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Old October 3, 2013, 12:02 AM   #1
Zorro
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Glock Accidental Discharges.

I have a problem with Glock pistols outside a combat zone.

The trigger only safety causes lots of accidents.

Why is this superior to a colt 1911 where you have to undo 3 Safety systems to fire?

#1 Cock, #2 Unlock, #3 Grip Firmly.
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Old October 3, 2013, 12:05 AM   #2
45Gunner
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Be prepared for the onslaught from Glock lovers.

I never recommend Glocks or guns with similar type trigger safety systems to new shooters. One should be completely comfortable and confident with guns without being complacent and cocky before obtaining a Glock or Glock Clone.
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Ok you Glock lovers, go for it........
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Old October 3, 2013, 12:15 AM   #3
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Moving to Semi-Auto Handguns.
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Old October 3, 2013, 12:15 AM   #4
Tom Servo
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For new shooters, the Glock design can be unforgiving of sloppy trigger discipline. However, I've known folks to have ND's with 10lb DA triggers, and some of those guns also had manual safeties.

To a shooter with the most basic of training and discipline, they're perfectly safe.
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Old October 3, 2013, 12:18 AM   #5
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I have carried a glock for the last 13 years and have not even come close to an AD. All one has to do is use a proper holster and keep fingers away from the trigger and all is fine.

Some like the simplicity of the glock type setup. That and not everyone thinks that a 1911 is the end all be all of guns.
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Old October 3, 2013, 12:28 AM   #6
JimmyR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorro
Why is this superior to a colt 1911 where you have to undo 3 Safety systems to fire?

#1 Cock, #2 Unlock, #3 Grip Firmly.
You have answered your own question. I am glad you trust 1) all three systems to work properly without fail and 2) yourself to activate all three safeties in order to use your weapon when you life is in danger.

Personally, I choose to carry SA/DA semiautos or DAO revolvers. My CZ-75BD is a decocker only model, and that has been my preference for carry guns. Safeties, to me, are a double edged sword. They can either protect me or kill me, depending on their use and functioning.
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Old October 3, 2013, 12:32 AM   #7
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here we go

Oh man, this is gonna get ugly.

Some points to consider: "outside the combat zone" the Colt 1911 was typically carried condition 3 by the military, if I understand right. Hammer down, empty chamber. Not exactly a strong vote on its safety record. I have read accounts where unit commanders forbid their carry in the combat zone, due to AD's. I read of one instance where Colt discharged shipboard in an officers mess and killed some unfortunate soul. Sorry, no source, just recollections. I would think there are lots of incidents where 1911's were AD'd, irregardless of carry mode.

When I started bamaboy on the auto pistol, we moved pretty quickly from a Ruger .22 to the Glock for the very reason that there were NO or at least few, external controls. Of course he understood very clearly the 4 basic safety rules and has applied same ever since.

I have heard of "no safety" pistols discharging when shoved, loaded, into luggage, duffle bags, etc. The trigger and tab allegedly got snagged on contents within. The tab/trigger seems a bit susceptible to that when you think about it, but with a proper holster and responsible stowage, that should be easily avoided.

I listened to a police instructor vehemently deride the Glock system when it first hit the market years back. Now, with Glock having such a large share of the market, I wonder what his stance is?

Now I'm gonna sit back and read the fireworks.
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Old October 3, 2013, 12:37 AM   #8
Zorro
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Yet cops keep shooting themselves with Glocks.
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Old October 3, 2013, 01:07 AM   #9
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Why does it always have to be a "Glock"?? There are a vast number of handguns out there that do not have external safeties. Certain models of Kahrs, Walthers, Sigs, H&K, S&W, etc, etc....

IMHO... the only thing an external safety will do, is slow you down. Just another obstacle between you drawing and firing your gun.

The reason that cops "keep shooting themselves" is a product of the sheer number of LEO's that rely on Glocks every day.

For example... If an overwhelming majority of people drive a Ford to work every day.... it would be safe to guess that most accidents would involve a Ford. It doesn't automatically mean that there is a problem with Ford's.

Same deal with a Glock. Lack of training and trigger discipline doesnt help either... but you can't blame the gun.
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Old October 3, 2013, 01:11 AM   #10
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I have a G23, I carry my 5" Colt 1911 condition 1. In more respects than not the Glock makes more sense, lighter, smaller, higher ammo capacity. But I can't get over not having a traditional safety. I just can't carry comfortably with that in mind. That and I shoot my 1911 better.

