The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 2, 2013, 10:28 PM   #1
bullet hole bronc
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 1
Tactical sxs?

Just recently bought a cz over under mallard 12 and once two sxs but my interested keep coming back to the deul barrels. I saw the stoeger coach with like a tactical setup and it interested me. Anyone wanna share the pros and cons or had a double for a home defense gun?
bullet hole bronc is offline  
Old December 3, 2013, 12:10 AM   #2
semi_problomatic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2009
Location: Ft. Polk
Posts: 868
Cons:
only two shots
Either leave it loaded or have to break it open and load it. So slower than racking a pump or semi
Different sight pictures for either barrel while they use the same sight post
SxS are not cheap to make right, and if they are cheap you can almost gaurontee they arn't made right
The safety automatically engages when you reload. Could be an issue in high stress, especially if you leave then gun unloaded.
Not the cheapest gun, so no pro there either. Cheap for a sxs though.

Pros:
Already has rails for flashlight, lasers, bayonet and optics....
None really compared to a semi or pump unless you leave it loaded...
__________________
Freedom's just a word. If I'm gonna die for a word, my word is jello...
semi_problomatic is offline  
Old December 3, 2013, 12:24 AM   #3
bustersmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 8, 2006
Posts: 182
Another issue with 2 barrels is they weigh twice as much as one barrel. In spite of the extra weight, mine kicks like a mule compared to my Mossy. The automatic safety is easy to fix.
bustersmaster is offline  
Old December 3, 2013, 06:27 AM   #4
Virginian-in-LA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2012
Location: Evangeline, LA
Posts: 694
The only factory tactical option is the Stoeger, but they have had a lot of issues with the Uplander Supreme with the single triggers and ejectors like that tactical model has. The standard Uplander with extractors and double triggers has been extremely popular in cowboy shooting, and seems to hold up well. The hammerless coach gun is the same gun with the short barrels. The moral of the story to me is that if you want to go cheap, keep it simple. If I wanted an SxS for HD or tactical, that is where I would start. With double triggers, you get a second lock should something go amiss with the first. Are you a bad shot who needs more rounds, or do you prefer at least one for sure? A lot of those cowboy shooters can get off 4 to 6 rounds with a SxS so fast it's unbelievable.
I would certainly feel adequately armed for HD with a SxS. If I thought I would ever I need more than two shots for HD I think I would move.
__________________
What could have happened... did.

I do not trust Remington's dating service accuracy. If they were Match.com, you could end up with Nancy Pelosi.
Virginian-in-LA is offline  
Old December 3, 2013, 11:52 AM   #5
semi_problomatic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2009
Location: Ft. Polk
Posts: 868
I must've missed the part of the post where he had magic bullets that never missed and was a seriously competitive cowboy action shooter. I was going under the assumption that he wasn't trained by military or leo to use shotguns and he wasn't very familiar with them.

If you do have rounds that never miss, what are they? I'd like to buy some. And if you can accurately shoot your sxs 6 times faster than I can unload my $170 pump shotgun with a 5+1 capacity (shoot, just to make it fair I'll start with an empty chamber and the safety on), I'd like to see that too.

I'm sure no one would disagree, any time your life or your family's life is in danger it's better to have 3 rounds left in the tube rather than be needing just 1 more shot.

So, if you're not highly competitive in CAS and you don't want to leave a loaded shotgun or fumble around with 2 shots at a time, and you are looking for a home defense shotgun and not just something that's tacticool I'll still say the stoeger sxs has no advantages over even a HD pump $300 less.

Virginian, I think you missed the pros and cons part. What pros does the double defense have? Lets compare it to other HD guns and stay some where near the topic.
__________________
Freedom's just a word. If I'm gonna die for a word, my word is jello...

Last edited by semi_problomatic; December 3, 2013 at 12:03 PM.
semi_problomatic is offline  
Old December 3, 2013, 11:56 AM   #6
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
Quote:
Another issue with 2 barrels is they weigh twice as much as one barrel. In spite of the extra weight, mine kicks like a mule compared to my Mossy. The automatic safety is easy to fix.
Not necessarily true as the magazine, especially loaded, weighs more than the second barrel.

