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Old September 22, 2013, 05:46 PM   #1
Dreaming100Straight
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Do these mods to a skeet gun make sense?

This is the deal. I shoot a Citori XS Skeet with 30" barrels, but 95% of the time I shoot trap. Presently it has the OEM parallel stock.

Being the stubborn cuss that I am, I didn't listen to some folks who told me to get the model with the adjustable comb that would allow me to raise the POI for trap and lower the POI for skeet.

I struggled mightily for two years with my mount and whatever until all fell in place just a couple of months ago. The gun now fits rather well, but this is after losing 28 pounds. Before I lost it the gun needed some cast off, which is something I could have easily dialed in with an adjustable comb. Should I gain some weight back, I still need cast off.

So I am pretty much sold on having my stock cut by Gracoil for an AC. What I am less sure about is whether to get a Gracoil recoil reducing butt plate. I have read and have a pretty good idea of what it does and how well it does it. Yes there are better systems but they are more costly and I don't think I would want to spend $1500 for a recoil absorbing stock like a square D or J&S Air Shock on a $3,000 Citori. If I get anything it will likely be the Gracoil and possible the Bumpmaster.

The issue is if I should add either. I know that I can reduce recoil more by shooting a lighter load of shot and I intend to do just that as my game improves, but isn't a Gracoil plus a 7/8 oz of shot going to have less recoil than no Gracoil plus the same load?

As it is I have some cervical disc problems that are only going to get worse with time which is why I am tempted to get the Gracoil. Still, I am hesitant to do so not because of the cost but I don't want to mess up a gun. I have heard that it doesn't really throw balance off by that much since to keep my LOP they will have to cut an inch or more of the butt. If I get anything I am getting the one with the adjustable LOP.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan? Some tell me to just shoot a Semi and some tell me I should get a dedicated trap gun, but even if it was trap gun I think I would need a recoil reducing butt stock. Of course it would seem to make more sense to put the money into the higher end recoil reducers, like the Square D, if I was shooting a $6,000 gun. My gut is to keep the XS Skeet and go with an AC and a Gracoil.
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:02 PM   #2
340 Weatherby
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The feeling you get from a 25 Straight......PRICELESS!!!!
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Old September 22, 2013, 06:16 PM   #3
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Disc problems are tricky...and I'm no physician / but it seems to me, that with disc problems, its not just recoil that may bother you - but it also might be the weight of the gun as you get older - and go forward. You can overcome a lot of recoil by reducing your loads from 1 1/8 oz, to 1 oz, 7/8 oz or 3/4 oz of shot.....but you can't really reduce the weight of the gun if that weight becomes a strain on your discs, neck, or whatever....

The other issue, if you care, is resale of the gun down the road....with a Citori XS Skeet model, most of us would not prefer it for Trap, because it can't be adjusted to shoot high enough for Trap....vs 50%/50% or so for Skeet...and the Gracoil recoil reduction system is not popular on skeet guns / where it is more common on Trap guns. So I'm afraid, if you put the GraCoil system in it - then it might be harder to sell as a "skeet or sporting clays gun" down the road, which is what a Citori XS Skeet - is really best suited for / vs the longer and heavier Citori XT Trap. Even with the adj comb a Citori XS Skeet will not typically shoot as high as a Citori XT...but then it depends on how high you really want it to shoot. Some trap shooters like an 80/20 poi ..some 70/30 and some 60/40 ....and personally I fall into the 60%/40% over POI ....but I still prefer a heavier and longer gun ( 10 lbs and 32" barrels - for Trap as a dedicated Trap gun).

The adj comb is always a smart investment ...whether its the factory version or done by Gracoil, Jack West, Briley, etc...its a smart investment.

I would go with just the adj comb .....and then reduce my loads to 1oz, or 7/8 oz or even down to 3/4 oz to manage the recoil ....and not put the Gra Coil system into the XS Skeet...and basically maintain it as a desireable skeet and sporting clays gun down the road. ( and you can still shoot it for Trap )...

and then just see how the disc problem is moving forward....buy my concern would be, that you'll need a lighter gun down the road if your neck causes you some issues ...( like around 6 lbs ) ..../ like a Benelli Super Sport model in 20ga...as well as drop down to a typical 7/8 oz or even a 3/4 oz load in that 20ga ...to make it a light and softer shooting gun for you - if your discs cause you a problem.

but that's my thoughts.../ and good luck / ....you've done great with the weight loss.../ maybe this disc problem won't get any worse...who knows.../ when you treat your body a little better, like you have with the weight loss, sometimes it yields remarkable results in other ways ......
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Old September 22, 2013, 08:21 PM   #4
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Dream,

Too bad we don't live and shoot closer to each other. I've been having problems with my neck and my "off" shoulder. I finally took the MC off my Browning Trap Spe. and replaced it with a skeet/field stock. Now I don't have to twist my neck all up, and my POI has dropped down to about 60/40. As compared to 110/-10 with the MC stock. Last week I shot a 97 from the 16 yard line & finished 3rd (first time out with the new stock).

