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Old September 30, 2013, 02:01 AM   #26
ClydeFrog
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Steven Hunter novel, Run Hide Fight....

1st, Id advise any forum members who haven't viewed it to watch the training video; Run Hide Fight, produced by the city of Houston Texas with US Dept of Homeland Security resources.
It may be online or some other free, open source.
I, take issue with the "hide" concept of a active shooter/terrorist incident. Sometimes called a "man caused disaster" .
As noted in a few other TFL topics, a spree killer, deranged person(s) or terrorist may have planted IEDs(explosives) or wired booby-traps in a large area. If you are "hiding" or are concealing your position until SWAT/ERT/EOD clears the scene, you might be a big pile of ashes if things go sideways & a bomb/device goes off.
Some explosives or IEDs may be used with electric or radio wave signals. A cell phone, microwave, radio, or computer may detonate it.
Or like in the Mumbai hotel attacks in India, multiple attacks or bombs may go off.
I say, if things go sideways, range-walk(a military phrase for a brisk pace) but do not run. If you run, you might fall & have a injury or trip and slow down. If you are armed & engage any hostile threats then so be it but Id rather fight on my terms than risk being a hostage or a casualty because I wanted to "wait it out".
If you haven't read it yet, get author Steven Hunter's great novel about a "terrorist" action on a huge Mall of America type structure.
Hunter, a former film critic & respected Baltimore area journalist is very pro-2A and builds an interesting, realistic storyline for the crisis situation. I don't recall the novel's title but it's not hard to get/read.
I'll close by adding that in a critical incident you should not stop or render aid to any injured/wounded victims around you. That is part of the DHS training I agree with.
As a another popular action novel author; Brad Thor, writes; you help the wounded by sending rounds down range.
When you clear the scene & are safe, you can relay intel or data to the first responders, so they can deal with remaining threats. They are trained & know how to handle counter-terrorist events/active shooters. You may not be a SWAT cop or DEVGRU SEAL so let them handle the event.

Clyde
PS; DHS www.dhs.gov does have a few videos/training guides available.
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Old September 30, 2013, 06:08 AM   #27
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Well, I dont have it all figured out, but the thing is that we may have to figure it out within a few seconds if we find ourselves in the situation. The purpose of talking it out in this thread is to make us think and give us ideas. Obviously, freezing up and doing nothing is not the answer.

There are the three basic scenarios in which to choose from which is 1) Run 2) Hide 3) Fight. I hate to copy the words from that video and sound like a broken CD player but its actually a good formula to think of when faced with the situation. Whatever you do, you have to do it and do it as a team very quickly. There wont be time for debate or discussion. Its something in which you will have to do right away and commit too.

In the Navy yard shooting, I read that one group of people who were in an office closed and locked the doors when they heard the noise. Ok, thats an immediate action. Right or wrong, they figured out what was right for them in a few seconds according to the Run, Hide, Fight formula. Others who froze in place and did nothing were more at risk then those who ran or barricaded themselves in the office. Its very important that you immediately react to any situation.

Running out in front of someone with a rifle isnt as dangerous as you might think. Its difficult to hit a moving target especially one which is moving at full sprint. First the person has to become aware and react which might take a second or so. At 10 mph, you are moving at about 14-15 feet per second. Next the person has to raise the rifle, take aim and fire. Unless they are a hunter or an experienced soldier with that training, they wont know how to handle the situation. It takes specific practice and a bit of luck to hit a moving target. Most people practice at ranges with stationary targets.

Lets look at the explosion. Lets say you hear an explosion not a gunshot then you should think about the fire risk. Fire is one element where you need to react to immediately. If you see or smell smoke its time to run not hide or fight. That can consume you in matter of seconds.

In officer involved shootings, most of the time the officers cant hit what they are shooting at because they have no practice of firing at moving targets or firing while on the move or both.

When you are in such situations you need to quickly determine the following:

1) How many people are you up against?
2) What firearms are being used?
3) What direction is the sound of the shots coming from?
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Old September 30, 2013, 07:52 AM   #28
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Well, I dont have it all figured out,...
Then stop saying how you know what the shooter will be able to do or not do, what is best, what our options are, and what needs to be done.

