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Old October 3, 2013, 06:54 PM   #51
Double Naught Spy
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It *might be* that gun show guys have heard it before, many in combat.
So they know bullets can't hurt them or that they are otherwise safe? Not believing it. Besides, it is rather funny how the people who don't react out of ignorance and lack of understanding would be just like the people who don't react out of combat experience.

Of course, there were combat veterans at Fort Hood who thought the event was "just a drill" before realizing it was reality.
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Old October 4, 2013, 12:19 AM   #52
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WA area spree shooter; large mall...

Id add that a spree shooting at a large mall in the US northwest(WA/OR), a few years ago had several CCW/armed citizens in the crowd but they reportedly told the first responders & local media that they thought the guns were toys or "airsoft" weapons. The few CCers also said the gun shots sounded like props or blanks at first.

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PS; Having a CCW license is a lot like the joke I heard from 80s era stand up comic: "I couldn't see working in a 7-11 in Alaska. Everyone who walks in is wearing a ski-mask!"
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Old October 4, 2013, 07:00 AM   #53
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Yep, the guy that stopped Sylvia Seegrist (1985) by grabbing her rifle thought it was a Halloween prank and he didn't think it was funny. He didn't know it was a real gun and that she was really killing people.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=6635,6773402

People thinking the shots were firecrackers...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=994,1229123
http://newsok.com/three-killed-in-ok...rticle/1924230
http://www.msnewsnow.com/story/17292...3-hospitalized

If there is going to be confusion of concern for the participants, then that confusion almost always is with the intended and potential victims. The killer(s) knows why s/he is there, what the goal is, and what tools are being used to accomplish said goal. Most know to expect the resistance at some point and often have plans for it. The overall "plans" may not be great or well thought out, but they have a lot more of an idea of what is going to go on than anyone else there when the shooting starts.
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Old October 4, 2013, 09:06 AM   #54
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I have to say, when I heard that shot go off at a gun show, I intuitively "knew" what had happened. Now, granted, my intuition could have been proven wrong. But, the dead silence which followed that one gunshot (now noise of any struggle) was a giveaway.

I've probably attended over 60 gun shows and this is the only time I ever heard a gunshot.
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Old October 4, 2013, 12:40 PM   #55
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You need to consider the issue from the viewpoint of the police who might be on the scene. If you run away from the shooter and run right toward a dozen nervous and trigger-happy police armed with full auto weapons, are you sure they will recognize you as the good guy? Especially if you have a gun in your hand?

At Newtown, I counted at least 40 police officers armed with AR-15/M16 rifles, all probably selective fire. I have to wonder how many of those had any real training in the use of those rifles or if they would have just gone to "spray and pray" if they saw someone they thought was the killer.

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Old October 4, 2013, 01:12 PM   #56
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Its a nonsensical question. It depends on the situation and whether there are potential escape routes, are the others, mobility and visibility.

If I am in a mall near an exit and some nut opens up on the other side of the mall-time to bail.

If I am at my x and someone opens up a drive by next door (actually occured) I'm dropping to the ground and waiting for them to burn urbber out of there.


My personal prediliction is to get the BLEEP out of there, but my physical condition-and that of those important to me- is such that I can do that.

Last edited by zincwarrior; October 4, 2013 at 01:30 PM.
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Old October 4, 2013, 02:50 PM   #57
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LE training, rifles....

I can't speak for every sworn LE agency in CONUS, but I would say most police departments & federal agents would include firearms training with any rifle/SMG contract.
The large sheriffs office in my metro area issues the select fire HK UMP .45acp to the SWAT & special deputies.
The "road" deputies & some detectives get semi auto M4s in 5.56mm from Colt or Bushmaster.
After a high profile news event in 2011, one local newspaper ran a photo of a corrections deputy carrying a "AK45".
I also read a recent gun press article that reported how the Florida Highway Patrol would authorize troopers to carry their own patrol rifles or M4s, if they were purchased with private funds. As budgets & training schedule issues become more common, private ownership might be widely used by law enforcement.
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Old October 4, 2013, 04:15 PM   #58
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Whether the guns are issue or privately owned, I am alarmed by the huge increase in auto weapons in the hands of local police officers. If semi-auto rifles "belong on the battlefield, not on our streets", why does the "Sheriff of Mayberry" need hundreds of full auto rifles and sub guns. What kind of crime wave is envisioned that would require the firing of thousands of rounds by Barney Fife? It seems to me that in most cases, police agencies buy that hardware simply because they can and want to play with it.

And I know that few officers can use a FA rifle or sub gun even if for some reason it were needed; I shudder at the idea of a situation where a kid is reported with a gun-shaped pastry and dozens of police open up with AR's, killing hundreds of innocent people.

