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Old October 12, 2013, 10:39 AM   #51
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Old, perhaps still relevant, article.


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Old October 12, 2013, 10:42 AM   #52
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Lots of old saying still hold pretty true.

heard "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight", agree, pretty much. One I haven't heard here (yet) and that I always thought was pretty accurate also;

"The winner of a knife fight goes to the hospital, the loser goes to the morgue."

Knives are deadly, no mistaking that. Knives don't have to be big to be deadly. But unless you are skilled at throwing them, knives are not dangerous beyond contact distance.

Which is why knives are not as good a deterrent to a determined attacker as a gun.

If an attacker is at arms reach before I realize I am under attack, and I have no weapon in my hands, they I will use the weapon that is always on the end of my arms. Hands. And everything else nature provided, to get enough time to draw a weapon. Gun preferred, knife if no gun, pen, keys, anything as I can.

A wise fellow once told me "never hit a man with your fist unless you are stark naked and both feet are nailed to the floor". Took me a while to figure out just what he meant (not the literal meaning).

Guns are very, very useful for self defense. Knives are very useful for cutting things. Cutting things can be an effective defense, but takes more skill and physical capability to be effective than a gun does.

If I have a gun, I'm going to use it, over a knife. If I only have a knife, I'll use it over bare hands. If I only have bare hands, by preference, I'll use my feet. I prefer the Miyagi defense when ever possible.
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Old October 12, 2013, 10:48 AM   #53
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To quote Pax;
"I have done quite a bit of force on force and other types of training with a trained "knife guy." My observation has been that nobody can attain that level of skill from one or two weekend classes, and very few people will put in the effort it takes. Those who have attained that level of skill know who they are, because they have worked to get there and they know what they themselves can or can't do. The rest of the folks reading this thread, the ones who are wondering – they are not that guy. They will fit easily within the norms shown in the statistics."

I started training in martial arts when I was 12. I was shooting when I was 8.
I got a LOT more training later as a US Marine and later still working for DOD in both improvised weapons and firearms use.

I have now been training men and women to fight since I was 24 years old, and I am now 57. So I have been using firearms for 49 years and been practicing martial arts for 45 years, and training others in those skills for 33 years.
So I have learned a bit about it.

PAX is correct in her statement!

I would point out one more time that this whole discussion is about fighters and NOT about the kind of weapon used.

It's always going to be an issue of training and mindset FAR more than it is about the kind of weapon used.

I say again from my earlier post

There is no inherent virtue in a weapon.
The virtue and abilities are in the man or woman.

The knife or the gun are just tools.
Tools don’t DO work,
they are worked with.
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Old October 12, 2013, 06:58 PM   #54
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I'd take a knife to fight to my pistol and a pistol to fight to my rifle.
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Old October 12, 2013, 07:11 PM   #55
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Hurumph...

If I don't have a gun (or my gun is inoperable) I'm gonna use whatever comes to hand.

It may be a knife. It may be a rock. It may be my elbow. If I'm at work, it may be the big honking handle of the plastic flexilead, or it may one half a pooper scooper.

If your attacker is within arms reach, then you better already be fighting with whatever you've got. It's not a point in time to get picky.
If you want to be picky about your self defense, then you have to be prepared. So if you want to depend on a knife, best get some real training now.

I'd prefer to depend on a heavy gun that I can use as a bludgon if it fails to fire, and baring that, the fact that I'm mean enough and stubborn enough fight tooth and nail and hope for the best.

There are no garentees.
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Old October 12, 2013, 10:07 PM   #56
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Quote:
Which is better to have for self defense, a gun or a knife at arm's length distance at night?
G1R2,

I can see the Jim Bowie fans thinking about his duel in the warehouse when he fought a guy and under the terms they would come at night and in stocking feet.

Any weapons was allowed.

He, of course, brought his famous knife.

But, that was in the flintlock days, and times and weapons have changed.

A gun has the advantages of being good at any range, close or far. One does not have to slash or stab or even reach out toward someone. Just turn the barrel by a flick of the wrist and fire, repeatedly. It can be done from the hip, or in retention. Can be aimed at the legs, pelvis, on up to the head. One can fire a gun at arms length from many attitudes.

I'd just take a sub-compact Glock.

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Old October 12, 2013, 10:30 PM   #57
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Quote:
If I don't have a gun (or my gun is inoperable) I'm gonna use whatever comes to hand.
The question wasn't whether or not to use a knife if that's all that comes to hand. The question was:

"Which is better to have for self defense?"

Given the choice between a handgun or a knife for self-defense, it would have to be a strange set of circumstances before the knife would be a better choice.
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Old October 12, 2013, 10:33 PM   #58
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John, it was a little tounge in cheek, but I'm definatly in the "gun is better" camp.

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Old October 12, 2013, 10:43 PM   #59
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Sorry, it can be hard to pick up on that kind of thing sometimes from the printed (typed) word.

I actually really like knives. I almost always have a knife or two on me. I also believe in carrying a knife for self-defense because it beats fingernails and teeth as a backup or for when guns aren't available.

That said, I'm very aware of their limitations. I used to fence in another life, and I have also spent some time doing knife sparring and both left me with a lasting and strong hope that I never have to rely on a knife for self-defense. They can save your bacon, but the outcome won't be a happy ending unless you get very, very lucky.

I actually know of one person who killed an attacker in self-defense using his knife. He eventually committed suicide as a result.
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Old October 12, 2013, 10:56 PM   #60
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Knives have other benifets that merit having one on your person all the time, anyway.
It's not unreasonable that someone should have a handy knife in a SD scenario.