Quote:
Others who froze in place and did nothing were more at risk then those who ran or barricaded themselves in the office.
Interesting. How did you ascertain risk levels? As noted, at Fort Hood, if you ran, your risk level skyrocketed as Hassan tried to shoot you. Same for Luby's.

Quote:
When you are in such situations you need to quickly determine the following:

1) How many people are you up against?
2) What firearms are being used?
3) What direction is the sound of the shots coming from?
So you send out a recon team to determine the assets of the opposition force and have them report back to you and then you get your staff together and organize a running party and determine that each of you runs in different directions....as per your posts.

You don't need to quickly do either 1 or 2. Doing so may be very stupid and get you killed. It may be nice to know, helpful, but you don't necessarily NEED to determine these things and you may not be able to determine them. Doing #3 seems to prove to be problematic time and time again. You have apparently never been in a building with gunfire, especially unexpected gunfire.

Which leads to another point. How have you determined it is gunfire? Various periods of time are routinely lost by non-officers, officers, and even military personnel in believing that the shooting going on is anything OTHER than actual gunfire, whether they believe it is backfiring cars, fireworks, pranks, or in the case of Fort Hood, a training simulation.

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In officer involved shootings, most of the time the officers cant hit what they are shooting at because they have no practice of firing at moving targets or firing while on the move or both.
Well then you will feel safe in running if it is an officer on a rampage, I guess, not that your assessment is based on factual data one way or the other, but officer involved shootings usually don't involve gunning down people simply running away from them, do they? And why do you think your gunman won't be a skilled shooter? You keep underestimating the opposition. You talk about assessing them, but have already assumed they are incompetent.
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Old September 30, 2013, 09:15 AM   #29
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You are going to have to make a decision at some point despite imperfect information and live with it. This is exactly how it is to lead a tactical team or an infantry platoon. At some point you have to say this is what we are going to do and live with the consequences. It isnt easy to do, but it can be done and becomes easier with planning and experience.
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Old September 30, 2013, 11:03 AM   #30
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It may be splitting hairs, but thinking in terms of 'E&E' (Escape and Evasion) suggests a more active set of responses than simple passive 'run/hide'.

Of course like others, I much prefer to be prepared to 'FIGHT/run/hide' if caught in such a horrendous scenario.
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Old September 30, 2013, 11:57 AM   #31
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Soft Target...

Soft Target is the name of the 2011 Steven Hunter novel.
Id add that US military research shows that the human eye is drawn to movement.
I also watched the DHS/Houston Texas Run Hide Fight clip again. I don't agree with all the points but there are some good tips in the video.
One section had a blurb that read; when calling 911, stay calm & avoid yelling or screaming.
That is not going to happen in a critical incident. People(untrained citizens) will panic, yell, fall, cry, go into shock, urinate or deficate themselves, puke, etc.
80/90% of most "eyewitnesses" are not going to give LE or first responders any real details either about weapons, equipment, descriptions, etc.
They might not know brand names, calibers, types of explosives, etc.
About 2 years ago, I was doing a security detail & had to explain to a police dispatcher what woodland color BDUs were.

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Old September 30, 2013, 12:42 PM   #32
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I beg to differ Clyde. Remember, we are not children, but grown adults and some of us have been through a few tight situations which required calmness, thought and creativity to get out of those situations. Ive seen a number of my relatives dead by now. Ive lived through their illnesses and saw them die. Im not afraid of a dead body having seen my own father in a box. Ive seen gunshot wounds up close. Ive seen people dead in the street. Ive had to evacuate out of a building as a result of a raging fire. Ive been in car accidents. I could go on...

I can imagine a small child panicing or someone under 30. If you are over 30, these situations shouldnt be so hard. There should be no screaming or panicing. If you are the oldest one in the group, you should be the calm head leading the younger ones out of the situation.

Now if you are over 30 and havent had much experience like seeing a dead body or a real bad wound. If you havent been in tight situations like a car accident, a fist fight or saw your relatives in boxes, etc. You need to sit down and think about life. You shouldnt be in a state of panic when these situations become a reality, but you should be the calm one having experienced life and know how to lead the younger set out of the situation.