Kicking like a mule can be for several reasons, FIT being the biggest
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old December 3, 2013, 07:19 PM   #7
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,265
I have an old a mossberg pump gun as well as an old Ithaca 37.
I have four sxs. The pump guns weigh more than three of them. And this unloaded.
But....since you are not carrying any of them around like you were hunting grouse, the weight does not matter a whole lot.
Pete
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old December 3, 2013, 08:23 PM   #8
Virginian-in-LA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2012
Location: Evangeline, LA
Posts: 694
The man asked about a specific SxS, and I tried to provide some helpful info. If he wanted to know about pumps, good grief, it's every other thread. Lighten up.
__________________
What could have happened... did.

I do not trust Remington's dating service accuracy. If they were Match.com, you could end up with Nancy Pelosi.
Virginian-in-LA is offline  
Old December 4, 2013, 08:21 PM   #9
rs97
Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2009
Posts: 86
Quote:
Different sight pictures for either barrel while they use the same sight post
I have no idea what this means. My guess is that you never fired a SxS and have a preconceived notion of what it is like.

Quote:
The safety automatically engages when you reload. Could be an issue in high stress, especially if you leave then gun unloaded.
Not all SxS have automatic safety. And I just don’t see how taking safety off is more difficult than operating the pump action.

Quote:
And if you can accurately shoot your sxs 6 times faster than I can unload my $170 pump shotgun with a 5+1 capacity (shoot, just to make it fair I'll start with an empty chamber and the safety on), I'd like to see that too.
And 8+1 auto shotgun is even faster. So?

Quote:
What pros does the double defense have?
A few come to mind.
1. Barrel length being the same, the double will be shorter overall.
2. You can not short-pump a double.
3. In case one of your arms is out of commission, with a double you do have two shots. With the pump only one. And if you start with “an empty chamber” – zero.

But as Virginian-in-LA pointed out, this discussion is about a specific gun, and it is not a pump.
rs97 is offline  
Old December 5, 2013, 07:50 AM   #10
sixteenacrewood
Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2013
Posts: 35
rs97, good answers
(finaly, something I can comment on instead of my endless dumb questions)

I love sxs shotguns in any ga. or configuration, and I don't care for pumps or autos, probably just personal choice and as much based on style and looks as much as the performance I can get out of them in the field.

I have 2 stoegers, a 12 ga uplander with screw in chokes and a 20 ga coach gun.

I love reading the debates as to action and ga/cal of a given firearm for a given use.

Opening day dove season this year I used the 20 ga coach gun and the action was fast and furious, birds everywhere in large numbers, a great day!

My friends had expensive autos (benelli I think, they all make more money than me).
With the better quality guns and the extra shell capacity and the time and money to shoot skeet and trap regularly, they should have out performed me 2-1.
With my cheap little sxs I was able to do as good as most and better than a few of them.
I limited out in less than 2 hours and less than 2 boxes of shells.(yes I'm bragging)
None of them did any better than I did.

Yes I know dove hunting is not a self defence situation, but it is a good test of fast targeting and fast reloading and fast safety operation.

the points I am making is:

1) The Best firearm for self defence or any other job is the one you handle, operate, and shoot the best.

2) If you do your part, without flaw, the first shot is the only one that counts.(30 round mags don't help once you get hit in the chest)

3) The gun you will practice/shoot the most is the one you like/enjoy the most, and it will be the one you will become most efficient with and operating it will become second nature.

4) I do not remember ever operating the automatic safety on my shotgun, its second nature and not a factor.

5) I can outperform some of my friends with a single shot shotgun

6) the best home defence setup is a fence, gate, 2 dogs, and a firearm that you are competent with.

My advice is to get what you like the best and what is affordable at the moment so you can afford to buy shells and go have fun.

I think the sxs double is the quickest handleing, smoothest to swing, fastest to load, and it's safety is never in question. and I never leave a gun loaded anywhere.