Don't cut your skeet stock, but look for a good used replacement stock (eBay) and have it cut. I believe your 30" barrel will be fine for trap.

I shoot the same load for everthing, 1oz. of #8 over a MEC #27 (17.0grs.) of 700X. I had a friend that put a 20 ga. tube in his BT-99, and it really didn't affect his scores at all.

Just keep your head down and keep your swing going
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Last edited by Bake; September 22, 2013 at 08:43 PM.
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Old September 23, 2013, 02:25 AM   #5
Dreaming100Straight
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Thanks Jim. I think my XS Skeet shoots 60/40 for me as is but I have to check that it is still the same after having lost the weight.

Bake, Interesting that you also get a 60/40 with a skeet stock on your browning, but you say yours is a field stock by which I take it your comb is angled, while mine is parallel. I believe the advantage of a field stock is you can slide up or down on a stock to adjust your POI and the disadvantage is if you slide up or down you will change your POI.

Many here and at the range have told me the same thing, which is to do the adjustable comb, but hold of on the Graco. Instead to reduce felt recoil try lighter loads. I can't see why I shouldn't do just that for at least a few more months.

Weatherby, Who listens to a Weatherby? It did feel sweet but it took so long.

I think you are right about discs, Jim. A guy I shot with back in MO used to be a big time trap shooter and pretty much gave it up because of low back discs. I doubt the problem was so much the recoil but the weight of trap guns, since he had one of the auto loading UGB's with a Gracoil.

If I understand Bake, the problem you experience is in your left shoulder although you shoot from your right shoulder as do I. When I have a bad time after shooting, I get shooting pains on the left side of my neck if I look up, although I am also a rightie.
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Old September 23, 2013, 02:29 AM   #6
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Oh, Dam! I almost forgot, "The pattern broad/plate is your freind, use it".

When you shoot skeet, at station #4 with the same lead, which house gives you the most trouble? Or when you pattern your gun, does the pattern show you are about 50% left/50% right?
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Old September 23, 2013, 02:36 AM   #7
Dreaming100Straight
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Thanks Jim. I think my XS Skeet shoots 60/40 for me as is but I have to check that it is still the same after having lost the weight.

Bake, Interesting that you also get a 60/40 with a skeet stock on your browning, but you say yours is a field stock by which I take it your comb is angled, while mine is parallel. I believe the advantage of a field stock is you can slide up or down on a stock to adjust your POI and the disadvantage is if you slide up or down you will change your POI.

Many here and at the range have told me the same thing, which is to do the adjustable comb, but hold of on the Graco. Instead to reduce felt recoil try lighter loads. I can't see why I shouldn't do just that for at least a few more months.

Weatherby, Who listens to a Weatherby? It did feel sweet but it took sooo long.

I think you are right about discs, Jim. A guy I shot with back in MO used to be a big time trap shooter and pretty much gave it up because of low back discs. I doubt the problem was so much the recoil but the weight of trap guns, since he had one of the auto loading UGB's with a Gracoil.

If I understand Bake, the problem you experience is in your left shoulder although you shoot from your right shoulder as do I. When I have a bad time after shooting, I get shooting pains on the left side of my neck if I look up, although I am also a rightie.
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Old September 23, 2013, 03:14 AM   #8
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Dream,

You're right, just opened the safe, and the new stock is angled (Field,not skeet).

When I get ready to shoot, I check my cheek weild by lining up the front and middle breads for the figure "8".
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Old September 23, 2013, 03:27 AM   #9
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If your neck hurts after shooting, you might be twisting & bending your neck too much, or too far. Try moving your right foot back about inch.

During the winter, my left knee, left hip, and left shoulder really give me fits. Time for "Grunt Candy" (800 mg. of Ibuprofen), and I'm good to go.
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Old September 23, 2013, 11:50 AM   #10
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Go with the opinions of your buddies that are local.....they're the ones that see you shoot every week / really understand the fit issues for you ...and can see your fundamentals of (stance, mount, follow thru, etc ).....

that kind of input is more valuable than anything we can do over the internet...
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Old September 23, 2013, 12:28 PM   #11
Dreaming100Straight
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BigJimP, The guys I shoot trap with pretty much say the same thing, but they just buy what they want within reason and there advice is to buy a dedicated trap gun. I don't see how that helps with the neck as long as balance is maintained. They don't like the idea of putting the the Gracoil and to shoot light loads. There are a couple of characters down here that I may ask to check me out, even though they are primarily skeeters.
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Old September 23, 2013, 12:33 PM   #12
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Bake, Be careful with that Ibuprofen or it will mess your insides up. Your doctor should explain it better and its proper use. The twisting could well be the problem and like BigJim said I should ask the guys at the range to look at it.