Jim
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Old October 4, 2013, 05:56 PM   #59
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James K said:
Quote:
If semi-auto rifles "belong on the battlefield, not on our streets", why does the "Sheriff of Mayberry" need hundreds of full auto rifles and sub guns. What kind of crime wave is envisioned that would require the firing of thousands of rounds by Barney Fife? It seems to me that in most cases, police agencies buy that hardware simply because they can and want to play with it.
One reason is they can be free, courtesy of a (IMHO questionable) Federal program called 1033. "Surplus" military gear is made available to state and local jurisdictions. Some of is is or virtually brand new. About the only thing I haven't seen made available is large ships and nuclear weapons.

So a select fire M-16 / 4 is about $1-2K cheaper than an AR15.
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Old October 4, 2013, 07:36 PM   #60
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IF......

you decide to make a run for it, use the erratic ,serpentine method and refrain from screaming like the sissy you are.

This country wasn't build on running from anything....period.
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Old October 4, 2013, 09:44 PM   #61
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That, pardon me, is silly. If you are able to run away from danger, do so. That is not being a "sissy", it is being sensible. An armed person might try to resist to save himself and/or others. But a person who is not armed or has no chance to resist should escape if he can do so. No one needs to stand on a road in the path of a truck and allow himself to be killed in order to prove that he is not a "sissy".

Jim
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Old October 5, 2013, 06:40 AM   #62
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LE/lever action-pump rifles...

I disagree with the LE rifles remarks.
Large or small, a PD or LE agency needs to have the proper weapons, tools & equipment to do the necessary job(s) safely and efficiently.

I read a article in a US gun magazine(geared towards sworn LE & armed professionals) where the writer suggested LE officers carry lever-action rifles because they wouldn't be so "intimidating" .
In 2013, semi-auto or select fire patrol rifles are what US law enforcement officers & federal agents need most.
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Old October 5, 2013, 08:01 AM   #63
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Yes, definitely be careful of the responding officers. They can indeed be caught up in the stress of the event.
Via Guns.com; an officer endangers bystanders (he just happens to have used an AR):
http://www.guns.com/2013/10/04/town-...ne-fire-video/

"The town of Castle Rock, Colorado continues to support the actions of a police officer who opened fire on two burglary suspects as they sped past on an open road, despite the fact that he missed his intended target and hit the vehicle of an innocent bystander."
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Old October 5, 2013, 09:45 AM   #64
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you decide to make a run for it, use the erratic ,serpentine method and refrain from screaming like the sissy you are.
Quote:
That, pardon me, is silly. If you are able to run away from danger, do so. That is not being a "sissy", it is being sensible. An armed person might try to resist to save himself and/or others. But a person who is not armed or has no chance to resist should escape if he can do so. No one needs to stand on a road in the path of a truck and allow himself to be killed in order to prove that he is not a "sissy".

Jim
Very well said, Jim. I would even add that running is often necessary in the event of overwhelming or surprise actions, if not to just get to a position of safety whereby one can regroup and then choose a means or about the actions to fight, or continue on to better positions of safety. Being a bullet sponge isn't usually considered a good fighting tactic.

Quote:
This country wasn't build on running from anything....period.
You must have missed those classes in History. Aside from Native and most African Americans, settlement of the Colonies was by a large number of people running away from religious, political, and financial troubles in Europe and Asia.

Aside from that, what this country was founded on isn't really relevant to whether or not some person has walked into your work place and is blasting people, now is it?
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Old October 5, 2013, 01:57 PM   #65
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Here is a picture of the Clackamas Town Center food court. This particular shot doesn't actually do justice to the size of the open space in the center, or of how hard it can be to move through this big space while there are people scrambling around tables and chairs in the middle of it.



I go to this mall on a very regular basis. Missed being in the food court by a coin flip, in fact-- I was eating lunch across town in the Washington Square food court when the shooting went down. The point is, until you connect with a real environment, and insert the context into it, it is very difficult to answer this type of question. "Flight" is the obvious instinctive response, and I think that most people in panic aren't discerning between "run to an exit" or "run to a space they can lock from inside"... they are likely to simply move away from the threat, and "lockdown" vs "exit" are likely to be determined by what they happen to run into while fleeing.
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Old October 5, 2013, 02:01 PM   #66
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DO NOT RUN....

I'll state again from reading a few of the newer posts; do not run in these spree shooter events. I'd suggest you walk quickly or move at a fast pace to leave the area but if you run you could slip, have a injury or in a rush, run the wrong way.

I was thinking about some of the TFL remarks too & it reminded me to be alert of the common exits, emergency doors & safety features of the places I go to often.
How would you react in a spree shooter or major emergency(fire, bomb, natural disaster, etc).
Many factories & business centers have staging areas or rally points.
Do you know the general layout or exit locations of your workplace/places you shop/travel/etc?
Clyde
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Old October 5, 2013, 02:54 PM   #67
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I'd like to expand on ClydeFrog's remarks about awareness of physical environment by adding that a person should be aware of how those physical elements look when things get dynamic. Specifically, how people in a panic contribute to the picture. Observing video of group movement can be very telling. The "Running of the Bulls" is one type of example.

