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Old October 4, 2013, 11:32 AM   #1
Jmcdaniel0
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First AR/Hunting Gun

Ok Folks, I am in the market for a low priced AR. I plan on using it for occasional plinking, but primarily for coyote and wild hog hunting. I have used a single shot New England Fire Arms Handi Rifle for years with great success. However,after going hunting year after year with my buds, I am finally giving into my gun envy. Since my Birthday is coming up in December, my wife (the Comptroller in General) has allotted me 650.00 to get what I want. There is a huge Gun and Knife show that comes to my town every year, and I am pretty certain I can get a better deal than these but if not, they all fall under my price range. I am leaning towards the DPMS Panther Oracle, Due to Price point, the forward assist and dust cover being included.... What do you all think????

So far I have been doing research and found these:

1. Bushmaster C15 at http://www.slickguns.com/product/bus...dot-30rd-76995 for 649.00 free shipping

2. DPMS Panther Oracle 16” with Forward Assist and Dust Cover. At http://www.kygunco.com/dpms-panther-...nd-black-36744 Free Shipping 599.00

3. SMITH AND WESSON MP-15 SPORT 5.56 RIFLE. At http://www.sportsmansoutdoorsupersto....cfm/ID/104547 619.00 Free Shipping

4. DPMS Panther Sportical http://www.kygunco.com/dpms-panther-...al-rifle-32901 659.99 free shipping
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Old October 4, 2013, 03:06 PM   #2
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I've been a DPMS owner for a while and they are good weapons.

But I think you'd be better served with the Smith M&P in the that lineup.

DPMS uses some non-mainstream processes in their build such as a screw-in pin for the mag release instead of a standard roll pin.

It's no big deal till one attempts to remove the pin. Its a small point, but significant.
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Old October 4, 2013, 04:03 PM   #3
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How east would it be to ad rails to to the s&w? I will need a light and I want a fore grip.

Also, the lack of a dust cover and forward assist worries me. I do a lot of my hunting in Tx and Alabama, the dirt there is more sand than dirt and gets into everything. The forward assist is one of those things you don't think us important until you need it. As a former air assault trooper, I have need of both, and I place high value on them.
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Old October 4, 2013, 05:25 PM   #4
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Non-floating foregrips are a breeze to swap. Or, you can attach rails to the existing grip.

Dust cover ... I just don't see it as a deal breaker, either way. I've hunted pigs in south Texas and have yet to drag my gun through muck and dirt.
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Old October 4, 2013, 05:42 PM   #5
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All those will serve you well.

But I'd recommend the S&W or other option that has a front sight post. That will save you from having to get one on your own and it doesn't noticeably obstruct any optics you put on the gun.

But do be wary of shooting pigs with a 5.56, as it can be a bit weak for the big ones. One thing you can do is get a 7.62x39 upper for your AR and it will be quite a pig slayer.

I wouldn't worry too much about the forward assist. In all my years shooting both in the military and in civilian life with the AR platform, I've never had to use it. And though I'm OCD about closing my dust-cover, I'm not sure what difference that makes.
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Old October 4, 2013, 06:02 PM   #6
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Any of them will do. And you can change out the parts to what you want.

Here is a C-15, I changed the Butt Stock to a MOE, the pistol grip to a Houge, replaced the hand guard with a UTG quad rail, added a flashlight holder attached to the gas port, added a bi-pod & vertical grip. Total cost with all the changes Less than $750.00. I paid $599.00 for the C-15. It came with a TRS-25 red dot, hard case, two mags and riser. Added a 3 point sling.

Jim

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Old October 4, 2013, 07:29 PM   #7
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Ok with all that being said, should I get the bushmaster or s&w? I have a bunch of bad reviews on bushmaster, but I always thought they were a reputable brand?
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Old October 4, 2013, 08:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmcdaniel0
Ok with all that being said, should I get the bushmaster or s&w? I have a bunch of bad reviews on bushmaster, but I always thought they were a reputable brand?
The old Bushmaster was good. Then Cerberus bought the company in 2006 since then they are just DPMS with a different roll mark and premium price tag. The old Bushmaster is back in business as Windham Weaponry.
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Old October 4, 2013, 09:25 PM   #9
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Ok I'm going to keep doing some erase arch, I have until Nov. 2 before the gun show. I want to go in with the exact model I'm looking for. Right now I'm leaning towards the S&W. I really just want to pull the trigger so to speak, but the comptroller in chief, the one who must not be disobeyed, says I must wait. I once disobeyed her wishes and bought a Saiga 12 with our her permission... Ooh what a month that was.
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Old October 4, 2013, 10:56 PM   #10
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I hunt pigs with a mini14... .223 works on them effectively, just don't put a bullet in the pooper and expect it to go down.....

I wouldn't worry about a dust cover too much... It is possible to have a mesquite twig enter the receiver on firing( don't ask) .. But the cover will be open at that point any way...
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Old October 5, 2013, 12:16 AM   #11
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Rick,

The rifle I have been using is a New England Firearms .223 single shot breach loader. Mad accurate, nearly indestructible. But I find my self needing follow up shots where I have been hunting recently, mainly due to terrain, it's more close up, quick shots vs. the more open long shots the NEF is perfect for. It is truly a one shot one kill rifle.

I don't know if a dust cover is essential or not. The kind of terrain I hunt in seems to justify it. However I highly doubt I'm going to be getting unserious muck, and I always carry a basic cleaning kit anyhow.
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Old October 5, 2013, 12:38 AM   #12
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First AR/Hunting Gun

Buy a Sig M400 at your local Walmart, it will be the best deal you will find.