Until I recently changed my mount, I really had to contort my neck to get behind and down on the bead. Now it is waaaay better, but I may not realize how much I still twist or cant. If that is what is going on, an adjustable comb should do the trick.
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Old September 23, 2013, 01:00 PM   #13
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I still think you should have a dedicated Trap gun / an O/U is my choice - and I like the Citori XT as long as its not too heavy for you.

and I think you should have a good all around gun ( like the Citori XS Skeet with an adj comb ) ...for Skeet, Sporting Clays and any live upland birds if you want to hunt.

-----------------
I shot my 32" Citori XT at skeet recently, and mine has a GraCoil on it as well.....and it was ok, I averaged about a 21 or 22 with it.....but it took a lot of concentration to float the bird a little bit ( and I have it set for $60%/40% )....but the birds I missed - I was high on. The extra length and weight was a little clumsy too on stations 2 and 6 ...on pairs.

It just isn't the best "tool" for the job ...for general shotgunning...if you can afford to have 2 guns...its way better.
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Old September 23, 2013, 06:10 PM   #14
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I agree Jim. My wife has to understand what a disgrace it is to only have two shotguns, my XS Skeet and the Remington 870 Express. I should hit Zippy over the head and grab his P gun. For the time being, I think I will just do the Adjustable Comb on the XS, which at 7 lbs. 15 oz. is almost as heavy as the XT at 8 lbs. 6 oz.. That is with 30" barrels for both, but if I got an XT I would probably do the 32" for 8 lbs. 8 oz.

There is a guy I shoot with frequently with an XT he bought used and I think he may want something else as he doesn't like the way the stock was cut to add a Bumpmaster. I may wait for him to approach me about buying it, but continue shooting trap with the XS for now. I am finally getting to appreciate it.

As far as affording things, it's all a matter of priorities. I ain't a Rockefeller but I can still afford a god hamburger once in a while.

As for averages, this last week after screwing around on the P board I opened with a 20, Then I swapped the full choke out for a mod and did a 21. Then a 22. Then I fell apart but if you saw what this idiot did on the line you would understand why my concentration was utterly destroyed.

Last edited by Dreaming100Straight; September 23, 2013 at 06:24 PM.
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Old September 23, 2013, 06:23 PM   #15
BigJimP
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If it makes you feel any better, my wife doesn't understand either...she thinks its stupid....

but one good XT Trap gun is pretty easy to justify .....since you already have a good solid XS skeet....( you don't need to go nuts ...and end up with 15 or 20 shotguns like I have...)...

I could get by with 3 shotguns if I had to....( don't tell my wife )...shhh...

a. Citori XT Trap 12ga, 32" ....( for Trap singles, doubles or Continental..)

b. Citori XS Skeet, 12ga, 30" with adj comb ( and load 1oz, 7/8 oz or 3/4
oz shells...so I could do anything a 12ga, 20ga or 28ga could do
balistically) --for Skeet, Sporting clays, 5 stand and upland birds.

c. Benelli Super Sport 12ga.....rainy day, bad weather gun / travel gun
- with one gun I can go and do whatever I want to when
traveling by air / or shoot it on days when shoulder and elbows
hurt and I just can't swing an 8.5 lb gun ....and this 7 lb gun
fits the bill....

and while I like having XS Skeet models in 20ga, 28ga and .410 .....and a few other semi-autos, a few Browning BPS guns, some of the old Citori lightning models, even an old Browning BT-100....( I don't shoot them too much )....and most of them will get turned over to one of the kids in a few years....
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Old September 23, 2013, 06:34 PM   #16
Dreaming100Straight
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I remember you dawg. You will recall I was very tempted to get a Benelli Super Sport when I went with the XS. Its a real nice gun and my regular shooting partner has a scaled down version of it that I shoot now and then and may end up buying. He doesn't need the money, though, and I don't need the gun at the moment. If my neck was to get bad, I guess I should go with a gas gun.

An other possibility is to sell the XS and get a (Browning folk forgive my blasphemy) Caesar Guerini Summit Impact with 32" barrels. My regular shooting partner has had one for a couple of months and it is kind of nice. Of course, not counting the 870 which is now just a security gun, I would be one gun pauper but I could just about swing that deal with no money other than something for sales tax.

