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Old September 23, 2013, 10:34 PM   #26
RBid
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Double strike is a critical feature. Look at the number of people dying every year because their service Glocks and 1911s hit a bad primer and stopped! It's a wonder we have any police, SEALs, or Delta operators left! They're dropping like flies!

You know what they say: "Go Beretta, or go home!"
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Old September 24, 2013, 09:22 AM   #27
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But, but aren't those guys(hi speed low drag types) all shooting Sigs and HK's with hammers and 2nd strike? It should be striker guys dropping like flies with that reasoning. Oh, you're pulling my leg again, aren't you. I'm just too easy.
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Old September 24, 2013, 10:51 AM   #28
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Dropping like flies kind of goes with the territory. Not likely due to bad primers or poorly maintained weaponry.
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Old September 24, 2013, 11:24 AM   #29
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You guys, Rbid's tongue was planted firmly in his cheek when he said that.

Second strike isn't necessary if you have proper training. If you have proper training then there are next to zero instances in which you would ever use such a feature.
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Old September 24, 2013, 11:35 AM   #30
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Second strike isn't necessary if you have proper training.
One has nothing to do with the other. Having a feature on a firearm that makes no operational difference in any regard other than existing is better to have and never need than the opposite. And to the point; training is rarely if ever as fast and violent as an actual shooting incident. A recent case in point; had George Zimmerman heard a "click", do you suppose he would have pulled the trigger again? I think so.
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Old September 24, 2013, 11:39 AM   #31
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Double strike is a critical feature. Look at the number of people dying every year because their service Glocks and 1911s hit a bad primer and stopped! It's a wonder we have any police, SEALs, or Delta operators left! They're dropping like flies!
No, the double strike is not critical ESPECIALLY concerning SEALs, DELTA, etc...
I know of no military unit that trains to squeeze the trigger a second time as part of a stoppage drill.

I doubt the police are trained to squeeze a second time either.

If they are truly "dropping like flies" I can assure you, it's not because they lacked a second strike capability.
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Old September 24, 2013, 07:05 PM   #32
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RBid RBid

Allow me to explain the previous line of text. That is a visual representation of me, beside myself that anyone could have possibly taken my earlier post seriously.
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Old September 24, 2013, 07:42 PM   #33
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Second strike is strictly an amateur move.

The military way, and the most practical way to deal with a failure to fire is to eject the round and try again with another round(a.k.a clear the stoppage and keep firing), takes about 1 second when done properly, whereas double strike could turn into triple strike, into quadruple strike, and so on, which is the kind of thing you might see at the gun range, but never in a gun fight, unless you're really low on ammo.

Quote:
Allow me to explain the previous line of text. That is a visual representation of me, beside myself that anyone could have possibly taken my earlier post seriously.
Well at least you're not behind yourself.
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Old September 24, 2013, 09:06 PM   #34
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Thank you gents. You helped me make up my mind. Px4 constant action it is
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Old September 25, 2013, 07:44 AM   #35
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The odds of a 2nd strike actually working when the 1st didn't are well under 50%. With those odds I'm not wasting time trying. Not a concern at all for me.
The OP's question completely depends on the gun. Some guns are so reliable that 2nd strike capability is not a factor. With other guns, I would definitely want this.

Example: I have carried an AMT 45 Backup and Ruger LC9. My AMT 45 Backup was fairly reliable (didn't come that way, I had to make it that way) - I actually shot this gun quite a bit. The AMT 45 Backup had double strike capability. On the odd occasion that I'd pull the trigger and hear a "click" (usually as the gun became dirty from shooting), I'd pull the trigger again, and it would fire.

Now, with my LC9, I have put many rounds through this gun as well, and it simply eats EVERYTHING, without a hiccup. At first I worried about it not having double strike capability. Now, I've stopped worrying about this completely. FWIW, I feed my LC9 a regular diet of Wolf steel-cased ball ammo. My motto is "If it can't eat Wolf it can't be carried". Any gun that can digest lots of dirty steel cased ammo, without breaking extractors and jamming up is a good carry gun.
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Old September 25, 2013, 10:59 AM   #36
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Everyone's experiences are a little different, that's to be expected. In over 40 years of shooting handguns and reloading I have run across a few duds. I have never had one (as far as I can recall) that fired the second time it was hit, in centerfire ammo!

Rimfire, is a completely different matter.

To me, the capability of a second strike on the primer is irrelevant. Cooper once called the DA auto pistols "an ingenious solution to a problem that doesn't exist", and while I don't agree with everything he said, in this case, I do.

