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Old September 27, 2013, 05:43 AM   #1
Venom1956
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What is your view on Dogs?

I am curious to see how people will answer this.

Do you personally view your companion as a 'family member' or property? If your dog was in danger from another human being how would you treat it? Would you use lethal force if you felt it was necessary? Where do you personally draw the line?

Police dogs as an example if killed are treated as if it was a human officer.

Yet privately owned pets are not. I know its not a perfect example, I am just using that to show the spectrum of how we view dogs.
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Last edited by Venom1956; September 27, 2013 at 06:04 AM.
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:04 AM   #2
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I feel my dog is part of the family. Use force to protect her? Yes, she would give her life to protect us.
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:06 AM   #3
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I've owned lots of dogs over the years, and I've had many kinds, working dogs, hunting dogs, guard dogs, you name it, I've owned it.

My dog now is a 5 lb shi tzu, a small lap dog that goes lots of places with me. He's dumb as a rock, scared of his own shadow, and worthless as far as I can see. I routinely tell him that he'll do until a good dog comes along. He can't track, can't fight, is totally non-threatening.

Quote:
If your dog was in danger from another human being how would you treat it? Would you use lethal force if you felt it was necessary? Where do you personally draw the line?
If someone was willing to use lethal force against this particular dog, then he'd be willing to use lethal force against me. Everything else is just details.
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:25 AM   #4
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My two pooches are family members without a doubt.
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:34 AM   #5
Pond, James Pond
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I view my dogs as part of the family and my attachment to and affection for them is very real.

If they were in danger I would protect them. How would depend on the situation, I guess. I would not abandon them, though.

I can almost guarantee that, over here, I'd be in the do-do if I used lethal force.

I shouldn't be, but would.
My firearms licence is first and foremost termed as a self and property defence weapon licence. The hunting and sports shooting parts are additions to that. Also, over here, legally speaking, dogs are viewed as objects and so property. I should be entitled to use force to protect them.

But, I bet it would not work out that way....

Another reason I carry pepper spray too...
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:58 AM   #6
jhenry
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In the first place we view our dogs as part of our family, and very valuable members at that. That being said one has to remember they are in fact animals and not human beings.

A police dog is NOT treated as a human being if killed or threatened with deadly force. You will most certainly face charges if you kill a K9 dog, but you will not face murder charges, which would be the case if they were considered under the law to have the same protections as a human being.

It has been mentioned that if an aggressor were to kill your dog it could be reasonably thought that the same aggressor is coming after you. I tend to agree that could well be the case, but THEN we are talking about normal standards for the protection of a human. Let's take that bit out of the equation.

Let us say you are 200 yards away from your dog with a rifle. You see some guy club your dog. Will you draw down and shoot the guy?

Same scenario and the guy is clubbing your child. What then.
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Old September 27, 2013, 09:06 AM   #7
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Quote:
Let us say you are 200 yards away from your dog with a rifle. You see some guy club your dog. Will you draw down and shoot the guy?
Not enough information for a knowledgeable response. Whose property are you on? What is the nature of the conflict? Was the dog threatening? What was the dog doing that far out of your control? I can dream up a scenario to make it perfectly reasonable.

Let's say that I'm in my back pasture working on a deerstand, and I hear barking. I look toward the house and notice my German Shepherd barking at a man I don't recognize. He clubs the dog unconscious, then moves toward the door to my home, where my family is located. Do I shoot him? You betcha. Totally justified. I'm on my property and responding to a deadly force incident to protect my family.

Now, let's change the scenario. I'm walking my dog, and he runs away from me, onto a neighbor's property. The neighbor is startled by the running dog and hits the dog with a stick to move him away. Do I shoot the neighbor? Absolutely not.

