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Old September 18, 2013, 05:44 AM   #1
Bill Akins
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Need advice on Rem 11, (2 in tube) "Sportsman" version, tube extension.

Just picked up my Remington 11 "Sportman" version of the shotgun that only accepts 2 in the tube. Was actually looking for a Win model 50 but couldn't pass up the good deal on this one.

My intention is to extend the shell tube to allow for more shells. I took the forearm bolt out that holds the fore stock on, and immediately see that the gun doesn't have the same screw on tube cap like the NON Sportsman Remy 11 has. In other words instead of the Sportsman having external threads on its tube, which would allow an 870 or 1100 tube extension with longer spring to just be screwed on (and with a spacer would hold the wood in the correct position to hold the barrel in the correct position), instead, my "Sportsman" Remy has a plug with dimples in it that holds the plug in, and has an offset threaded hole in that plug that the fore arm bolt goes into. Thus precluding any possibility of screwing an extension tube onto that existing tube as it currently is.

I thought about drilling out the dimples and tapping external threads onto the exterior of the tube, so I could use the 870 or 1100 tube extension, and may do that, however, if I do that I have to be careful to make sure the threads will match up with the fore end so the barrel is correctly placed in the receiver, plus I'd have to acquire a NON "Sportsman" Remy 11 fore end. Since my tube doesn't have a screw on cap, the fore end wood is also not made for a screw end cap, and instead simply has a small hole in its front most end, to allow the bolt to go in. Also the tube obviously does not extend out the end of the fore stock, but is under the wood inside the fore stock so that the bolt goes through the wood and then into the tube cap.

That means I can't use that existing "Sportsman" fore end wood with a tube extension unless I do some shortening modification to the fore stock that will allow the end of the old tube (that I would thread) to extend beyond the end of the wood, and be in the correct position, so that the ledge on the rear end of the extension tube would keep the wood in the correct position to keep the barrel in the correct position. I'd like to avoid butchering up the fore stock if possible.

Even if I drilled out the end of the fore stock so the extension tube could pass through it, that wouldn't work either since the wood is necessary to hold the barrel in place and if I drilled out the fore end, the barrel would just pull right off and not be shootable.

I thought about trying to get a NON Sportsman Remy 11 tube, cap and fore stock that would allow me to add an 870 or 1100 tube extension to it as long as I used a spacer. But that could be cost prohibitive to get those parts. But if that is the only way to do this, I may have to.

I also thought about making my own extension tube from scratch but there's still the problem of how to keep the wood on the tube at the correct position to hold the barrel at the correct position. Please don't advise for me to "leave it alone and use as is", since my entire purpose in buying it was to extend the tube for more ammo capacity. If that is someone's only advice, then please withhold that advice.

Any suggestions to accomplish this would be greatly appreciated.


.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 18, 2013 at 05:59 AM.
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Old September 18, 2013, 06:54 AM   #2
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Old September 18, 2013, 07:19 AM   #3
Bill Akins
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Not exactly sure why you wanted to insult or dig at me Goatwhiskers. But obviously you didn't read my next to last sentence in my first post, wherein I asked members to withhold any non helpful to my goal advice. Yes my mind is made up to increase the mag tube. And I am not "confused with the facts", since I am fully aware of the facts regarding the mechanical operation and the type of loading tube on this shotgun (as evidenced by my first post), but I also know that there is actually several ways to achieve what I want to do. I'm just looking for the easiest way and any helpful, non insulting, suggestions to do that. Obviously you aren't able to contribute such.