Autos and pumps feel like 5 foot long heavy broom handles to me
They feel clumsy to load
pumps feel odd and noisy to operate
autos feel inherently unsafe, I never seem to know if they are loaded or not, or where to stuff the shells in.

But, in truth, I plan to get a pump and an auto, probable something vintage, when cash flow permits. ( i like guns)

But when my dogs sound a warning late in the night, there is no doubt that I will reach for the Stoeger sxs 12 ga, it's what I am best with.

oh, and never underestimate an old man with a rusty gun
sixteenacrewood is offline  
Old December 5, 2013, 09:00 AM   #11
semi_problomatic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2009
Location: Ft. Polk
Posts: 868
Mkay rs97..... Let me point some things out for you, that you obviously missed.

Just recently bought a cz over under mallard 12 and once two sxs but my interested keep coming back to the deul barrels. I saw the stoeger coach with like a tactical setup and it interested me. Anyone wanna share the pros and cons or had a double for a home defense gun?

Now I listed the pros and cons for THAT gun compared to other guns built for HD. You can compare every sxs to other HD guns if you want to simply justify whatever vague point you have, or if you just feel the need to defend all sxs's. I don't really care.

Sure, 8 round capacity is faster. Fantastic. You know of any 8 round capacity sxs's? No? So what's your point again? Oh thats right....nothing.

Sure, if you leave your double loaded, and some lose an arm in some struggle...you have two shots. If you had a semi auto, you have whatever capacity your mag holds. Again, do you have a point? If you leave your sxs unloaded, and you lose your arm...how many shots do you have then?

And as far as two different sight pictures... Well, let me explain the nature of a sxs.... You have TWO barrels side by side of each other. Between them is ONE sight post. This means there is a barrel to the left and right of that sight post. Tracking so far? Glad we figured that one out. Does it matter in HD distances? Maybe not. But it is a con vs other similiarly purposed guns.

2) If you do your part, without flaw, the first shot is the only one that counts.(30 round mags don't help once you get hit in the chest)

Sure, true enough. The only problem is there was only I perfect person I've ever heard about, and he died over 2,000 years ago... Everyone else is subject to mistakes. Your best bet in high stress is to mitigate chances of messing up.

5) I can outperform some of my friends with a single shot shotgun


Outperform them doing what?

6) the best home defence setup is a fence, gate, 2 dogs, and a firearm that you are competent with.

And an alarm, bars and locks on your doors and windows, lots of lights... But sure.

I think the sxs double is the quickest handleing, smoothest to swing, fastest to load, and it's safety is never in question. and I never leave a gun loaded anywhere.

You can think what you want, but breaking open a shotgun to load two at a time is not faster than racking a pump or charging handle. To claim so is tom foolery. If it's what you're familiar with, fine.

You can buy what you want. But why make a post asking about a gun for HD then simply ignore whats said and defend the gun? Why ask at all?
__________________
Freedom's just a word. If I'm gonna die for a word, my word is jello...
semi_problomatic is offline  
Old December 5, 2013, 09:23 AM   #12
Nickel Plated
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2010
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
Posts: 529
Quote:
In case one of your arms is out of commission, with a double you do have two shots. With the pump only one. And if you start with “an empty chamber” – zero.
Well that depends on the pump. I can fire and cycle my SXP with one hand and only one hand pretty well. Reloading is another matter. But whatever is in the magazine at the time is good to go.
Nickel Plated is offline  
Old December 5, 2013, 09:41 AM   #13
sixteenacrewood
Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2013
Posts: 35
Great points Semi

5)Outperform them doing what?
anything with a firearm, even if they have an AR, I know more than a few dumbasses with guns

the rest of your points are well taken, and you are probably right.

My opinion
I love double guns

"You can think what you want, but breaking open a shotgun to load two at a time is not faster than racking a pump or charging handle. To claim so is tom foolery. If it's what you're familiar with, fine."

this only true if you train train train, same with loading a double, you still have to load the others.

I grew up and lived in a sh#t hole of a neighborhood, and other than a combat war zone, I know of very few situations that went past a few well placed rounds, I can't think of any where someone got a chance to reload.