Each deadly force incident is resolved based on the facts surrounding that incident and until you know all the facts, you can't make a knowledgeable determination.
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Old September 27, 2013, 10:43 AM   #8
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Without a doubt, our dog is a member of our family. If someone was trying to harm him I would do what I could to protect him, just as he would try to protect me.

when I lived in Japan most of the dogs I saw were tied up outside in a tiny little yard (since land is so scarce) and treated as pets only. they seemed to have very little in the way of social skills and barked/growled at anything that crossed their path. dogs will bark, regardless of geographic location, but every dog I encountered was just plain hostile. I know i'm probably making a generalization about dog ownership in Japan - i'm sure there are dog owners there that treat their pets like family, but not to the degree that we do in the US IMO
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Old September 27, 2013, 11:25 AM   #9
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawPaw
...If someone was willing to use lethal force against this particular dog, then he'd be willing to use lethal force against me. Everything else is just details.
But those details matter.

As much as we love our animals, they are considered by the law to be property. An imminent lethal threat to your dog is not the same as an imminent lethal threat to you or another person. And a person's willingness to use lethal force against you does not justify your use of lethal force against him unless that willingness is manifest by (1) the present ability to kill of cripple you; and (2) the ability to immediately deploy lethal force against you; and (3) the manifest intent to immediately kill or cripple you.
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Old September 27, 2013, 12:02 PM   #10
Venom1956
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Ah thank you Frank, thank you. Wrote that better then I could ever have.

I see I am not alone in feeling how important my two companions are to me. My oldest has been with me for almost 10 years, about half of the years I can really remember. In the moment I don't know if I could let her come to harm if I could stop it. My dogs greet and inspect everyone who nears my house (also bark so I know whats up) so the odds of them meeting danger before I is likely. But the rational part of me realizes that the Law views them as property. A hard decision it is.

If someone was harming my dogs outside of my home where I was safe and secure with locks and phones and what not could I prevent myself from running to their aid? Not sure. That's why I posted this, to see how others felt.

Such as when a younger cop (no picking on LEOs here just an example) shot and killed a dog he claim charged him, video later proved this false. The owner of that dog was given enough money to buy a new pup and the officer was disciplined. I am not sure if she sued for damages or if it was successful. Now I am sure if you saw an LEO in question you might proceed more carefully.

The K9 reference may not be 100% accurate I just used it to illustrate how even the law views them at both ends of the spectrum. Dogs are property unless they are K9 dogs...

This threads off to a good start I hope it keeps going, I like all these other viewpoints.
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Old September 27, 2013, 12:02 PM   #11
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My dog is a member of the family but he is also a service dog, seizure response dog. If you kill him with his vest on, Don't pet me I'm working, its a felony offense.
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Old September 27, 2013, 12:08 PM   #12
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I doubt that the law would look upon any animal as a member of the family in the same way as a human.
I do not think that an animal is worth taking a human life.
Jerry
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Old September 27, 2013, 01:56 PM   #13
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It is a dog, not a human. No matter how much emotional weight we invest in our pets, they aren't worth going to prison for.
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Old September 27, 2013, 02:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
A police dog is NOT treated as a human being if killed or threatened with deadly force. You will most certainly face charges if you kill a K9 dog, but you will not face murder charges,
In Tennessee, I believe it is considered "assault on a officer".



I have several dogs, all are protective in one way or another. However, they are animals, and as such (as Frank said) are merely property. In some jurisdictions deadly force may be justified in protecting property, in others, likely not. Would I use force to protect my dog ? Depending on the circumstances I might open a can of whoop a$$ on someone if they are mistreating any animal but, don't see the use of deadly force as viable.
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Old September 27, 2013, 02:26 PM   #15
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+1 for foxytwo's response
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Old September 27, 2013, 03:13 PM   #16
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so i'm in my garage last year cleaning my guns from a range session. my wife is in the yard working in her flower bed and her mother--age 89, is sitting in a chair, watching her daughter working and they are conversing. all of a sudden, a neighbor's bull pit (about 80lbs.) strays into the yard, gets in my wife's face and is growling, snapping and frothing at the mouth. i run out with my pocket rocket seecamp--get between said dog and wife-stick the gun in the dogs face and he retreats. well, dog got lucky--i don't desire to kill anyone's pet--but goddamit--i ain't a social worker. if it happens again-that dog or any other dog is freaking toast-i don't care if it's your "baby" or whatever.
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Old September 27, 2013, 03:13 PM   #17
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I completely agree with Frank that animals are not human, and are rightly considered property by law. There seems to be a growing number of people though, who consider animals equal in value to humans, some of whom are more outraged by the mistreatment of animals.