.
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"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 18, 2013 at 07:26 AM.
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Old September 24, 2013, 03:57 AM   #4
Bill Akins
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I have come to realize that no tube extension would fit my Remington model 11 "Sportsman version" 3 shot (if one is chambered) mag tube, because the end of my mag tube has a screwed in block in it, that said block is also threaded to accept the long knurled end bolt that holds on the wooden fore end. On the model 11 Sportsman 3 shot model, this tube was made this way to ensure no mag tube extension could be used. So the tube itself is totally different from a standard model 11 tube. My tube is only threaded on its exterior receiver end. The muzzle end of the tube is not threaded on its exterior, like a standard model 11 is (which has both exterior ends threaded).
Instead the muzzle end of my tube is threaded on its inside and has that round block threaded into it, and said block is also threaded to accept that long knurled end bolt I spoke of. So no kind of tube extension of any kind could work with my "Sportsman" tube.

Being resolute to extend my shell capacity to more than three shots, this evening I removed the mag tube from the receiver. It was really hard to remove. I had tried soaking it in half transmission fluid, half acetone, for a full day. It still wouldn't budge. I had removed the fore end guide ring and its screw, and also removed the magazine stop screw as I saw in the
exploded drawing of the Remy. Next I tried heating the receiver around the tube with a propane torch. Still wouldn't budge. Finally I had to drill a hole all the way through the tube and insert a metal rod all the way through it and with the receiver firmly in a padded vice, I was finally able to whack the metal rod so it loosened the mag tube and I was finally able to screw it off.

I have found a source online that has a standard (NOT "sportsman") Remington model 11 mag tube (five shots if one chambered) and I am going to order that. Then I will get a Remy 870 or 1100 tube extension and finally
will be able to accomplish my goal. I don't need the standard tube cap because the tube extension's "head" will serve as my tube cap as well as having the extended spring. I'll either mill down the threads 1/4 inch on the end of the mag tube I'm ordering, or else just use a spacer to make everything fit. I heard that the split spring from the friction ring is just the right width to act as a spacer between the standard 5 shot (with one chambered) tube, and the tube extension. So I might pick up an extra one of those friction ring springs to act as a spacer. Rather do that than mill down the tube threads.

So I think I have this project well in hand now. Unfortunately I had to totally destroy my old mag tube to get it off, and also had to saw it in half just to get the magazine follower out of it since it was binding on the edges of the hole I had to drill through the tube.

Not sure if I'm going to cut the 30 inch barrel down or not yet and relocate the front sight base. It depends on what it looks like after I get the extension tube attached to the standard tube I'm ordering. Will make my decision then. It will primarily be a home defense gun, but I might still like to use that long barrel sometimes for birds or skeet by simply unscrewing the tube extension for doing that. I lean towards not cutting the barrel. Might even get a used short barrel and keep my long one. Might be the best answer.

It's a lot harder to do this mag extension on the Remington 11 "Sportsman" 3 shot model than it is on a five shot standard model 11. But I see now that it can be done. Hands were too dirty to hold a camera, and too tired after cleaning up to take pics. I kept all the parts and will take pics to post later for the benefit of anyone else who might want to modify their Remy model 11, 3 shot version "Sportsman" to have an extended magazine tube.




.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 24, 2013 at 04:09 AM.
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Old September 24, 2013, 05:43 AM   #5
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Interesting project. I'd love to see pictures.
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Old September 24, 2013, 07:33 AM   #6
jaguarxk120
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What is wrong with three shots?

If you can't kill the bird with three, what is the extra two shots going to do?
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Old September 24, 2013, 12:35 PM   #7
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It seems to simply be a project... what more reason does one need?

Brent
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Old September 24, 2013, 01:53 PM   #8
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Because he wants to, and its his gun.
Glad you found a way around your problem.
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Old September 25, 2013, 11:31 AM   #9
Bill Akins
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Quote:
jaguarxk120 wrote:
What is wrong with three shots? If you can't kill the bird with three, what is the extra two shots going to do?
I had earlier specifically posted the following so people would understand why I wanted increased magazine capacity.....

"It will primarily be a home defense gun, but I might still like to use that long barrel sometimes for birds or skeet by simply unscrewing the tube extension for doing that. I lean towards not cutting the barrel. Might even get a used short barrel and keep my long one. Might be the best answer."