2) If you do your part, without flaw, the first shot is the only one that counts.(30 round mags don't help once you get hit in the chest)

Sure, true enough. The only problem is there was only I perfect person I've ever heard about, and he died over 2,000 years ago... Everyone else is subject to mistakes. Your best bet in high stress is to mitigate chances of messing up.

Several situations over the last many years where the problem was over in a few rounds.

I think a high capacity may make some "spray and pray" and limited capacity may make you keep your cool and pick you target and make rounds count


6) the best home defence setup is a fence, gate, 2 dogs, and a firearm that you are competent with.

Lets not forget helecopter close air support!


I love these discussions, sorry if I got off topic
I still think a double has its benefits, simple to operate, safe simple operation, does its job if you do yours
sixteenacrewood is offline  
Old December 5, 2013, 09:43 AM   #14
sixteenacrewood
Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2013
Posts: 35
Thanks for not busting me on spelling!
sixteenacrewood is offline  
Old December 5, 2013, 10:49 AM   #15
semi_problomatic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2009
Location: Ft. Polk
Posts: 868
I'm probably the last person on earth who should bust anyone out on spelling!!

I don't have anything against a double gun. I really wanted a stoeger coach gun for no other reason than to have one. One day I'm gonna get me an O/U and or sxs.... If nothing more than just to have. But I was trying to honestly answer a question about a HD gun and give the pros and cons purely from an HD perspective. If you're good with sxs's and trust them with your life, go for it. When it comes down to it, two well placed shots from the business end of any gun should handle a threat. But I'd still rather have a few more...just in case. I'd always rather have too much than not enough.

How many bullets a gun holds or how fast it shoots or what kind of sights it has only matters if the shooter can use it. But the shooter is the part that matters. 2 shells or 20 will not change how you act in high stress. The only thing that will is training and the right mentality.

When you store this shotgun, you said you'd leave it unloaded. Do you store shells near it? How many? Do you sleep in clothes with pockets to carry extra rounds?

That's another pro of a semi or pump. Even with chamber empty you have whatever your tube is on the gun. I guess you could mitigate that a bit with one of those side shell carriers or a sling/bandolier combo.
__________________
Freedom's just a word. If I'm gonna die for a word, my word is jello...
semi_problomatic is offline  
Old December 5, 2013, 07:15 PM   #16
340 Weatherby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2012
Posts: 129
If somebody pointed their Coach Gun at me, they'd have my undivided attention. As I have never seen one fail to go bang.
340 Weatherby is offline  
Old December 6, 2013, 04:20 AM   #17
Dreaming100Straight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Posts: 534
Quote:
I just don’t see how taking safety off is more difficult than operating the pump action.
It's not more difficult, but people often forget to take them off. Just check out occasional trap shooters. They frequently miss their first target because the left their safety on. Even worse if the have a field break action gun with a safety that resets every time the action is open and closed. Now think about the stress of an HD situation.

Last edited by Dreaming100Straight; December 6, 2013 at 04:38 AM.
Dreaming100Straight is offline  
Old December 6, 2013, 05:38 AM   #18
JL Wesson
Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2013
Location: Italy
Posts: 40
SxS HD

This is my present HD gun. It is a Baikal coach gun with external hammers (not real hammers: they are actually cocking levers). I like the idea of having it in condition 2 with all springs relaxed and safety off (I fixed the automatic safety). My feeling is in this status it is as safe as it can be with a loaded chamber.
I also feel more armed with two 12 gauge birdshots than with a wondernine (I also have semi-autos, revolvers and carbines).
Over penetration from solid bullets is also a concern you don't have with 12gauge.
I have also to say that in my area we are not so in danger (so far) of night assaults/home invasions from multiple BGs.