Think about the last President. The planes hit the towers and he was in front of children. Did he leap up, start shouting or running around? He kept his cool and kept reading the book to protect the children. He might have been the leader of the United States, but when he was in front of that group of children he was the leader of them. Thats how you have to think. You are the oldest one in the room and so you are the leader. You hear the gunshots and its your time to take charge to protect the younger ones from whats going on. You make the decision what to do right, then and there without emotion. If getting up and locking the doors is all you can do, then do that, but dont lack activity. Dont let the others in the room panic. Its your job to see to it that they dont panic.
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Old September 30, 2013, 01:07 PM   #33
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It all depends on the circumstances...and you might not know them!

Of course, the safest place to be in a gunfight is somewhere else!
So, if you can safely exit the scene, that is your best option for personal safety.

If you don't know if you can escape, locking down may be a good option. Now, the tricky part here, in my opinion, is having a place that can be locked down quickly. If where you are is a modern building with glass windows/walls, etc, it's going to be hard to lock down. If you work in a hardened, secure place, the choice gets easier!

Personally, any time you lock down, also be prepared to fight. You have effectively locked yourself inside a perimeter. If that is breached by the shooter, you may not have a good escape route.
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Old September 30, 2013, 02:25 PM   #34
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Post #32...

Id respond to post #32 by saying; watch Run Hide Fight.
I agree that not every person in a large crowd will fold up like a lawn chair or go to pieces but some will.
The DHS video even makes that point, do not linger or waste time trying to get other victims/bystanders to act.
You may have nerves of steel or be a retired fire-fighter or served in MAC-V-SOG in southeast Asia but you are not going to aid 100s of people or a large group in something like a hotel or medical center or a mall.

Your best course of action is to leave & if necessary fight off any threats on your egress.
An active shooter incident or terrorist attack is not like Die Hard or Under Siege. You need to get out ASAP.
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Old September 30, 2013, 02:47 PM   #35
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I would run and try to avoid the conflict. The other sheep can fend for themselves.
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Old October 1, 2013, 09:16 AM   #36
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Be alert and decide on immediate assesment.

Remember incoming responders ARE going to NEUTRALIZE any non-recognized firearm being displayed, until the scene is secured!

I had always thought that if I found myself in such that holding a exit route open, while in communication with 911, would be a better course of action.

With recent events, I'm not sure???
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Old October 1, 2013, 03:54 PM   #37
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Sounds like, if you're holding a gun, you stand as good a chance of getting shot by the Calvary as you do by the Indians.

So are the 1st responders going to frisk everyone before they move on to get the bad guys? That could get really confusing, maybe they should bring a really big T.V. and show everyone a video to familiarize them with what's about to happen.
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Old October 1, 2013, 05:29 PM   #38
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I beg to differ Clyde. Remember, we are not children, but grown adults and some of us have been through a few tight situations which required calmness, thought and creativity to get out of those situations. Ive seen a number of my relatives dead by now. Ive lived through their illnesses and saw them die. Im not afraid of a dead body having seen my own father in a box. Ive seen gunshot wounds up close. Ive seen people dead in the street. Ive had to evacuate out of a building as a result of a raging fire. Ive been in car accidents. I could go on...

I can imagine a small child panicing or someone under 30. If you are over 30, these situations shouldnt be so hard. There should be no screaming or panicing. If you are the oldest one in the group, you should be the calm head leading the younger ones out of the situation.