Three shots should be sufficient for Elmer Fudd to hunt "Wabbits" or birds with. But why limit one's self to only three shots with a home defense shotgun? And I wouldn't keep a round chambered all the time in a home defense shotgun due to safety, so that would mean my Remy model 11 "Sportsman" version (only two in the mag tube), would only have two shots in the event of having to use it for home defense. Relying on only two shots isn't enough for home defense in my opinion. Why limit my defense unnecessarily?

As I said, it will be used PRIMARILY as a home defense shotgun. That is why I want to increase it's magazine tube capacity to hold more than two. I also want the option of being able to detach the magazine extension and use it for skeet or bird hunting, or any other kind of hunting that only allows for three shots. So it can easily be a higher capacity shell holding home defense shotgun, or easily remove the mag extension so it has a four shot tube again (that standard Remy 11 tube incorrectly called a "five shot tube" by online suppliers when it only really holds four and it is only a "five shooter" gun if a round is CHAMBERED), and said four shot tube can always have a wooden plug put in it to make it a two shot tube so with one chambered it is only a three shooter again (if chambered),....if desired. Then with a Remy 870 or 1100 tube extension, that adds an extra four more shells (if you get that capacity version of extension), that makes the shotgun an eight shooter if it isn't chambered, or a nine shooter if it is chambered. Or only a three shooter (if chambered) if the mag extension is unscrewed and a wooden block inserted into the standard Remy 11 mag tube. Best of both worlds that way, for hunting or self defense.


.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 25, 2013 at 11:55 AM.
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Old September 25, 2013, 06:22 PM   #10
Bill Akins
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Okay, got some pics taken for you today.

Below, here's the tube I removed. You will note the hole in it that I had to drill to insert a steel rod into to remove the tube from the receiver. Also you will note I had to cut the tube (right over the drilled hole), to be able to remove the spring follower since the follower was binding on the edges of the hole I had to drill. The hole in the follower was already there. I didn't drill that. In fact I placed a piece of wood into the rear of the tube, and drilled through the wood, so that the follower was out of the way of my drill.

You will also note that the "Sportsman" version of the Remy model 11's tube, has one receiver end that is externally threaded, while the muzzle end is internally threaded to accept a screwed in tube cap that is also threaded to accept the fore end retainer bolt (more on that further on).




Below, is a pic of the inside of the cut mag tube, (with steel shavings from drilling and hack sawing) showing the small internal tube that is permanently there to prevent loading more than two shells. The spring fits over the smaller tube. Actually the "sportsman" mag tube is the same length as a standard four shot Remy mag tube. It has to be for the recoil system to work using the same lug on the barrel, otherwise Remington would have to have made barrels with lugs to go over the mag tube in different locations. But the smaller diameter steel tube prevents using more than two shells. If one doesn't want to remove their "sportsman" tube, but would like two more shells to fit in it, they can simply take a small punch (or screwdriver) and tap the edges of the tube out of the screwed in cap's slot edges, and then unscrew the cap, (which is what the small diameter tube is attached to) and then saw off that small tube, screw the cap back on, peen the edges of the tube back into the edges of the cap slot, and viola! they now have a four shot tube. But be advised they can't add a tube extension to it, so four shots is all they will have. Still, that's a quick fix from two shots to four shots if one doesn't want to replace their "sportsman" tube.


Below is the muzzle end of the mag tube before I cut it. You can see the screwed in tube cap that is also threaded for the fore end bolt, which prevents using any kind of mag tube extension on the "Sportsman" version of the Remy 11 shotgun. The mag tube on the STANDARD Remy 11 (NON "sportsman" version), is totally different. It is hard to see in this pic, but at the ends of the slot, the tube is "peened" inward into the edges of that slot on both sides of the slot. To remove this cap, you have to use a screwdriver or something that will fit into the edges of the slot, and tap the tube edges back out, so that you can then unscrew the cap. Then if you want four shells instead of two, once you unscrew the cap, you can cut off that smaller tube that is attached to the cap, so you can load four instead of only two shells. Then screw the cap back on, peen the edges of the tube back into the edges of the cap slot, and you are done. But I wanted more than just four shots. So I didn't do that. But it is an easy fix to get two more shots if one doesn't want to remove their tube and replace it with a standard Remy tube so that they can then add a tube extension to get 8 shots in the tube, which is what I am doing.