Carrying cocked and locked in a modern 1911 is, IMHO, much less fraught with risk than carrying a safety-less semiauto. It won't fire unless the gun is in your hand and the safety switch down. Practice can make flipping the safety off as the barrel becomes parallel with the deck second nature.
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Old October 3, 2013, 01:13 AM   #11
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This isn't something that's unique to Glock; lots of companies make handguns with no safeties. Many people prefer them for various reasons. In the end it all comes down to personal preference, and how comfortable you are with carrying either configuration.
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Old October 3, 2013, 01:27 AM   #12
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Quote:
The trigger only safety causes lots of accidents.

I know a guy that shot himself in the leg with S&W 422 that had a safety and on two seperate occasions shot the wall on my brothers apartment with a shotgun that also had a safety.
My Uncle pointed a revolver that he found at one of my aunts and pulled the trigger not knowing if it was loaded.(luckily it wasn't) The same uncle on a seperate occasion shot himself in the leg with a 38 special. Both instances for him occured well before he was 10 years old. Now all grown up and a cop BTW he is more responsible than 99.9% of the people I meet.
Quote:
Yet cops keep shooting themselves with Glocks.
Glocks are like Puukkos they don't have a safety/guard and don't care if they cut you. You have to respect the danger. It isn't magically safe just because of some safeties. I personally don't care for safeties. You have to treat a gun the same whether it does/doesn't have safeties or is loaded/unloaded.
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Old October 3, 2013, 01:29 AM   #13
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I don't ever carry guns with external safeties. Even though I had extensive training with the Beretta M9 when I was in military security, I worried greatly about my ability to sweep the safety under stress. I have no fear whatsoever of internal safeties only. I've never pulled a trigger by accident or come close to it, and frankly any quality holster I've carried in makes it nearly impossible to pull the trigger while its in it even if I tried. I'd really have to jam my finger in, there's no way its going off.

Internal safeties are there because they are, in fact, safe. Just don't go around waving guns and pulling triggers willy-nilly
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Old October 3, 2013, 01:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
The trigger only safety causes lots of accidents.
Is it really the cause, though? Is it the reason for the accident?

Or was the reason poor handling on the part of the person manipulating it?
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Old October 3, 2013, 02:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
The trigger only safety causes lots of accidents.
No. I don't like glocks at all but that is totally incorrect. Poorly trained shooters and bad habits cause negligent discharges. Then they need something to blame.

It has nothing to do with Glocks safe action.
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Old October 3, 2013, 03:26 AM   #16
thedudeabides
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Glocks and other tubberware with trigger safeties should only be worn in rigid holsters.

At an LGS recently I saw someone buying an Uncle Mike's/Blackhawk soft IWB holster for their new Block 19. It doesn't take much imagination to see the soft holster bunching up when one tries to holster the weapon and pressing up against the trigger, resulting in an ND.

If you don't believe me, try it with an unloaded trigger safety gun and a soft holster and see for yourself.

A lot of accidents are due to people not understanding the trigger safety, but to be fair, the gun is really just a DAO with no external safeties and a lightweight trigger that's easy to jigger when holstering the weapon except under the most ideal conditions. Putting a trigger safety on it doesn't make it that much SAFER or PERFECT.
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Old October 3, 2013, 05:05 AM   #17
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As much as I dislike the old "keep your booger-hook of the bang-switch" mantra, it's kind of true.
The only way to get any gun to fire is to pull the trigger. I would guess that most people who have ND's would have them regardless of the pistol.
I like the platform for it's simplicity. I also find that, because I know I can;t rely on some perceived safety net, I'm even more careful. That's the same reason I've started keeping all my guns chambered (but locked in the safe, so the kids can't get to them). I know that if I pick up one of my guns and pull the trigger, it's going to go bang. So, I don't.
I don't think it's a bad thing to be ever-so-slightly nervous when handling a gun. It's a gun after all, and one moment of unsafe handling could cause any number of horrible things to happen.
IMHO it's wen people stop having that little edge of nerves, and start treating guns like toys that they wind up shooting themselves.

One of the very first things any new shooter should be taught - regardless of the gun - is to keep ones finger off the trigger. If the only thing stopping a person from shooting themselves in the leg is that the safety stops the trigger, maybe they shouldn't be handling a gun without supervision. ND's are a shooter issue.

Now, I would agree that guns with relatively light triggers, but without a mechanical safety, may not be the best gun to start a new shooter with (I'd be super-original, and start them with DA/SA revolver in SA). And, I'm certainly not going to say that my preference is somehow more valid than anyone else's.
If you don't like the platform, don't carry it. It's one option out of several - all of which work just fine with the proper training. But, just because you don't care for a given platform doesn't mean it's any less viable an option for someone else.
Personally, I don't care for carrying a 1911 "cocked and locked". It makes me nervous despite knowing it's as safe as any other carry. So, I don't carry a 1911, but I'm not going to claim that there's anything inferior about it. It's Just not for me.

