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Old September 26, 2013, 10:15 AM   #1
madmo44mag
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03 FFl Question - dispositon ????

I have a firearm in my 03 collection a friend wants and he has ammo I want.
I have not found anything in the rules that says I can NOT trade the firearm for the ammo.
Anyone have any input on this?
Have I missed the rule?
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Old September 26, 2013, 01:43 PM   #2
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It does not matter what (if anything) you get in return for the firearm you dispose of, no need to record anything like that. All you need is the person's name, addy, phone #, license #, FFL #, etc.
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Old September 26, 2013, 02:17 PM   #3
noelf2
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^ Correct

You just fill in the required info on the disposition form in your bound book.
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Old September 26, 2013, 02:31 PM   #4
madmo44mag
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That is exactly what I thought.
Never traded a gun for ammo before out of my collection but based on all the regs, I could not find anything that said I could not.
I figured I'd throw it out there in case I did miss something.
Thanks guys.
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Old September 26, 2013, 06:24 PM   #5
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There is no law or rule that says an 03 FFL holder cannot sell his guns or trade up. But he can't "engage in the business" of buying and selling guns. Buy guns for a collection and sell one maybe a couple of times a year - OK. Buy a thousand guns at a time and peddle them to the local gang bangers - not OK.

To my limited knowledge, the only time C&R licensees get in trouble is when a crime gun is traced to them and it is revealed that guns they are doing business selling guns to the wrong people.

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Old September 27, 2013, 11:23 AM   #6
jonnyc
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I still don't understand how some 03 guys get away with buying multiples of the same gun with the intention of keeping one and selling the others. To me, buying something with the intention of selling it IS business.
Oh well.
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Old September 27, 2013, 12:08 PM   #7
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Jonnyc,

I agree. I can see trying to buy several guns so the best of the lot can be kept and the rest sold, but that comes very close to buying with the intention of selling which, as you say, is the definition of doing business.

I have seen C&R collectors brag about buying up to a hundred guns at a time, and know of one who got into trouble (I don't know the full story) when several crime guns were traced to him. I have heard that BATFE now requires distributors to report multiple sales to 03 license holders, so that might put a damper on some of the worse shenanigans.

(BTW, the C&R license is a target of the anti-gun gang, along with the CMP, and any problems they learn about add to their ammuniton.)

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Old September 28, 2013, 09:14 AM   #8
jonnyc
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I can see buying a hundred gun collection to get a few you want and then disposing of the rest. However I've read numerous posts from guys who say they bought a case of Mosins and then sold all but one for a profit.
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Old September 28, 2013, 03:58 PM   #9
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Like many laws it is up to the interpretation of the BATF, an agent of the BATF, and a prosecutor.
My choice is play it safe, and not let my freedom, or finances up the the interpretation of a Federal Bureaucrat! So I don't buy a case to pick the best, and sell the rest.
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Old September 28, 2013, 08:21 PM   #10
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Amen to that.
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Old September 28, 2013, 08:42 PM   #11
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It isn't going to be at the whim of a bureaucrat. All that has to happen is that you have a gun sold to you by a distributor tied to a murder. Then the state cops and BATFE ask how that happened, and the next sound you hear is handcuffs clicking.

The illegal dealer who thinks his customers will shield him is really stupid. Those guys would rat out their mothers to get ten minutes off their own sentences, so you better bet they will tell the cops where they got the gun, how much they paid and the percentage of remaining finish, per the Blue Book.

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Old September 30, 2013, 01:41 PM   #12
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Hypothetically, what if you sold the remaining guns in the crate (after selecting the few to enhance your collection) at a loss? You could hardly be accused of "being in the business" then.
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Old September 30, 2013, 02:58 PM   #13
madmo44mag
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I have on a few of occasions bought two or three guns from the same source at the same time but they were sold out of my collection over time.
I would keep the best of the group and sell the others.
I never sold them at a profit because they went to other collectors or people just getting started collecting.
Since no profit was made it could not be considered or conceived as a business.
I'm in to this as fun - hobby and have no desire to profit from it.
It is about the history to me and the sharing of that history.
Now not to say if some one offered me a nice profit I may take it but when
furthering my collection the end goal is the improve said collection and not make money.
I have know a few folks that have bought cases of rifles and kept one or two and sold the rest at a profit and I just don't see how that falls inside the ATF rules.
But their side is, is that they have not violated any laws because they are furthering their collection bla, bla, bla.
Well ok, I guess.
I just don't see it that way.
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Old September 30, 2013, 04:43 PM   #14
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jsmaye, a hypothetical loss is the same as a hypothetical profit. Numerous sales of C&R guns is problematic and can get you in real trouble. Keep it to a minimum, and occasional, you should be OK. Rent a table at a show 3 times a year, or run an ad locally for 2 months, you're in the danger zone.

There is nowhere on the FFL03 Disposition Record for the amount of the sale, or value. It doesn't matter. What matters is buying multiple guns with the intent of selling them on. Collectors collect, not sell, as a rule.
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Old September 30, 2013, 05:38 PM   #15
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Folks can nitpick about whether and how much money they have to make to be in business, but I guarantee that if a gun sold by a "collector" is used at somewhere like the Washington Navy Yard, the "collector" is going to be in a lot of trouble, whether he made a profit or not, whether he sold one gun or a hundred. BATFE WILL find some violation of the law to take the guy's license and probably toss him in jail.

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Old October 2, 2013, 04:22 AM   #16
Andy Griffith
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Best thing to do if you are a type 3 holder is to have all "outgoing" pieces to go through an 01 FFL, as an added layer of security.

Either that, or never sell anything- which is always the best option.
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Old October 2, 2013, 08:48 AM   #17
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If you follow the rules and both the letter and spirit of C&R law, you don't need an 01 for extra security.
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Old October 8, 2013, 11:14 AM   #18
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Here is the text of the code:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18 U.S.C. ยง 921(a)(21)(C)
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
I think the argument could be made that the one time buying of a crate of Mosins, sorting and keeping the best examples and selling the rest would not fall under the definition " regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms".

I would not make that argument, while it is fuzzy if it falls under the letter of the law, that is clearly not the spirit of the law, and not what congress envisioned as "collector" activity.
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Old October 8, 2013, 01:31 PM   #19
jonnyc
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True. It would however be interesting to hear what an ATF inspector would have to say about 2 or 3 or 4 case-quantity sales of rifles shown in your Bound-Book.
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Old October 9, 2013, 03:56 PM   #20
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Best thing to do if you are a type 3 holder is to have all "outgoing" pieces to go through an 01 FFL, as an added layer of security.

Either that, or never sell anything- which is always the best option.


Then why bother to have a C & R? Just buy and sell through the 01 FFL.

The law is clear. The BATF has to show evidence that the 03 holder is behaving like a dealer (person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms); collector's collect, yes, but stamp collectors also collect and sell some of their stamps. Gun collectors can be expected to sell off some of their collection just as the law has specifiec. Buying several specimens to keep the best does not fit the criteria above for a dealer when done 'occasionally' (yes, that's vague'). Now do it monthly or weekly and that's likely not 'occasionally. Just MHO
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