Personally, I detest traffic. As a byproduct, I make it a point to always sit near the perimeter of a space, preferably near an exit. That's not a "living in fear" thing. I simply prefer not to navigage areas where people with horrible spacial awareness are moving around. Because of this quirk, I find myself habitually evaluating paths, and taking routes (in the car or on foot) that allow for fluid movement and avoiding bottlenecks. I recommend that others do the same, even if it is only ever relevant as a matter of convenience. My lady used to laugh at my insistence on avoiding the middle, but she now realizes how far a little thinking ahead can go toward avoiding irritation.
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Old October 5, 2013, 05:13 PM   #68
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The article above about the Colorado officer attempting to hit a moving target is a good example of what I was saying before. Its difficult to hit a moving target and foolish to try unless you have specific training and practice. Hunters know what I mean. They know how hard it is to shoot a running deer.

So if you have to run out in front of someone with a rifle do it full sprint and know that you have a good chance at survival.
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Old October 5, 2013, 07:48 PM   #69
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I speculate

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
"Lock Down" or make a run for it?
Conventional advice is to "lock down" when faced with an active shooter. Basically you buy time and hope for the police to arrive in time.
What follows is my speculation, not advice.

When I was a child, we had fire drills at school. One of the things we practiced was to stay together and assemble in designated areas away from the building (usually the parking lot). This got us out of harm's way, sure, but it also allowed for a head count.

I notice a lot of effort during and after recent events has to do with identifying who is and who is not 1) a shooter, 2) missing and 3) dead/wounded.

People who are not moving around are easier to count. The conventional instruction for innocents in the area to stay put until an official arrives to escort them out of harm's way is not for tactics of the individual people, but for the administration of the crime scene. (This is my speculation).

If law enforcement arrives on scene and can count on innocents to stay still, anyone moving is self-identified as a suspect. This may not be entirely true, but it does decrease the odds of an innocent being shot or detained unnecessarily and makes it easier to sort out who to the good guys from the bad.

I recall a scene from the movie, "The Great Escape". The NAZIs, searching for escaped Allied prisoners were on a crowded train platform. They ordered everyone to lay down flat. The uninvolved complied. The one guy who remained upright and running was our escaped allied prisoner, who was immediately shot.

It does help law enforcement if every law-abiding person stays put, complies with orders and complies with instructions.

Sheltering in place may or may not be advantageous to the individual(s) doing the sheltering. But it does give an advantage to the rescuers coming on scene. The additional risk to the individuals may balance out against the aggregate advantage to the general population by making it easier for first responders to control the situation.

I am not selling anything. Just re-posing the question voiced by the original poster, but from the point of view of first responders.

Lost Sheep

Last edited by Lost Sheep; October 6, 2013 at 12:32 PM.
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Old October 5, 2013, 08:20 PM   #70
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Quote:
you decide to make a run for it, use the erratic ,serpentine method and refrain from screaming like the sissy you are.

This country wasn't build on running from anything....period.
Running in a serpentine fashion only increases your exposure time, the shortest/quickest path between 2 points is still a straight line, use it, because the shooter might have full auto capability.

This country, BTW, was built mostly on lies and deception, and even the Continental Army used camouflage and hid behind trees from the Red Coats who thought them to be cowards who hid behind trees and ran from the battle field to hide in ambush for tired Red Coats who chased after them.

Deceitful, and considered to be cowardliness at the time, but nevertheless effective against Red Coats who weren't smart enough to get out of the way of incoming fire.
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Old October 6, 2013, 08:55 PM   #71
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Most people can't shoot for anything, especially a moving target...at a long distance. Run and take others with you.
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Old October 6, 2013, 09:12 PM   #72
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What would I do?

For me it's simple, and distilled into one word:

ATTACK.

I will take the fight to the shooter. I will locate them, and I will neutralize them by engaging them with precise, aimed fire until the threat stops.

Done.
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Old October 6, 2013, 11:07 PM   #73
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Engage the threat, sure.

If you can close the distance, get the drop on them and on and on.
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Old October 7, 2013, 07:23 AM   #74
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Quote:
I will take the fight to the shooter. I will locate them, and I will neutralize them by engaging them with precise, aimed fire until the threat stops.

Done.
Geez, why didn't anyone else realize how easy this this?
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Old October 7, 2013, 10:15 AM   #75
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Well, I would caution against some chest-pounding on how you can in a chaotic environment take on multiple opponents with long arms - esp. with your J-frame.

By long arms, I don't mean attacking gorillas or orangs.
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