I've cried like a little girl more than once over the loss of a dog, and if I saw someone abusing my dog they would have to deal with me...using lethal force on a human to protect an animal would be going too far unless the case could be made that the violence also threatened you. I would not want to have to make that case.
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Old September 27, 2013, 03:48 PM   #18
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I've never owned a pedigree dog. Every dog I've had is from a "mixed" background. The last dog was by far the best. She was "drug dog". What I mean is the area I worked until I retired was a drug dealers heaven. When LE busted the dealers they either shot the dogs or the dogs scattered and ran in packs. I think she was part German Shepard an part Doberman. Anyway I found her inside our security fence and she pretty much picked me. That was in 1993, I had to have her put down 3 weeks ago. I miss her. She went with me everywhere...
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Old September 27, 2013, 04:13 PM   #19
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I guess I'm in between on the property/family member thing. I'm owned 3 dogs in my life and cared for them a great deal. I would defend them short of killing someone (other than someone attaching my family or me). Although I viewed my dog as "part" of my family, I never viewed him the same as my kids or my wife. If my neighbor was beating my dog I'd try to stop him and would certainly prosecute him but I wouldn't kill him. I would if he were doing the same to my kids or my wife.
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Old September 27, 2013, 04:24 PM   #20
Venom1956
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Kimber, that's a totally different situation. If the dogs on your land being aggressive and you feel the need to put it down, by all means.

My last dog I owned I actually had to do it. he fell and broke some ribs so when i patted his side later that day he attacked me refused to let go of my foot. I felt horrible.

I am just seeing who people feel about defending their pets. Where or if then would and when.
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Last edited by Venom1956; September 27, 2013 at 05:09 PM.
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Old September 27, 2013, 05:41 PM   #21
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jhenry it depends on the state. In Virginia a police animal is considered the same as a police officer and if you killed one the charge could easily be the same as if you killed a human police officer. In my home town the local city police had horses for certain activities. One night a drunk got smart with an officer and punched the horse. The drunk could not be charged with anything but being drunk in public and cruelty to animals at that time. That was taken care of in the General Assembly the following session. At home we now have dogs and cats. If someone were to try to physically harm any of them it would not be a good idea on their part. Our cats and dogs are family; they want and give love, they give their support when we are sick or not feeling well, they make great early warning systems. Have you ever seen a cat in a window when there is something there that should not be?
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Old September 27, 2013, 05:46 PM   #22
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I completely understand the emotional attachment to a good dog. But in the eyes of the law a dog is not a person. If the bar is high to justify shooting a person who threatens your own life, the bar to justify shooting a person who threatens your dog's life is astronomically high.

I know there are some who would like to elevate dogs (or even all animals) to the same level as man but I fundamentally believe that doing so debases man.

Just my .02USD...
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:29 PM   #23
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My dog passed away just two months ago but any person who would have ever harmed or tried to kill her may not live to regret it if I were anywhere close by at the time. That is just the way I feel (legally wrong or not)and if anyone feels different, that is fine. Dogs are better companions and friends than most people by far.
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:49 PM   #24
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If someone was harming one of my dogs without good reason, I don't think I'd shoot to kill, but I'd send them away limping.

On second thought, if someone was big and bad enough to attack my DOGS they'd be a pretty large threat, because my DOGS aren't what you'd call lap dogs. They've got at least 150 lbs between the 2 of them, so I probably wouldn't have to shoot at all, maybe just go pull the DOGS off.
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Old September 27, 2013, 06:54 PM   #25
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I protect my dog.
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