I own a few DA autos, but not because they are DA autos. Its a nice feature to have, I suppose, but not anything important to me. If it is something important to you, enjoy!
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Old September 25, 2013, 11:31 AM   #37
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For me, 2nd strike capabilities are not even a thought on the radar. If it doesn't go bang the first time I'm racking the slide.

As a side note- I have had one centerfire round not fire on the first strike and did fire on the second. It was with 125 gr Remington hp ammo in 357 magnum fired out of a Ruger SP101.
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Old September 25, 2013, 03:36 PM   #38
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There are few attributes to this gun such as lack of safety
Lack of safety is an attribute?

My revolver will light Russian primers only about 90% of the time, and a second strike never sets them off, so I find second-strike capability of little expected value.
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Old September 25, 2013, 04:47 PM   #39
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Second strike capability is just a byproduct of a double action trigger pull in a semi-auto package. The greatest utility I have found for it is dry fire practice for the DA first shot. Racking the slide constantly for shot to shot is a regular pain in the kotokus.
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Old September 25, 2013, 04:58 PM   #40
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How important to me is "second strike capability"?

Somewhere between the importance of the price of rubber dog doo in Hong Kong and a shortage of kegogi in Inchon ....... roughly.

taprackbang.
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Old September 26, 2013, 08:31 AM   #41
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Over the years I've had about 30 1st strike failures but can only think of one instance where a 2nd strike did not go boom. That was a striker fired DA/SA 45ACP SW99.

The 30 1st strike failures were due to ammo (bad primer/powder) or gun (light strike).

I prefer 2nd strike capability.

I like anything that will give me an extra chance at survival. If I am out in the open (no cover) and have to slap the bottom of the grip, rack the slide, re-acquire the target and make an accurate shot (about 2 seconds for me) I am likely to catch lead from the perp who already has me in his sights.

2nd strike works for me.

But nowadays I carry a revolver as my first-strike handgun, so its not an issue.

Problem solved.
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Old September 26, 2013, 10:16 PM   #42
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The 30 1st strike failures were due to ammo (bad primer/powder) or gun (light strike).
Stop using crappy ammo ..... or crappy/poorly maintained guns. Problem solved.


Quote:
I like anything that will give me an extra chance at survival.
You'll like good ammo, then.
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Old September 27, 2013, 10:56 AM   #43
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I don't think its a positive nor do I think its a negative.

Rather than froth about " religious pistol handling doctrine" and whats right or wrong, simply adapt.

It takes all of what fraction of a second does it take to pull the trigger again? 1/4?

So, if you have it, fail to fire try it. Then into the rest of the drill as appropriate. .

I don't do the tap as I ensure my magazines are seated when I put the defense loads in the gun after shooting and its been tested with charging the gun (I load up full then give up 1 round for less stress on the bullet column) In that case I am ahead of the tap part as I am into the rack the slide.

In cases of where you have changed a magazine in the heat of the moment then yes tap is important.

Like all doctrine, it can be and should be applied to the situation, not blindly followed and failure to do so gets you stoned.
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Old September 27, 2013, 11:42 AM   #44
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I've thought about this more... I have had numerous rounds work the second time; in rifles, pistols and revolvers.... Some that have not. Most were just put back into the mag or the cylinder. I have had it work on a double strike capable pistol too.....

I think despite what all the tactical gurus say.... I think most would pull the trigger again in a stressful situation.
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Old September 27, 2013, 01:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by RC20 View Post
I don't think its a positive nor do I think its a negative.

Rather than froth about " religious pistol handling doctrine" and whats right or wrong, simply adapt.

It takes all of what fraction of a second does it take to pull the trigger again? 1/4?

So, if you have it, fail to fire try it. Then into the rest of the drill as appropriate. .

I don't do the tap as I ensure my magazines are seated when I put the defense loads in the gun after shooting and its been tested with charging the gun (I load up full then give up 1 round for less stress on the bullet column) In that case I am ahead of the tap part as I am into the rack the slide.

In cases of where you have changed a magazine in the heat of the moment then yes tap is important.

Like all doctrine, it can be and should be applied to the situation, not blindly followed and failure to do so gets you stoned.
So what happens if you have inadvertently hit the magazine release? Your support hand should keep the magazine in the gun, but it will cause it to fall just enough to cause a FTF. I make sure to seat my mags upon inserting them as well, but you still should do the *tap*.
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Old September 27, 2013, 03:43 PM   #46
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I don't think its a positive nor do I think its a negative.

Rather than froth about " religious pistol handling doctrine" and whats right or wrong, simply adapt.

It takes all of what fraction of a second does it take to pull the trigger again? 1/4?

So, if you have it, fail to fire try it. Then into the rest of the drill as appropriate. .

