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Old September 12, 2013, 04:25 PM   #26
Seeker
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I think I misunderstood...
the female deputy was close enough to you to straighten your shirt tail, and had done so before you noticed her?

-
my experience has been that people don't pay very much attention to the folks around them. I sometimes open carry, depending on circumstances, and nobody seems to notice or maybe they don't care. Did have a police officer in Portland tell me I couldn't open carry, but I explained the law to him (and contacted Lars Larsen who spoke with the chief of police about reminding the officers that open carry with is legal in Portland if you have a CHL). - note: IMO open carry should always involve a retention type holster.
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Old September 13, 2013, 08:39 AM   #27
dieselbeef
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in fl incidental exposure isnt a problem....
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Old September 13, 2013, 08:52 AM   #28
Constantine
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Quote:
in fl incidental exposure isnt a problem....
Yeah, this is true.

Can I say a funny story though? I don't know if it's appropriate though..
Okay never mind. What I will say is this though, it's not a "problem" legally. But it can be. It's really a big gray area though. The process it takes to not be a problem is a PITA for both the officer and citizen.

You're made and the first assumption to a citizen is "I'm a good guy! Stop!"

The first assumption to the officer is "Let me check this guy out ASAP!"

There have been several cases where good guys have had knees in their backs and are detained while being checked out. DL, CWP, Serial number..etc.

It's not fun when that happens. It's officer and public safety though.

However the gray area is this, some officers who are more decorated and rough around the edges don't get too excited for this when it's seen and you'll get stopped if you print or exposed they'll ask to see your permit and you'll go on about your day.

A rookie or an officer who isn't as decorated may do the part where I mentioned a knee in the back and all that fun stuff.


So every officer is different. Hence the gray area. You need to just do your part, you don't know what the officer has gone through to be a little jumpy or anything. So being snappy won't help. Be the change you wish to see.
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Old September 13, 2013, 08:53 AM   #29
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In Wyoming we have "Constitutional Carry".
It means that if you can lawfully own a gun you can carry it almost anywhere, any time in any way you like. Schools are an exception, but probably about 99.5% of the places are lawful for carry.
It’s great, but also sad in how it shows how badly we as citizens of most of the USA have let our rights go and largely without any fight.

In Wyoming we had to pass a law to make the LAW the law.
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Old September 30, 2013, 06:52 AM   #30
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SEEKER.
Quote:
I think I misunderstood...
the female deputy was close enough to you to straighten your shirt tail, and had done so before you noticed her?

-
my experience has been that people don't pay very much attention to the folks around them. I sometimes open carry, depending on circumstances, and nobody seems to notice or maybe they don't care. Did have a police officer in Portland tell me I couldn't open carry, but I explained the law to him (and contacted Lars Larsen who spoke with the chief of police about reminding the officers that open carry with is legal in Portland if you have a CHL). - note: IMO open carry should always involve a retention type holster.
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Missed this, Seeker, I had the tailgate up, and was placing my purchases behind the seat, leaned way in.

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Old October 1, 2013, 09:43 PM   #31
BurgerBoy
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Kentucky is a CC and OC state so I don't worry about it one way or another. If it shows - it shows.
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Old October 2, 2013, 08:28 AM   #32
Rifleman1776
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Not a huge concern.
But, still that is why I choose a small .380 pocket pistol and keep it in a pocket. I don't want to sacrifice comfort, especially in hot weather, for concealment.
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Old October 2, 2013, 09:08 AM   #33
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I have two carry methods for my CCW. I carry a Glock 30 in a serpa cqc holster on my right hip most of the time. When I am at work I switch to an uncle mike's iwb holster for deep concealment.

I have been made once by a random. I was putting groceries in the back of my car and my shirt rode up over the butt of my gun. A woman with a 6 year old child was getting out of the car next to me and she looked at me with the widest eyes I have ever seen. She grabbed her daughter and quickly rushed inside the store.

Point is, this stuff happens and as long as you have good intentions I think you will stay out of trouble.
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Old October 2, 2013, 09:27 AM   #34
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I seem to notice that most non gun people are not well attuned to this kind of quick slip. with all the sell phone holsters and other crap people wear on their belt, nobody really gives a doubletake if they see a black bulge on a belt out of the corner of their eye. WE might, because guns on belts are part of our world, but they are not really on the radar for the non gun public.
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Old October 2, 2013, 03:08 PM   #35
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It's been my experience through careful observation that 999/1000 people who happen to notice a civilian with a HOLSTERED firearm don't register anything positive or negative. Noticing something is different than having a reaction to it. People see a holster and are conditioned to assume that the person is law-enforcement, which equates to "good guy". Even a very short and mostly concealed IWB holster is enough of a "holster" to trigger the "good guy" response, which is to have no reaction at all, just like they have no reaction to the gun a cop is carrying. Even if they've seen enough TV to know that you're not LEO, the holster is what convinces them you're not a bad guy.