All my practical SD training is with firearms.
Other then that, the only thing I know is to be mean, go for weak spots and use whatever you get your hands on.

I know that any attacker that comes after me is going to be bigger, have much more upper body strength and my only advatage is going to be that if he's intrested in rape rather then just outright killing me, he's not trying to kill me when I'm trying to kill him.

Therefore, I tend to be a little snippy when it comes to what I perseve as a more "macho" approch to self defense. SD is about putting down a threat as quickly and as effeciently as possible, which is where a gun comes in handy. Always.

Again. There are no garentees. The best we can do is give ourselves the greatest advantage possible.
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Old October 13, 2013, 11:23 AM   #61
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I recently was at the TX Bar CLE meeting (with JohnKSa) - we had chicken for lunch. They gave us silverware in a napkin. But I had no knife in my set. Since I was the lunch presenter - I had to eat quickly so I could get up to talk and didn't want to go get a knife in another room.

My choice was to shoot my chicken to edible pieces or use my Spyderco to cut my chicken.

Does this answer the question of whether your gun is a 'tool'?
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Old October 13, 2013, 12:45 PM   #62
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JohnKSa wrote:
Quote:
The question wasn't whether or not to use a knife if that's all that comes to hand. The question was:

Quote:
"Which is better to have for self defense?"

I believe the OP was:



Quote:
Which is better to have for self defense,
a gun or a knife at arm's length distance at night?
The whole day/night thing not withstanding, I think that is an important distinction. While the handgun, in most but the direst of circumstances, would be the obvious choice and, offer the greatest advantage, the scenario described is a bit focused.

If the attacker is already at "arms distance" as someone else pointed out:

Quote:
If your attacker is within arms reach, then you better already be fighting with whatever you've got.
True Dat ! If the person is already that close, you are likely already grappling, fending punches, or dodging a blade. Hopefully you can create some space, and be able to deploy the firearm, A blade of your own might be the only tool you can use to create that space. I know from my own experience that I can deploy the blade clipped to my front pocket more quickly, and with less space, than I can draw from concealment, and certainly could do it easier while still actively fighting. YMMV, of course.

Within the given parameters, the knife might be the best option, if I can only choose one.
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Old October 13, 2013, 04:49 PM   #63
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Quote:
Posted by OuTcAsT: I know from my own experience that I can deploy the blade clipped to my front pocket more quickly, and with less space, than I can draw from concealment, and certainly could do it easier while still actively fighting.
You may be able to deploy it, but can you effectively slash the necessary tendons with it from your defensive position at night before being overcome?

I would prefer shooting from a pocket.
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Old October 13, 2013, 05:48 PM   #64
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Just a reminder what a knife can do

A friend sent me these photos. The guy in the photos is an LEO trained in hand-to-hand combat and attempted to disarm a guy with a knife. I guess the result of this attempt is the reason why LEOs simply shoot these guys.

Attachment 92256
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Old October 13, 2013, 10:54 PM   #65
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If the handgun is already deployed then I'd say that's the obvious choice. You'd be surprised at how affective a knife is at a very close distance.

http://youtu.be/QbnSTW7Ar44
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Old October 14, 2013, 06:47 AM   #66
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Quote:
You may be able to deploy it, but can you effectively slash the necessary tendons with it from your defensive position at night before being overcome?
That IS the general idea, I will slash, stab, and rip any part of the attacker I possibly can to get him off of me. I'm reasonably sure the same method works in daylight as well

Quote:
I would prefer shooting from a pocket.
Agreed, however pocket carry is not usually an option for me for several reasons, particularly during warmer months.
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Old October 14, 2013, 08:20 AM   #67
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Quote:
I would prefer shooting from a pocket.
Since this is your preference, Im assuming you regularly practice doing so (be it drawing from a pocket, or shooting through it) at the range with live ammo and in a realistic manner, at realistic targets. If you dont, what makes you think youll be able to do it without thought when your focus is elsewhere?

For me, the thought of getting caught up close, with my hand buried in a pocket, especially one that required I draw the gun (or knife, or whatever), to use it, is not a pleasant thought. Might as well have that arm tied behind my back.

I think some are going to have to face the fact, that until you can do something to generate distance so you can get to and deploy your gun, you may well have to drop back to a secondary, or even third line of planning/skills (you have at least a secondary, right?), and be able to flow fairly fluidly into them.

I think if you want to be realistic about all this, you need to have at least a basic base in some other skills, and understand, that just like shooting, "everything" has specific targets that need to be focused on, to obtain specific results. Having some actual "hands on" experience also quickly shows that those "fixed" plans you have in your head (you know, the ones where you always come out the winner ), generally go to scheiße when the other guys plan, doesnt do what your plan expects.
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Old October 14, 2013, 09:07 AM   #68
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Either would work for me. I have trained with knives most of my life. During the academy we did a little experiment. The officer was supposed to draw his blue gun while I had a blue knife with chalk on the blade at arms length. Before he could get his gun out of the holster single retention by the way. I had cut both of his carotid arteries as well as his right femoral artery. He would have bleed out within seconds. I carry a Ka-bar TDI every day on my weak side hidden by my gun belt to stop gun grabs. On a side note I have been involved in a real knife fight and I did in fact bleed. It ended quickly when I front kicked him and broke his ribs he folded like a cheap tent but he did cut me. I still have the scar.
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Old October 14, 2013, 10:42 AM   #69
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It's been a good discussion, but it doesn't look like anything new is really coming up. So we'll close this one now.
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