A functioning, ridged holster is important to safely carry virtually any chambered handgun, so I'm going to leave that one alone.

Lastly, the numbers.
It's probably true that more police have ND's with trigger-safety only pistols (TSO's) than other platforms. But - as has been said - that has more to do with the sheer number of police (not all of who are particularly proficient with firearms) that carry them. I imagine if you had the time or desire to do the research you'd find that far more cops don't have ND's with TSO's than don't have ND's with other formats as well.
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Old October 3, 2013, 05:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
#1 Cock, #2 Unlock, #3 Grip Firmly.
You mean 'two' safeties, don't you?
'Unlock and grip firmly' would be correct. As a Colt comes up, you sweep the safety off and should be ready to fire. The 1911 is carried already cocked and hammer back.
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Old October 3, 2013, 08:18 AM   #19
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There is no such thing as an accidental discharge with a Glock. It just can't happen. The gun won't fire unless the trigger is pulled all the way through its cycle. The gun is never cocked unless the trigger is "pulled" all the way back. Every time someone has had an "AD" with a Glock, there was nothing accidental about it. The idiot who shoots a glock "accidently" does so by shoving it in a holster with their finger still on the trigger. That's not an accident, that's a moron with a gun. The OP doesn't seem to know the difference between an accidental discharge and irresponsible gun handling. It's not the same thing.
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Old October 3, 2013, 08:31 AM   #20
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Accidental or negligent discharges are almost always due to poor or just downright dangerous firearm handling technique. I've seen an AD with a single shot shotgun ( remove safety AND cock hammer) as well as a Beretta 92( manual safety, DA/SA). Both discharges were owing to the finger being on the trigger before the operator intended to shoot.

My point is, a manual safety, loaded chamber indicator, magazine disconnect safety, trigger safety, grip safety, Etc.. can NEVER be used as a replacement for proper and safe gun handling skills. Unsafe handling of your pistol with eventually lead to a negligent discharge whether you have a manual safety or not.

Also, as another poster pointed out in a previous post, Glocks are not the only handgun that lack external safeties.
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Old October 3, 2013, 09:00 AM   #21
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As a long time DAO proponent and a recent Glock owner, I find this argument silly. For years Double action revolvers ruled and had no safety. The trigger on my Glock is no easier to discharge than the trigger on my Kahr, or a good trigger on a good wheelgun, but no one is scared of ADs in those platforms. The Glock has the extra trigger safety that none of those have. In all truth, a Double Action handgun with along trigger stroke does not need a safety other than the one between your ears. If you put your finger in the triggergaurd and pull the trigger all the way back and the gun fires and then you claim a design flaw caused an "accidental discharge", you do not need to own firearms
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Old October 3, 2013, 09:27 AM   #22
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I am not a Glock fan, I prefer a hammer system, but Glocks are fine weapons. I agree they aren't for everyone. I have seen new shooters use a Glock and learn just fine, but I have also seen other who can't keep their booger hook off of the trigger for anything. While I don't own one, I have shot many. I would trust a Glock with my life. They are honestly as dependable and good of a handgun as one could expect,especially for their price point. If it came down to carrying a Glock or going back to my 1911, I would pick the Glock (pains me to say).
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Old October 3, 2013, 09:35 AM   #23
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Quote:
#1 Cock, #2 Unlock, #3 Grip Firmly.
Wrong, it's either

1) chamber a round and grip firmly (starting in condition 3)

2) rotate safety lever and grip firmly (starting in condition 1)

or

3) cock and grip firmly (starting in condition 2)
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Old October 3, 2013, 09:54 AM   #24
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The Glock safety system (or any other similar gun) is not at fault for stupidity. They do not make a gun go off, they are just much less forgiving to someone who makes a stupid mistake.

If you don't feel like you trust yourself to not make one of these mistakes, then the gun flat-out just isn't for you. I carry a Glock 19, S&W M&P9 or a Colt Commander depending on the day. I'm not worried about having an 'accident' with any of them.
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Old October 3, 2013, 10:11 AM   #25
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The Glock is superior because it is simpler. Simpler to operate, simpler to maintain, simpler to fix.

IMO saying that the 1911 is better because of it's safties is like saying your truck is better than mine because it takes three keys to start.
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