On the other hand, seeing a person carrying a non-holstered firearm (tucked in a pocket, hanging on a belt, shoved down your pants, etc)... causes immediate red-flags for everybody. You assume after watching thousands of TV shows that the person is up to no good... we're conditioned.
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Old October 2, 2013, 03:23 PM   #36
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no matter what your mode of carry is, you will expose your gun when you extend your clothing beyond its designed fit. ankle carry conceals well, until you cross your legs or strike a Capt. Morgan pose. IWB works well until you strike a Y or A in the YMCA pose.

if you are not conscious of your gun, you will expose it regularly.
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Old October 2, 2013, 03:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
The past couple of days I have accidently exposed my pistol twice, and both times it was in a very public place. No one seems to have noticed, but that does not reduce my concern about it.
Chalk it up to the digital age. Lots of people carry holsters on their belts these days, carrying devices, and now no one notices holsters any more. The total lack of situational awareness that most people have is exacerbated by the fact that a sizable portion of the population carries black holsters on their belts in the places we'd normally assume might be a firearm. It's not, and most people don't look for guns anyway.

I'm a schoolhouse cop, and I look at people's belts. Over the past several years the phones have gotten a little bigger (Think Samsung Galaxy S4) and the holsters have also gotten bigger. Folks are used to them and think nothing of a holster on someone's belt.
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Old October 2, 2013, 08:09 PM   #38
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Just moved to FL from KY. It it is showing in KY LE sees it you will be stopped.
He will want to know how you like the gun, if you had any luck deer/turkey hunting this year and do you think UK is going to beat Louisville this year.

FL is a little different story. 80% are Yankees and don't understand.

Doug
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Old October 2, 2013, 08:28 PM   #39
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^^^LOL! Iowa isn't much different really. We do have to have a permit to carry, regardless of if it is concealed or not, so there isn't much of a big deal made out of it. I wear XXL polo shirts when I go to a larger city, but around the sticks where I live, I just wear my usual XL T shirts, if it prints it prints. I'd rather have access to it if it is needed. I may try having a weight sewn into the polos, that's a great idea.

I agree that 99 percent if not 99.9 percent of people will never notice.. and the other percent or so either carries themselves or is in some way a LEO.
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Old October 28, 2013, 09:47 AM   #40
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When I still lived in Canada, years ago, a big IPSC/USPSA match in Arizona, a buddy and I attended.

There was a question on carry concealed, open ok, concealed not.

Spoke to local Police Officer in a mall. We both had vests on, he said what are you carrying, Colt 1911, what belt, and cost, magazines, same questions.
That's partially concealed. And we were Canadians.

A gang banger, with a .32 in his pocket, with 3 different manufacturers ammo, that's concealed! Said he.

Interpretation Arizona style.
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Old October 29, 2013, 05:22 PM   #41
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Quote:
Chalk it up to the digital age. Lots of people carry holsters on their belts these days, carrying devices, and now no one notices holsters any more.
Hell, half the time they wouldn't look up from their own phones long enough to notice you had a gun anyway.

Quote:
in fl incidental exposure isnt a problem....
It isn't supposed to be. But there isn't any case law on it yet, that I know of. And when you attract the attention of law enforcement, you invite the opportunity for someone to misinterpret the law.

But I really haven't had a problem with it. Usually I pocket carry. On the rarer occasions where I do carry on my belt, I just don't do anything where I'm reaching, stretching, lifting, running, dancing, swimming, etc.
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Old October 29, 2013, 09:31 PM   #42
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I normally carry a G19 IWB and could easily conceal a G17 or 1911 the same way. I carry mine about 3:30 so the butt of the gun doesn't protrude as much as say at 4 when bending over. If I must bend over I will often 1 knee it and stay as up right as practical.

When I need deep concealment for my job which includes manual labor I switch to rear pocket carry a Kahr CM9. Never an issue with that one at all.

I am mindful of printing, but not nearly as much as when I first started carrying. No one is paying attention to anything out there but their stupid IPhones.
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Old October 30, 2013, 03:40 AM   #43
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concealed

better half was on a plane a few years back when this guy had to stretch to put his bag over head. when he sat down she looked at him and grinned said hard to keep concealed sometimes isnt it. he just looked at her with a sheepish grin. "air marshal"
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Old October 30, 2013, 04:53 AM   #44
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It happens to me on a fairly regular basis (It's hard to maintain a composure when you're chasing a 3-year-old all over God's green earth), but I'm lucky enough to live in a open carry state, so it doesn't really matter.

IWB might hold your gun a little closer in to your body and make it harder for your shirt to catch if it does ride up.

Up here it's already cold enough for jackets which helps, but maybe a vest? Heavier fabrics tend to "stay down" better.
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Old October 30, 2013, 08:02 AM   #45
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If you can't go IWB.....

Quote:
I typically carry a small 9mm single stack with a belt slide holster, T-shirt tucked in to my trousers (denim shorts), and a Hawaiian shirt as a cover garment. I buy my cover garment shirts extra big and long, and I can raise my arms straight up and not expose even the bottom of my holster. The only thing more effective would be a trench coat. !!!

