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Old October 3, 2013, 08:59 PM   #1
mjes92
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True Blue = Law enforcement rounds?

Ramshot TRUE BLUE sales literature states:

Ramshot Powder TRUE BLUE is the perfect powder for classic calibers such as the 38 Special, 44 Special, and 45 Long Colt. TRUE BLUE works well with cast bullets and is also an excellent choice for 9mm law enforcement rounds.

What the heck is considered a 9mm law enforcement round??

I plan on using True Blue but that statement has me confused. What is the required criteria.
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Last edited by mjes92; October 4, 2013 at 02:16 PM. Reason: True Blue
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Old October 3, 2013, 11:18 PM   #2
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This is a question for 57K if there ever was one. He'll answer in detail. It's late and he's in Texas. You'll most likely see his post in the morning
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Old October 4, 2013, 02:21 AM   #3
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Though TB is a pretty good powder with a wide range of uses in various calibers, I have not heard of "Law Enforcement Loads" referred to when using it. Now, Silhouette... that's a different matter as it is the clone of the original powder (WAP) used when the .40 S&W was invented, and is still my "go to" powder in that caliber as well as for upper mid-range to max loads in several other calibers of the "defense" variety.

57K certainly likes TB, but he likes Silhouette too, and for zippier loads Silhouette is generally preferred with a few exceptions like 357 Magnum perhaps. Still... if you are only buying one powder, True Blue would not be a bad one to have and is pretty much the "ball powder" Unique in that it has a very wide range of uses, though personally I still like Silhouette.
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Old October 4, 2013, 02:03 PM   #4
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True Blue

57K,
You out there? My curiousity is getting the better of me. Hope to get your input.

Thanks guys
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Old October 4, 2013, 07:14 PM   #5
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It was the factory powder in the 5.7x28 round. A lot of steal shooters are using it. No Idea on the LEO powder though.
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Old October 5, 2013, 12:22 PM   #6
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A law enforcement round is any round law enforcement shoots.
In my 17 years as a L.E. officer, thats about the only logic I can come up with. An "L.E. only" round is usually a A.P. round that is designed to be fired from a handgun or sub-gun. There is a lot of l.e. only ammo out there for the fn5.7X28. There is some 9mm stuff that will penetrate level II vests. There is some .308 stuff that will defeat level IV ceramic. (Supposedly, I would have to see that to believe it.)
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Old October 5, 2013, 08:52 PM   #7
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A bunch of LE uses Gold Dots, maybe a reference to loading them?
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Old October 5, 2013, 09:23 PM   #8
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"A law enforcement round is any round law enforcement shoots"

So true. Some PD's have tight budgets and some have huge budgets. That pretty much dictates what LE's buy.
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Old October 5, 2013, 09:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
What the heck is considered a 9mm law enforcement round??
The law enforcement ammo I have seen just has specific penetration and stopping power. Winchester has Ranger T Series link replaced the Black Talon line after it came under attack. Really not that different than ammo specifically listed as self defense rounds.
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Old October 5, 2013, 10:14 PM   #10
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I guess they think it sounds impressive hoping more people will get hopped up about it.
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Old October 6, 2013, 09:22 AM   #11
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Mr. 92,

I suspect the reference as being "an excellent choice for 9mm law enforcement rounds", is only a marketing ploy. Most if not all big named ammunition providers use non-canister powders.

Back in the dark ages... when I started at the SO, I bought my weapon of choice and ammunition. In the mid 70's S&W came out with the original Model 59s and the SO worked a mass buy but each Deputy had to pay for his own. We had Deputies using everything from 'Super-Vels' to Finish made steel core stuff.
After I moved on to the PD, again I provided my choice of weapon and ammunition only it had to be a wheel gun. Later the City fathers bought weapons and ammunition with 'LEAA' money. They made rational selections, a 'MAGNUM' is a big bottle of bubbly wine and is scary. They bought S&W Model 67s and RP 125 grain JHPs. It could have been worse I guess. At the same time I carried a reciprocal commission with an adjoining town, the City Marshal carried a 'Haus' .22 single action! (I think his son shot squirrels with it down on Corp land by the river.)

So, just being used by a Law Enforcement Agency is not a big draw for me.

Enjoy,

OSOK
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Old October 6, 2013, 09:35 AM   #12
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Yes a marketing ploy
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Old October 6, 2013, 09:42 AM   #13
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My department (very small) gets LE ammo too. We walk into our sporting goods store and whatever's on the shelf is our LE round. Had to qualify not long ago and was given two different FMJs to qualify with. After that I was given a box of 180 grain HPs to use as duty ammo. We didn't even see if they would cycle or anything. Needless to say I just bring them home and put in ammo cabinet and carry what I know will work.
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Old October 6, 2013, 01:22 PM   #14
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"Law enforcement rounds"

That's just another one of those terms that gets thrown around like " assault rifle", "cop killer bullets", "high powered rifle", "hand cannon", "Street howitzer" or "bullet proof vest".

Generally those terms are either inaccurate or used improperly.