Below is the knurled bolt that holds the fore end to that threaded screwed in tube end that I spoke of in the above paragraph. A standard Remy 11, NON "sportsman" version, has a totally different wooden fore end and tube cap.


Below is the muzzle end of the fore end that shows the hole for the bolt to go through to secure the fore end wooden piece on my Remy 11 "sportsman" model. The holes in the steel piece on the end of the fore end, are to catch the spring loaded detent that is in the bolt, so it won't accidentally unscrew. This wooden fore end is totally different on STANDARD model 11 Remys, since the standard Remy 11's tube's muzzle end is threaded on its exterior and extends out past the end of the wooden fore end. This is the difference between the Remy 11 "sportsman" version and a standard Remy 11 that isn't a "sportsman" version. The "sportsman" tube was intended to prevent loading more than two shells. So you either unscrew the cap and cut off the smaller tube that prevents loading two more shells, or else you replace the tube completely with a standard four shell Remy tube, that is threaded on its exterior muzzle end, that also will allow you to add a tube extension,....of which I am doing the latter.


Continued next post due to six pics per limit on posts....




.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 25, 2013 at 11:47 PM.
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Old September 25, 2013, 07:31 PM   #11
Bill Akins
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Continued from previous post.

I was in luck. A friend of mine had a spare STANDARD Remy 11 wooden fore end and tube, and is sending it to me. I ordered a standard tube cap so I can use the standard Remy 11 tube without an extension if I want to for skeet or bird or other hunting. And the standard Remy 11 tube, will also allow me to unscrew the standard cap, and screw on a tube extension. Here's the tube and wooden fore end pieces my friend is sending me. Of course I'll clean up the wooden fore end so it is more presentable.

Notice in this below pic that the receiver end of the standard Remy 11 tube is fine threaded to screw into the receiver.


And in this below pic, notice that the muzzle end of the mag tube is coarse threaded to accept the standard Remy 11 tube cap that holds on the standard Remy 11 wooden fore end.



Notice in the above pic, that the muzzle end of the STANDARD Remy 11 wooden fore end (my friend is sending me), is squared off and not like the beavertail muzzle end of my "sportsman" version. Compare the above photo of the standard wooden fore end with the below pic of my "sportsman" fore end. See how the muzzle end of my wooden fore end slopes up into somewhat of a "beavertail"?


I was going to get the plastic Ramline stock for the Browning auto 5, which the fore end fits the STANDARD Remy model 11 perfectly, but the butt portion needs to be dremel and drill modified to fit, plus the tang of the Remy receiver must be heated up and bent straighter, (since the Browning's tang is straighter, and thus you have to replicate the angle of the Browning's tang in order to use the butt portion of the Ramline stock), but if the wooden fore end my friend is sending me is not split or not split badly, I'll just stick to the wood since my existing wooden butt portion is in good shape and I don't relish heating up my tang to bend it, nor do I want an accident where I might snap off the tang, not after all this work.

For those who might want to know how to set their friction rings for different loads on ANY Remy model 11, Browning auto 5 or Savage 720, here's a drawing that shows how to do that.


And here's an exploded drawing of the Remington model 11 showing the parts. Note this is the STANDARD Remy 11, and NOT the Remy 11 "sportsman" version.