I am tempted and this is the time, since my wife is getting to remodel the kitchen.
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Old September 24, 2013, 08:00 PM   #17
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At one time, (1970's) Browning trap & skeet O/U's had the same high comp stock. This works if shooting with the gun mounted. Comb height can be adjusted using a Morgan Adjustable Recoil Pad Assembly, Curved. This acts as a rear sight as it locks into your shoulder the same each time.
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Old September 24, 2013, 10:06 PM   #18
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This might be really dumb, as I don't shoot trap or skeet or even have any more than a vague idea of the guns you're talking about (save the gas guns) and it may even be blasphemy.... But I do shoot high power bolts and some have overly large optics... So wouldn't a slip-on cheek pad help? Maybe one of those nice leather lace-up ones? I mean... Thats basically a cheap way of putting an adjustable comb on your gun without cutting or changing anything...
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Old September 25, 2013, 01:13 AM   #19
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Semi,

No problem. As you know, if you're shooting too far to the left, you adjust your rear sight (your eye) to the right. If you're are shooting high, you adjust your rear sight (your eye again) down.

The Brownies, we were talking about come from Browning with a straight stock ( no cast on or off), and the drop is fixed.

Now this is where it can get tricky. Depending on your ckeek bone (neck, chest, and shoulder), if you raise your rear sight ( your eye), your group/pattern will move up and may/will move to the right. If you lower your rear sight (your eye) the group/pattern will move lower and will/maybe move to the left.

This is where the Adjustable Comb (AC) comes in to play. You can change the "Cast" (windage) of the stock without changing the "Drop" (Elevation).

Most OEM have models with AC stocks, usually run about $200.00 to $400.00 above their basic model. Aftermarket stocks from the OEM will run about $500.00 to $800.00. You can ship the stock out to some guy with a bandsaw, and hope for the "best" for $300.00 to $500.00 plus parts.

A lace-on will raise the eye, and the group/pattern.
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Old September 25, 2013, 01:39 AM   #20
Dreaming100Straight
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Bake has it covered pretty well, but I think he may be a little high on the cost of cutting a stock and installing adjustable comb hardware. Quotes run from about $200 to $325.

I don't believe a morgan adjustable pad directly affects the height of point of impact compared to the point of aim (how high or flat a gun shoots). What affects POI is a change in the relative height of the barrel's bore compared to the shooter's eye. By lowering a Morgan you raise the line of the bore the same amount as you raise one's eye.

Moleskin in effect does about the same as a lace on, but the lace on can be removed when one wants to shoot a flat gun and laced back on when you want a high poi as in trap. Bake is right on about adjusting for left to right, what he calls windage. The fancy term is cast off and cast on for moving your POI right or left.

Last edited by Dreaming100Straight; September 25, 2013 at 01:44 AM.
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Old September 25, 2013, 10:50 AM   #21
semi_problomatic
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Thanks for the explainations. I just meant something like this: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts...-prod1870.aspx

Might be cheaper than buying a new gun (hate to give a reason not to do that though...) and he wouldn't have to cut up his stock.

I've seen a guy put an adjustable comb on his f-class rifle, using a bandsaw and some metal pins. I just couldn't imagine doing that to some of those pretty stocks your guns have.
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Old September 25, 2013, 11:55 AM   #22
Dreaming100Straight
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And your suggestion is a good one and some use a lace up as a permanent solution. The work on mine is not going to be done by some hack.
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Old September 25, 2013, 12:31 PM   #23
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On a shotgun like the Browning Citori XS Skeet that is retailing in the $3,000 price range these days....having the adjustable comb cut into the gun by a reputable company is smart.

Its not that difficult to do ....but if it was done wrong, I'd expect the gun to be restocked ( stock and forend matching ) as compensation....so there are only a few places I would trust to do it .....Jack West and Briley are two that come to mind for me.
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Old September 25, 2013, 12:46 PM   #24
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Semi,

I just knew, after reading the first part of your post, that you were a "F" class shooter, and your "Home Away From Home" is at 1000yards.


Dream,

The reason I used "Windage & Elevation" instead of "Drop & Cast", was when I first started getting interested in shotguns the terms left me confused. The term "Drop" wasn't too bad, but the term "Cast Off" (moving the stock more to the right) and the term "Cast On" (moving the stock more to the left), was just too much for me at first. Still is little.
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Old September 25, 2013, 01:18 PM   #25
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Jim,

Didn't know that Jack West would cut wood. I did know that his 870, and his 1100/1187 stocks are about the best on the market.
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