Now if you are over 30 and havent had much experience like seeing a dead body or a real bad wound. If you havent been in tight situations like a car accident, a fist fight or saw your relatives in boxes, etc. You need to sit down and think about life. You shouldnt be in a state of panic when these situations become a reality, but you should be the calm one having experienced life and know how to lead the younger set out of the situation.
Been through all that and more. Even had to help a newsman that lost his cookies at a train vs pedestrian incident.
I've lived in an area called 'Little Beruit' for good reason. Somebody was paying a bounty of $10K for every shot cop. No matter how many shots were being fired, I'd hear dispatch on my scanner "You're not to enter the area until 2-4 backups arrive. Stay out!" This was SOP for at least two years in Richmond, Va.
What has served me in many such incidents was to duck,cover and draw at the same time and ascertain where the shots were coming from and where the bullets were headed before making my next move. When the PD entered, I reholstered. Some were freaked a few times, many were smart enough to consider me a good guy until proven otherwise. They don't just fire because they see you hunkered with a firearm at SUL. Especially if you're waving them up and pointing out the players. A phone really helps if you're on the line at the time and make sure they know who you are.

Recently at a local store, a shotgun blasted outside, in town. Everybody cocked their heads and when nothing else happened, we all went back to shopping. I noticed at least two ladies stuffing something back into a handbag and pocket respectively.
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Old October 1, 2013, 07:23 PM   #39
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Sounds like, if you're holding a gun, you stand as good a chance of getting shot by the Calvary as you do by the Indians.
Probably not for the first several, very long minutes.


Quote:
I can imagine a small child panicing or someone under 30. If you are over 30, these situations shouldnt be so hard. There should be no screaming or panicing. If you are the oldest one in the group, you should be the calm head leading the younger ones out of the situation.
You really haven't been in any sort of crisis involving the general public, have you?

Quote:
Remember, we are not children, but grown adults and some of us have been through a few tight situations which required calmness, thought and creativity to get out of those situations.
Not children yet believe it is age that determines who should be in control? Sounds very child-like to me.

FYI, not everyone in a crisis is a grown adult. Not all the adults are grown and not all the grown-ups are adult. People without training or preconsideration for a crisis will often revert back to more primal responses.

How YOU think people should be responding to a crisis has absolutely nothing to do with how most people will respond in a crisis. The age of 30 is not some magical number or age of enlightenment or maturity, much less so a time at which you can expect untrained people to be able to know how to conduct themselves in the most appropriate manner of whatever crisis in which they happen to find themselves.
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Old October 1, 2013, 07:27 PM   #40
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You wont have a weapon or equipment and can probably run faster then the shooter who is weighed down probably with at least 20 lbs.
He doesn't have to catch you.
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Old October 1, 2013, 09:47 PM   #41
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plus 1 on post 39....

I agree with post #39.
In critical incidents or major events, people of all ages will act in different ways.
I'd add that even if are armed, be alert to any danger signs & avoid being shot by the first responders.
The very first female FBI special agent killed in the line of duty was shot working a bank robbery detail. She left her assigned post & in the chaos, was shot to death by other LE officers.

I would also say that if you flee or escape, you may be detained or interviewed so try to recall as many details or descriptions as you can.
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Old October 1, 2013, 09:57 PM   #42
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Clydefrog said
Quote:
The very first female FBI special agent killed in the line of duty was shot working a bank robbery detail. She left her assigned post & in the chaos, was shot to death by other LE officers.
Even IF you do everything perfect, your fate in a dynamic active shooter situation may not be yours to chose.
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Old October 2, 2013, 08:46 PM   #43
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I can imagine a small child panicing or someone under 30. If you are over 30, these situations shouldnt be so hard. There should be no screaming or panicing. If you are the oldest one in the group, you should be the calm head leading the younger ones out of the situation.
Next time you're in a barn full of cattle, let off a string of fire crackers, and see how easy it is to lead the cattle out of the situation.

It'd be about the same if it were a bunch of people, and someone started shooting at them.

Just a few people not so bad, but if it's a lot of people, you'll trampled.

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Old October 2, 2013, 09:39 PM   #44
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author Brad Thor, LTC David Grosman US Army retired.....

In a recent novel, author Brad Thor quotes Lt Col David Grossman, author of On Killing & On Combat.
LTC Grossman, a retired US Army officer with a PhD said; People have 2 speeds in crowds; walk and STAMPEDE!

Clyde
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Old October 3, 2013, 12:49 AM   #45
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I was bored standing in line at tractor supply getting some new work pants the other day and saw Self Defense Magazine sitting on the counter, never had heard of it before so I scooped it up. They had a nice article on what to do in an active shooter situation. Similar to "Run, Hide, Fight" but tweaked, they call it "Get out, Lock out, Knock out" kind of cheesy but it got the point across.

