore, I don't think crimping will help with this issue.

Crimping holds bullets in place more securely and is only advantageous when really heavy bullets are used in box magazine bolt guns as well as standard bullets with cannelures in full auto machine guns. It typically degrades accuracy as it adds another varible in the ammo. It also deforms bullets very slightly unbalancing them.

I don't think the .223 Rem, or any cartridge less than 35 caliber, needs crimped in bullets. And only when there's a cannelure groove cut or knurled in the bullet.

How far are those "fliers" going from your point of aim?
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Old October 10, 2013, 08:08 AM   #4
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Fliers can be caused by a lot of things.

First, what do you mean by "Flyers"? How far from the main group and at what distance are you shooting?

Is this your AR?

If so, are you using a horrible stock trigger, that could cause flyers.

Are you using a good bench and rest or a bypod?

Are your fliers with all powder/bullet combos or just certain ones?

Do you get these flyers with factory ammo?

Are you using all the same Headspamped brass?

Are you using Quality Match or Target bullets or cheap FMJ bullets?

Are your optics of good quality and are the mounts all secure and tight?
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Old October 10, 2013, 10:25 AM   #5
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This is with my Ar ith a RRA 2 stage trigger. I shoot one goup and its under an inch, then another group will have 4 with in an inch and 1 off by an inch and a half or more. This seems to happen with any of my reloads. I am using Hornady 55 gr fmjbt's, 55 gr soft points and as well with Hornady 68 gr bthp match bullets. I don't get real consistancy. I am using H335 powder. Shooting with a bipod and the brass is all lake city.

Last edited by rebs; October 10, 2013 at 10:31 AM.
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Old October 10, 2013, 01:06 PM   #6
Bart B.
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Maybe it's not the ammo's fault.
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Old October 10, 2013, 01:13 PM   #7
rebs
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I just shot 40 rounds of American Eagle factory rounds through it, the groups were alittle bigger but only had 1 flyer. Maybe its something I am doing when I shoot ? I am going to take the Leupold scope off and put my Nikon scope on it and see what happens.
I am open to any suggestions.

Last edited by rebs; October 10, 2013 at 01:37 PM.
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Old October 10, 2013, 05:22 PM   #8
Bart B.
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Maybe you're holding the rifle a bit different for each shot.

Maybe you're jerking, flinching, flicking your finger off the trigger or other stuff as you fire. You can tell if this happens by having someone else hand you the rifle that they've either loaded or not loaded (so you cannot see which) then you go into position, aim it then pull the trigger. If you see the scope's reticule wiggle and jump as the firing pin falls, you're jerking, flinching, or flicking your finger off the trigger (ask you buddy to watch your trigger finger) or other stuff. Learn to hold still with the trigger back against its stop until the rifle quits moving from recoil.
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Old October 10, 2013, 11:16 PM   #9
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On my 223 reloads I use a Lee FCD even with 60, 65, and 69gr bullets that don't have a cannelure and most definitely with 55gr fmj with a cannelure. Not a full crimp but a light crimp and a very light crimp on non cannaelure bullets. My opinion is it evens the neck tension and aids in accuracy. My AR shoots sub-moa and my mini-14 right around moa so I doubt it degrades accuracy unless you are deforming the bullet with too much crimp. Peace of mind, Priceless.
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Old October 11, 2013, 04:28 AM   #10
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IMHO if you are getting fliers with everything you shoot, it's not an ammo or "crimp" problem. Could be a rifle problem or most likely a shooter problem.

Can you have another experienced shooter take your rifle to the bench and shoot several rounds/groups? This may help diagnose the problem.
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Old October 11, 2013, 07:27 AM   #11
rebs
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I am heading to the range this morning and will have a friend shoot my rifle and see if he gets flyers or not. That should either eliminate me as the problem or show it is the ammo or the rifle
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Old October 11, 2013, 08:23 AM   #12
jwrowland77
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crimping 223 reloads ?

If it's the ammo, my train of thought would be that you just haven't found "The" load for your rifle yet. Tweak powder charges, weigh bullets, tweak OAL. Just my first thoughts.


Edit: I agree with steve, try some different bullets, powders, etc. that's what makes this hobby so much fun.

Last edited by jwrowland77; October 11, 2013 at 08:46 AM.
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Old October 11, 2013, 08:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
I am using H335 powder.
Is this the only powder you have tried?

Personally, I have not had good luck with it, although many, many handloader have.

I would start with a different powder, my fav=748 and some Sierra Match or Hornady V-Max or Nosler BT. The Hornady 55gr FMJ are good FMJ bullets, but are not going to deliver BR type accuracy like the Sierra's can.
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Old October 11, 2013, 11:05 AM   #14
rebs
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These are my targets from this morning. I would like to hear your opinions about these group and where I should go from here as far as loads and my shooting


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Old October 11, 2013, 11:24 AM   #15
Bart B.
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I don't see enough difference between them to tell which load will produce the best accuracy. In my opinion, each load will produce groups those sizes with several 5-shot groups of each.

A single 5-shot group only has about 50% probability of representing the group size all shots with that load will go into.
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Old October 11, 2013, 11:55 AM   #16
steve4102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs
then another group will have 4 with in an inch and 1 off by an inch and a half or more. This seems to happen with any of my reloads.
I don't see this in the target you just posted. I see some groups better than others, but I don't see the 1-1 1/2 inch fliers.

Quote:
I would like to hear your opinions about these group and where I should go from here as far as loads
You could try crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp die. It tightened things up for me.



It also tightened things up for these guys.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html
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Old October 11, 2013, 01:55 PM   #17
rebs
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By looking at the groups and the powder amount can you tell which way I should proceed to find the most accurate load ?

Also the LC cases I am loading I bought from a guy on another site, there were sold as once fired fully prepped LC and were even annealed. When I load them most feel the same when I seat the bullet, aome the bullet seats much easier/ Would that have the effect of looser groups ?
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Old October 11, 2013, 02:05 PM   #18
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Sorry, no I can't read your notes on the target. I blew it way up and I can guess what it says, but guessing wouldn't help you much. Hopefully others on here with better eyes can read what each target represents.
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