I don't do the tap as I ensure my magazines are seated when I put the defense loads in the gun after shooting and its been tested with charging the gun (I load up full then give up 1 round for less stress on the bullet column) In that case I am ahead of the tap part as I am into the rack the slide.

In cases of where you have changed a magazine in the heat of the moment then yes tap is important.

Like all doctrine, it can be and should be applied to the situation, not blindly followed and failure to do so gets you stoned.
Good points. As some have already mentioned, in an actual gunfight and the pistol goes click instead of boom, pulling the trigger again is probably an automatic reflex.

There's also an event that TRB doesn't address and that's the pistol going click and you automatically execute a TRB only to find that the round was a squib. Guess what's gonna happen with that next round being fired?

The reality is that there are no absolutes and like RC20 said, adapt to the particular system you're using.
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Old September 27, 2013, 04:14 PM   #47
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There's also an event that TRB doesn't address and that's the pistol going click and you automatically execute a TRB only to find that the round was a squib. Guess what's gonna happen with that next round being fired?
The only time I would be preforming a TRB for real would be if my life, or a member of my family's life were in danger. So even if there was a squib, I wouldn't be any worse off. If my gun exploded maybe at least some of the fragments would go in the right direction.
When I get a unintentional "click" at the range (not to be confused with a snap-cap induced TRB drill) I stop and check to see what's happened. I've only ever had a few, but they've all appeared to have light strikes (maybe a high seated primer?) and they've all gone off when I cycle them through again.

I will say that I definitely agree that if your gun goes click when you're punching paper TRB would be a poor choice.
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Old September 27, 2013, 10:18 PM   #48
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I've had three dud factory centerfire handgun rounds over the years. A third tier brand .357 magnum round, and two .40 S&W rounds from a lot of 500 by a big name brand, but purchased online. I'm guessing the lot was rejected by some law en forcement agency due to said malfunctions.

Anyway, the revolver round obviously had second strike capability, the next chamber.

Neither of the .40 rounds detonated on repeated tries, so they were duds, pure and simple.

So, in my experience, second strike ability is just about meaningless, maybe even dangerous, as it may have you wasting time trying that next double-action pull instead of getting on with the ejection of the bad round and chambering of the next.

That said, I have never given that aspect of a firearm even a second's thought. I have about equal SA/DA types, SA only, and DA only. The misfires have been so rare over the years, three out of at least a hundred thousand, that it's just not something I think about much.

During my reloading days, I probably only reloaded 5000 rounds of handgun ammo, and had 5 duds out of those due to missing putting powder in one row of five cases.

So the major ammo makers are batting much higher an average than me.

My duds were experienced at the range. In all honesty, I don't know how I'd react if I had a dud when I really needed a round to work. Hopefully I won't waste time on the dud round, and will immediately start trying to get the next one chambered, regardless of whether I have second strike capabilty or not.
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Old September 28, 2013, 08:28 PM   #49
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Ok...

I've watched lots of movies, so this is how it gonna go down...

You hear the gun click.
Turn it sideways quickly and look at it.
Throw the pistol down..

This is where you have two choices:
A) You retrieve a weapon from the pile of bad guys you've made...
B) You take another weapon from inside your coat, and keep option (A) open for the the more highly skilled bad guy that's left standing.

Keep in mind that the battle with the final foe will be extended for a long time period... You will expend huge amounts of energy...
I suggest a high protein breakfast that day.
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Old September 28, 2013, 09:30 PM   #50
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rickyrick, what part of the Mesquite Jungle Desert are you in? In my younger days I have lived in San Angelo, Sweetwater and Abilene. Back in the early 80s, I drove an 18 wheeler delivering cement to the oilfield service companies so I've pretty well covered W. Texas. One extreme to another since I grew up in Houston. Now I live in the paradise of Brown Co.

As far as people arguing against second strike, how much time do you think you're gonna loose in doing something that's likely to occur naturally, anyway. Why not pull the trigger a second time and if no joy, then go right to TRB? Nothing against Col. Cooper, but having an absolute opinion on a problem born out of the single action's lack of ability to have a secondary course of action makes about as much since as believing that you must own a 1911 if you want a serious combat pistol. So I'll quote RC20 again because it really boils down to the pistol you carry. No second strike capability? Add the TRB drill to your training regimen. But since TRB won't account for a squib load, maybe we really need a new drill for all action types where you go to slide lock, remove the mag and take a quick peek down the bore. There is no absolute best method and I just don't see how a second pull of the trigger cost you anything. It like anything else can be trained for. Pull the trigger a second time and no boom? You've lost less than a second and a TRB can immediately follow.

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Like all doctrine, it can be and should be applied to the situation, not blindly followed and failure to do so gets you stoned.
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