Marketing nonsense.

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Old October 7, 2013, 03:39 PM   #15
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Looks like I'm late to the party! In Ramshot's earlier load guides they actually gave 9mm +P data for True Blue and since Silhouette = WAP, they just reprinted previous Winchester data for WAP. Both powders are used by IPSC shooters who load 9mm Major that's well beyond the level of +P and shouldn't be attempted unless you're using a custom pistol that will function with the much longer OACLs. I just mention this because both True Blue and Silhouette are used along with another of my old favorites 3N37 and it speaks for their pressure stability. In direct comparisons with handloads, Silhouette and 3N37 are so close in chargeweight and performance that there's really no need to spend extra for 3N37. I have had exceptional accuracy with True Blue in 9mm. I have worked up to charge levels that are somewhat higher than published data so I can't list the charge. SIERRA's data is warmer than Ramshot's and SPEER's may be warmer than SIERRA's. The loads are safe regardless of which powder you use. If you want to use a single powder for all the different handgun calibers you shoot, True Blue is the best on the market, IMO. For my defense loads that are pretty warm, I use Silhouette because it's chemically treated to have low flash and I get very good Standard Deviation numbers with the warm charges. True Blue isn't treated, but it is so dense and fine grained that low flash is one of it's characteristics. I just recently loaded some Montana Gold 124 gr. JHPs with True Blue that I haven't had the chance to test yet, and I'll chronograph them when I do. The load should be fairly equivelant to something like Win. WhiteBox 124 gr. NATO load.
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Old October 7, 2013, 04:04 PM   #16
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^^ So there you have it ^^
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Old October 8, 2013, 03:10 PM   #17
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Thanks

Thanks again Gentelmen. I gained more out of this thread than expected.

Now for the biggest challenge; Finding a pound of True Blue.
Next to impossible. But, I don't give up easy.

57K, we hope to see your range report soon.

Thanks again
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Old October 8, 2013, 06:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
...an excellent choice for 9mm law enforcement rounds.
Marketing ploy?

Back in the old days we called this a sales pitch. The inside pitch is to the law enforcement folks who are loading their own. The outside pitch is to everyone who wants to have the same stuff as law officers.
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Old October 8, 2013, 06:19 PM   #19
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Any law enforcement officer who is carrying hand loaded ammo in his duty weapon is not very smart. Most departments wont even let Marksman Observers (snipers) use hand loaded ammo.
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Old October 8, 2013, 07:23 PM   #20
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Any law enforcement officer who is carrying hand loaded ammo in his duty weapon is not very smart. Most departments wont even let Marksman Observers (snipers) use hand loaded ammo.

That may be true with local LE, but not with one federal agency I know of. I shot with one of their agents for a couple of years. He built his own sniper rifle, It was a 7mm I believe, and all of his rounds were his own loads. I met him at the range I worked at. He would come out about once a week to test his loads. It was in April or June 2011 we went up to camp perry because he needed a 1000 yd range. At 800yds he blew out the center bullseye. At 1000, he had less than a 1" spread. (kind of made me and my m1a look pretty sick). I don't know which agency he worked for nor did I ask, but when they asked for our ID's I saw his ID and badge..

As far as city local LE I've shot a couple of their remington sniper rifles, which were pretty nice. But I wasn't very impressed with their shooting ability. About 4mths ago the city council shut their range down because the PO's were putting rounds into some of the surrounding occupied homes.
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Old October 8, 2013, 07:27 PM   #21
reynolds357
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Notice, I said "most" departments.
It all depends on what you insurance company will allow. Feds dont have that to worry about. He set a world record at 1K that day.
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Old October 8, 2013, 07:50 PM   #22
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Marketeers or Anti's monikers

"Assault Rifle"
"Law Enforcement Round"
"Semi-Automatic Machine Gun"
"AUTOMATIC"
"High Powered"
"High Capacity"
"Sniper Round"
"High Capacity Clip"
"Gun Show Loophole"
"Gun Control"
"Small Gun"
"High Caliber"
"Smart Gun"
"Gun Violence"
"Military Grade"
"Honest Politician"
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Old October 8, 2013, 07:57 PM   #23
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I never asked him much about his rifle The the thing I did notice was the sound. The best I can describe it is "crack", not like the sound from an M1 or M1a, I could always tell when he was shooting, it was that distinctive.
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Old October 9, 2013, 01:23 PM   #24
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Law enforcement rounds marketing ploy, sort of like "mil-spec" (while I realize it is a legitimate specification, I bet the vast majority of civilians have no idea what those numbers are or what it really means).
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Old October 9, 2013, 02:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
"Assault Rifle" "Law Enforcement Round" "Semi-Automatic Machine Gun" "AUTOMATIC" "High Powered" "High Capacity" "Sniper Round" "High Capacity Clip" "Gun Show Loophole" "Gun Control" "Small Gun" "High Caliber" "Smart Gun" "Gun Violence" "Military Grade" "Honest Politician"
You forgot "military intelligence"

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