As a historical note, the Remington model 11, was used to train aircraft gunners during WW2. Here's a pic of a Remy 11 mounted to simulate an aircraft machine gun for aircraft gunnery training. This is similar to what I want to do with a Winchester model 50, since its barrel is stationary and doesn't move, and thus I can put a water jacket on it to keep it cool, since my next project after this one, is to make a inverted, hopper fed, crank fired, water cooled shotgun. That one won't be a quick project for sure.


I'll post more pics when I get the tube and fore end my friend is sending installed, and also when I get the tube extension installed. Might be a week or more til I get the parts from him and get the four shell tube extension ordered and installed, which will give me 8 shots unchambered, nine shots chambered. Much better for home defense than a two shot tube. I hope my project helps someone else with their Remy 11 "sportsman" version, as well as the standard Remy 11.


.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; September 25, 2013 at 11:45 PM.
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Old October 7, 2013, 01:19 PM   #12
Bill Akins
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Okay, got the mag tube and wooden fore end installed that my friend sent me. The wood finish on the fore end is a bit weathered, but I will clean that up soon. I just wanted to get everything installed and see how it shot. I had never fired it with the two shot tube, and wanted to make sure everything was operating correctly before I got into refinishing the wood.

Here's what she looks like now with the two shot tube and fore end replaced with the five shot tube and regular model 11 wooden fore end.


Here's a closer pic of the five shot tube and regular model 11 fore end.


and here....


See how that above wooden fore end is square on its muzzle end and not tapered like in the two below pics of my wooden fore end of my 2 shot "Sportsman" version? Totally different fore ends.



When I screwed in the five shot tube into my receiver, I got it tightly all the way in, but for some reason the hole in the tube for the magazine stop screw did not line up with the screw hole in the receiver. So I had to drill another hole in the tube. No problem and it went well. Ordinarily there are two holes in the mag tube end where it screws into the receiver. But mine only had one hole...(the hole for the mag stop screw that didn't line up with the screw hole on the receiver). The second hole (that my newer tube didn't have), is for the fore end guide ring setscrew. Both screws have a tiny little plunger end on them, that just barely goes through the thickness of the mag tube without coming out the other side.

The purpose of the mag stop screw is to put that little plunger end of the screw into the hole in the mag tube, (without it going past the thickness of the mag tube), to prevent the mag tube from unscrewing. But it isn't really necessary because it is so tight and a bit hard to screw that mag tube into the receiver all the way, there is NO WAY that mag tube will unscrew even if there were no screw to hold it from unscrewing.

I will have to also drill a hole in the mag tube for the fore end guide ring screw. Because that is what keeps the fore end guide ring aligned correctly for both its flat end being aligned with the barrel, and for the alignment of the wooden fore end to slide over the guide ring. But since there was no hole there for my fore end guide ring screw, I will have to drill one for it too. But for now, I just lined up the fore end guide ring, and tightened the fore end guide ring screw down against the tube and that will hold it well enough until I get it back in my shop again to drill the hole. Here's a pic of those screws so you will know what I am talking about.....


I also was surprised to find out that my newer installed tube holds a full five shells instead of the four I thought it would hold. Making the Remy a six shooter if one is chambered with the mag tube fully loaded. That was nice to discover.

I loaded up five shells in the tube and took it off the back porch, and aimed at an old cereal box I had set up in the back yard using Winchester "Super-Target" 2&3/4", 1&1/8th oz, 7&1/2 shot, 1200fps velocity, shells. It fired the first three shots fine, but then hung up feeding a little on the last two and I had to fiddle with them to get them to feed. I discovered two reasons why. The old two shot spring wasn't exerting enough pressure against the five shells in the mag tube AND I had the friction rings set to heavy loads. So I took the spring out of the mag tube, stretched it a bit, plus I changed the positions of the friction rings from "heavy loads" to "light loads" and loaded up again. All next five shots fired perfectly in rapid succession, tore that cereal box up and even jumped it into the air and moved it around on the ground between my shots as I hit it every time. It was a good feeling getting everything working right. Success. So end of phase one.