First order of business is escape and aid other to do the same if possible. If option one fails you should attempt to barricade yourself in a room as opposed to just hiding in it. Using a belt to tie the arm on a hydraulic door was a nifty truck I never would have thought of. The idea is that an active shooter has one goal: create as many casualties as possible before the good guys arrive and he won't waste time trying to break into a fortified area unless he's after a specific person. Knock out is self explanatory, use a gun if you have one. If not use weapons of opportunity, fire extinguishers, laptops, chairs, etc and use numbers. Simply throwing an object(s) at a shooter can throw off his aim long enough for you and others to dogpile him.
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Old October 3, 2013, 09:48 AM   #46
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All those attack at the entry door with the fire extinguisher and dogpile suggestions assume a shooter who has no sense of how to enter a room or pick a high density target that has minimized these defensive tactics.

My rant is that they are put forward as alternatives to carry.

Not that if you are stuck you shouldn't try but the suggestion that such negate armed defense annoys me.
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Old October 3, 2013, 10:49 AM   #47
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The one time I heard a gunshot in a building (not a firing range) was at a gun show. Accidental discharge - guy got shot in the foot. Several interesting things: 1) no one ran; 2) no one took cover; 3) It was easy to determine the general direction of the gun shot; 4) EVERYONE froze; 5) You've never heard a gun show so utterly silent for about 10 seconds.
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Old October 3, 2013, 03:42 PM   #48
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Same deal here, Skans, but nobody was injured. Big open rooms are easier to get an idea of sound orientation than a building with lots of hallways that interconnect like many schools, plants, or office buildings.

That nobody reacted is fairly typical. Nothing like being at a gun show full of tacticool condition yellow 24/7 types and watch them all stand around like idiots waiting to be the next person shot. Of course, I felt like an idiot because I was hunkered down when nobody else was. My buddy said to me, "What, you thought you might get shot?"

Several things go on with this sort of mentality. There is the initial confusion and processing of what went on and what should be done. 10 seconds is a long time. I would say it was closer to 15 where I was and nobody responded until security entered the hall and made their way toward the event.

So people stood around like zombies, waiting to see what would happen next, or maybe they didn't understand. Either way, they engaged in the same sort of behavior reported time and again at these events where people express initial confusion or outright disbelief that anything bad could be happening. They are more apt to assume that the noise or noises was something not dangerous than something dangerous.

While I could tell direction, I had no idea of distance. People pointed toward two different corners, which I found interesting. I think that had to do with the fact of the echo of the report that they heard. Both corners were on the same end of the building, but depending on where you were, the direction of the shot seemed to vary.

Apparently, if you hear one shot, there is no reason to be concerned because another one is not likely to follow. That is what was explained to me by one of the vendors. I thought this was great. You know some idiot just discharged a gun, but you don't know with the first shot if it was accidental or intentional, and so you wait to decided on seeking safety only after reverifying the threat which occurs with multiple shots. Apparently, nobody wants to be the first to run if it turns out the discharge wasn't intentional.

So people will stand still and quiet for an extended period of time, like perfect targets...

Yeah, I thought I might get shot. Shots are not supposed to ring out at gun shows.
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Old October 3, 2013, 04:27 PM   #49
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That nobody reacted is fairly typical. Nothing like being at a gun show full of tacticool condition yellow 24/7 types and watch them all stand around like idiots waiting to be the next person shot. Of course, I felt like an idiot because I was hunkered down when nobody else was. My buddy said to me, "What, you thought you might get shot?"

So true!
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Old October 3, 2013, 04:38 PM   #50
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Quote:
That nobody reacted is fairly typical. Nothing like being at a gun show full of tacticool condition yellow 24/7 types and watch them all stand around like idiots waiting to be the next person shot. Of course, I felt like an idiot because I was hunkered down when nobody else was. My buddy said to me, "What, you thought you might get shot?"

So true!
It *might be* that gun show guys have heard it before, many in combat.
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