Last edited by ripnbst; October 5, 2013 at 12:48 AM.
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Old October 5, 2013, 01:12 AM   #13
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The worst I've had happen is occasionally poking the muzzle in the dirt going up a steep embankment I installed a super long muzzle brake on my mini14 and if I do it keeps it out of the barrel lol
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Old October 5, 2013, 11:24 AM   #14
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Rip,

That's well out of my price range. I Do like a sig though.

I intend on installing a longer muzzle break for that reason, I have had that issue once or twice with my current hunting rifle.

I'm still doing research, but so far I am leaning towards the S&w. It seems to fit my price point well. I have my local gun guy, getting me his best price on one now, he said he can have it in in about a month or so,
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Old October 5, 2013, 11:48 AM   #15
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That rifle should suit you well, the only thing I noticed is that it didn't list the twist rate...

Since you say coyotes and hogs, 1:9 works well as a variety of bullets work acceptably in them.

I use a Primos red lensed varmint light that I adapted to 12v and put an H3 motorcycle bulb in it. Powered from a 12v feeder battery in a fanny pack... I also put a cigarette lighter outlet to charge my iPhone lol...

In addition to that, I have a subzero green laser illuminator, but dispite claims, it doesn't work in the cold.... And it's half the cost of a rifle... Works great above 32deg
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Old October 5, 2013, 12:08 PM   #16
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I have been considering a longer than 16" barrel down the road anyhow, so I'll keep the 1:9 in mind. I believe the MP-15 come standard in 1:8, but I'll need to double check that. The more I look the more I like it.

Edit:

Here is where I read it:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...on-mp15-sport/
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Old October 5, 2013, 05:34 PM   #17
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First AR/Hunting Gun

I would advise you stick with the 16" barrel. It handles very neutral and with your price restrictions most guns worth owning with a longer barrel will be out of your price range.

Barrel twist 1:9 is advisable if you will be shooting light varmint bullets at coyote.
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Old October 5, 2013, 07:30 PM   #18
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First AR/Hunting Gun

Have you checked out PSA Armory? They have really good deals.
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Old October 5, 2013, 08:00 PM   #19
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Ok. I'll keep that in mind. I will here back from my local guy on Monday on his price. I've known him for years, and I'll pay a smidge more to give him the business I will. However, I am limited on what I can spend, so I'll just have to see.
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Old October 5, 2013, 08:35 PM   #20
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Of the choices you listed I think the S&W Sport would be the best choice. I have a couple Sporticals and they are great in my hands as hunting rifles despite all the DPMS bashing on the net. I think the Sport bests the Sportical because of the 5r rifling, melonite coated barrel, and integral trigger guard loop. Plus it has a brass deflector hump that would be desirable for southpaws if that is a factor. Good luck.
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Old October 5, 2013, 09:03 PM   #21
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TN,

I have heard mixed reviews on the melonite, but I haven't actually been able to find any proof to it.

What exactly is 5r rifling?

Not a south paw, but a buddy of mine is, so I'll keep an eye on him, lol



Palmetto,

I have but they do not have anything in my specific range. That I have seen anyhow.


A second question.

Where is a good place to get accessories rails, lights, optics, etcetera. I have amazon prime and I've seen some stuff on there, but where do y'all get most of yours. There is literally on gun store near me, and he has to special order everything, and I would have to pay double what I would have to online.
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Old October 5, 2013, 09:45 PM   #22
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Well there are lots of mixed reviews on the 5r rifling as well. Basically the barrel has 5 grooves instead of the more common 6 and the bullet is 'claimed' to be deformed less as it passes through the barrel as a groove is always opposite a land. In conventional 4 or 6 groove rifling the opposites are groove-groove and land-land. Also the cross sectional profile or each land is shaped like a trapezoid instead of a square or rectangle. These less sharp angles are 'claimed' to deform the bullet less and foul less resulting in better accuracy and easier cleaning. Who knows? It will probably not make any discernible difference in my coyote hunting rifles. Some well respected barrel makers offer 5r rifling but I don't reckon it has impressed the bench shooters afaik. I have a lot more experience with a Sportical and I haven't been disappointed. I don't like the front tower sight on the Sport as I scope my hunting ARs. But it really isn't in the way too much and is handy for backup irons.
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Old October 5, 2013, 10:15 PM   #23
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So I'm reading reviews about the S&w mp-15 and I run across this:

"Just got mine a few months ago. Also did not realize until I got it home that they changed the twist rate and rifling. Found out this was done at the beginning of 2013. It is now 1:9. It is still melonite coated inside and out. The original 1:8 5r barrel was a selling point and I should have paid attention at the time of purchase, but I was just happy getting it for msrp of $839.00 in this current atmosphere. What stings is for $200.00 more I could have gotten a nicer mil-spec Spikes AR that was right next to it but I figured the good reputation the 1:8 5r Sport had was worth downgrading, but I got stuck with the more common 1:9. Live and learn I guess, it’s still a good entry AR, but my SHTF gunwill be my Arsenal AK over this."

Anywhere I can verify the change in barrel twist? I've googled to no avail...
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Old October 5, 2013, 10:45 PM   #24
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Yes the current S&W Sport has a 1/9 twist. For me that isn't a problem as the heaviest bullets I shoot are the 64g power points which will work in even 1/12 barrels. Long range shooters, 600-1000 yards, would want/need a faster twist for the heavy/long bullets. The long bullets either take up a lot of powder space and/or won't fit the magazine or both. So the 1/7 or 1/8 .223 barrels are niche driven in my view. The 1/9 is plenty adequate for a .223 AR for me- ymmv. I think it still has the 5r rifling-mine is at another location so I can't verify that at this moment.
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Old October 5, 2013, 10:51 PM   #25
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Well honestly, S rip said above, a 1:9 is ideal for me, as I'll be shooting mainly lighter loads for coyote, and it can hand my large hog loads as well.
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