As far as the Stoeger Duoble Defense is concerned: I like it. Would buy if I get the chance to find one and have the spare money. I would anyway work on a "tacticalization" of my Baikal as I prefer the manual cocking feature for storing the thing loaded.
__________________
"L'arma più pericolosa sono gli uomini di piccolo calibro"
"Most dangerous gun is a small caliber man"
Wieslav Brudzinski
JL Wesson is offline  
Old December 6, 2013, 07:46 AM   #19
teeroux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Posts: 1,489
Quote:
3. In case one of your arms is out of commission, with a double you do have two shots. With the pump only one. And if you start with “an empty chamber” – zero.
Sarah Conner didn't have a problem with one arming a pump.
Sorry I had to.
teeroux is offline  
Old December 6, 2013, 09:11 AM   #20
MTT TL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2009
Location: Quadling Country
Posts: 1,780
Don't know about "tactical" and "home defense" in the same idea but the SXS is ideal for the modern man of 1881. There have been a few changes since then.
__________________
Proxima est Mors, Malum Nullum adhibit Misericordiam
MTT TL is offline  
Old December 6, 2013, 05:54 PM   #21
semi_problomatic
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2009
Location: Ft. Polk
Posts: 868
In that case, muskets worked for a couple hundred years... Anyone use a tactical musket for HD?


The Rock one armed two pumps at once....
__________________
Freedom's just a word. If I'm gonna die for a word, my word is jello...

Last edited by semi_problomatic; December 6, 2013 at 09:17 PM.
semi_problomatic is offline  
Old December 7, 2013, 04:24 AM   #22
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,265
OK

Remember.....the thing is called "Coach" gun for a reason. When did stagecoaches go out of fashion? When we entered WWI, did we bring Coach guns? No, we brought trench guns.
I like SXSs and own four of them. I hunt with them and they work wonderfully well..


One idea....my only disagreement... is about that two sight pictures with a SXS.
Not.
One sight.....one sight picture. You should not be looking at the sight in any case...look at what you are shooting at.
Look....


Two sight pictures....Nuhuh
__________________
"Only hunting and mountain climbing are sports. The rest are just games." - R.Ruark
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old December 9, 2013, 03:43 AM   #23
Dreaming100Straight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Posts: 534
Loading a Side X Side

I don't care how fast you can load a sxs. If you want to reload one you have to break the action open.

So if you empty one barrel, your choice is to break it open or trust that you can finish the job with that second shot. If the BG sees that you have a SxS, he also knows you only have one shot.

But with a pump or a semi, you not only have a magazine that commonly holds 3 to 7 rounds in addition to the one that may be in the chamber, you can top the magazine off while keeping the weapon ready to fire. Unless you just unloaded the magazine, the BG is unlikely to know that you have kept the gun topped off between shots.

I have to call BS pm a few other claims. It simply isn't true that the first shot is the only one that counts if you do your part without flaw. What if there is more than one BG?

Nor do you only have a single shot with a pump if one arm is decommissioned. It slows you down, but you can hold the gun and rack it with one arm.

How can anyone say in one breath that they did as good as most of their friends, but in the next breath that none did any better than themselves? that you only did as good as most means you did not do as well as some.

Last edited by Dreaming100Straight; December 9, 2013 at 03:55 AM.
Dreaming100Straight is offline  
Old December 9, 2013, 07:22 AM   #24
sixteenacrewood
Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2013
Posts: 35
I love these threads

This is what's called an "academic discussion"

A lot of these discussions blur the line between "home defence" situations and "combat" situations.

Arguments can be supported and examples presented to favor any choice of shotgun or firearm.

Yes, doubles only have 2 shots and have to be broken open to reload.

pumps can be short shucked and autos can jamb. I've seen both on the dove field. and the 3 shot plug may be in.

Yes I have out performed others on the dove field with a cheap double when they had expensive autos and pumps.

it is the person behind the sights that decides performance

etc, etc, etc.

yes the first shot does count the most, even when there are two bad guys

My favorite part of these discussions;
pump trumps double gun
auto trumps the pump
40 cal trumps the shotgun
AR trumps pistols and shotguns
50 cal sniper rifle trumps the AR
well placed claymore mines trump the 50 cal
short range battle field nuke trumps all
sixteenacrewood is offline  
Old December 9, 2013, 08:12 AM   #25
sixteenacrewood
Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2013
Posts: 35
sorry, I completely got off track of the OPs question
sixteenacrewood is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15537 seconds with 9 queries