I plan to add a Nordic mag tube extension tube to it. The Nordic extension tube has its end that screws onto your old tube as a separate piece. So this means you don't need to install a spacer between the tube and tube extension. Also when I get the Nordic tube extension, I will get the much longer spring that comes with it. That will replace my old spring I stretched out a little to enable feeding correctly.

My son and I took it clay bird shooting at the "Tampa bay shooting clays" range yesterday. It performed flawlessly. So I finally got my two shot tube, Remy 11 "Sportsman" version, changed over to the standard five shot tube of the standard Remy 11 version. Now on to phase two, of getting the Nordic tube extension and getting that put on the gun. I will post more when I get that.

All for now.



.
__________________
"This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather".
"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; October 7, 2013 at 01:48 PM.
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Old October 12, 2013, 01:12 AM   #13
stepmac
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While they made the Browning Auto 5 to take either 5 or in a later version 3 shells why in the world would anyone want to extend the magazine of a Model 11 to take more shells?

You have a guy in your house? Take two shots. Just chambering the round will probably run the guy out of your home. If you actually see someone inside your home and you have your shotgun in your hands one shot will be plenty. Okay take two. At close range no one is going to be able to tolerate one shot of buckshot and two is definitely over kill.
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Old October 12, 2013, 09:10 AM   #14
Bill Akins
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Quote:
Stepmac wrote:
While they made the Browning Auto 5 to take either 5 or in a later version 3 shells why in the world would anyone want to extend the magazine of a Model 11 to take more shells?
Elmer Fudd comes to mind. I need more shells because....."Be vwery, vwery quiet, I'm hunting lots and lots of wabbits!"

You might as well ask me:....
Why would anyone NEED or WANT....one of those military assault rifles? Why would anyone NEED or WANT....a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds? Why would anyone NEED or WANT.....a magazine that holds 30 rounds? Why would anyone NEED or WANT....these assault weapons of mass destruction? Why would anyone NEED or WANT a car that can go over the speed limit? There oughta be a law! Oh, wait, there are laws like that in some states. Isn't that a good thing? It certainly decreases crime doesn't it?

Do you realize how "Elmer Fudd-ian" (thinking) and actually anti-gunner (unless its a two or three shot) you sounded with your question/statement? Do you realize this?

The answer to your question is simple,....Because it's my gun and that's what I want to do with it.

Quote:
Stepmac wrote:
You have a guy in your house? Take two shots. Just chambering the round will probably run the guy out of your home. If you actually see someone inside your home and you have your shotgun in your hands one shot will be plenty. Okay take two. At close range no one is going to be able to tolerate one shot of buckshot and two is definitely over kill.
Thank you Mr Vice President. Those two shots is all I really....NEED. Gosh, I don't want you nor anyone else questioning why I would want more than a two shot assault weapon of mass destruction. That wouldn't be politically correct and I need to keep my round count down so I won't offend anyone. I'll be sure to fire one in the air for a warning shot and also shoot through the door before I'm sure of my target too, just like you suggested to the public in your address to them regarding getting a shotgun Mr Vice President. Then after I fire two shots, I'll be empty, but it's okay, no worries, all my armed secret service agents will protect me then.....oh wait, that's right, I don't have any........

.....hence my reason for wanting an extended mag tube.

Gosh I love being questioned and asked to justify WHY I feel a NEED or a WANT to extend my shell capacity. There really should be a law that people have to explain a NEED to the authorities first,....before they are allowed to own a shotgun that fires more than two shots without reloading, shouldn't there be? Oh wait, there is, in places like England.

I hate to be critical of what people write, and I don't like arguments or discord, we are here to learn and have a good time sharing with fellow gunners, but damn, just damn,.....people please think about how you are going to sound before putting pen to paper.


.
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"To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

Last edited by Bill Akins; October 13, 2013 at 04:40 AM.
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