I could tell by feel that the shirt was wrapped up above the gun.

A gust of wind blew the shirt up over my gun as I was loading and maneuvering the timber.
These two instances would tell me that your Carry rig and Hawaiian shirt in combinaton, are not, in fact, anywhere near as effective as a trench coat .....


As others have noted, OWB requires a really long shirt ..... and maybe a weight on the hem of it, too .....

If your shirt keeps getting tucked up behind the gun, then your belt and holster are not keeping it close enough to your body. ...... that, and something (grips, holster, your (under and/or cover shirt(s), something) are not slippery enough to let the shirt fall back down when you straighten up ...... the sticky Pachmayr grips I had on my Ruger sp101 would cause my shirts to climb them in this manner....

If you are going to do a lot of bending over at the waist, get a smaller gun and move the gun aound to the 3:00 position so it does not stick out when you bend over .....
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Old October 30, 2013, 08:31 AM   #46
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You'd be surprised at how few people really PAY ATTENTION and of those few, most are either cops or other CCW carriers.
.... unfortuantely, some of those "CCW carriers" are not of the sort that are bothered to do so legally- and those are exactly the people you don't want to draw the attention of. The cops and the robbers will both have a clue what to look for .... that is why they call them "shoot me first vests" .......

I've added Hawaiian shirts to the SMF vests and the giant oversized hoodies as stuff to watch for .....
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Old October 30, 2013, 09:57 AM   #47
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Happened to me in the grocery the other day. The lady behind me in the check out line made a comment about the weather and then told me that I was printing when I bent over.
I was IWB with my Ruger SR9c (10 rnd magazine) wearing a tshirt and sweatshirt that covered my waist, so... I"m not sure if she just happened to be ogling my fine choice in Grambling sweatshirt attire or if I was seriously showing when I bent over.
I spent a few minutes in front of the mirror trying to figure that out after I got home.

First time for everything, I guess. I'm sticking with the original setup for now. I'll just bend from the knees. It's better for me anyhow.
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Old October 30, 2013, 09:57 AM   #48
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Agreed, the use of "cover" clothing makes it even easier to ID a carrier. Having traveled in some circles with others who were Fed LE, it was easy to study. Buffed out musculature, crew cut, tactical wear, and a fanny pack in front made it obvious.

Same for all the Woolrich shirts, Hawaiian shirts, photographer vests, etc. If it's nice weather and there's just one guy in the area with a vest out of season, hmm. Are their other clues? Black duty high tops, or is the belt especially heavy construction, a tad too wide, and it's not from Walmart?

I was at work when I came in the front door, a customer was reaching across the counter to pick up a heavy box when his sweater rode up and exposed his OWB holster. He quickly tugged it down - but what caught my attention was the fact it was heavily boned and looked exactly like what he intended to conceal - a gun. Are we doing ourselves a favor using a skin tight holster that actually gives things away?

A gun guru once pointed out that if it's concealed carry, you don't expose your gun anymore than you would expose yourself. Give it the same attention.
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Old October 30, 2013, 11:21 PM   #49
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Are we doing ourselves a favor using a skin tight holster that actually gives things away?
The issue is that if you intend to conceal you must conceal the holster too, unless it is completely disguised to look like something else.

If concealment is intended and the person carrying intends to do anything other than walk around without bending over, reaching up or sitting down then even a relatively concealable OWB holster requires a cover garment that reaches below crotch level.

The rule of thumb is 6" below the lowest point that reveals any recognizable part of the gun or holster.
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Old October 31, 2013, 10:56 AM   #50
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Some thoughts from Mas on this statement, in a email from him
Quote:
In Wyoming we have "Constitutional Carry".
I'm copying the email because at the bottom it states to share or bookmark.
Quote:
“CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY”
Posted: 11 Oct 2013 09:10 AM PDT
For longer than anyone reading this has been alive, the state of Vermont has allowed its citizens and its visitors to carry loaded, concealed handguns in public with no permit required. The Michael Bloombergs of the world fear that such a practice will make the proverbial blood run in the streets…but history has shown us the reverse. Every year, Vermont is one of the LOWEST violent crime states in the nation. In recent years Alaska and then Arizona adopted the same thing. So did Wyoming, though that state limited permitless carry to Wyoming residents. Whaddaya know: rivers of blood haven’t swept through any of their streets, either. I’m happy with these results: an old New Englander, I believe “if I ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” Allowing good people to carry guns without permits, and merely forbidding convicted criminals, adjudicated mentally incompetent people, and others to do it, has worked out surprisingly well.


One suggestion, though. Many on the gun owners’ civil rights side have come to call this “Constitutional Carry.” Having been in a lot of different kinds of fights over the years, I’ve learned not to give advantages to my opponents, or leave openings through which they can hurt me. I believe referring to lawful permitless carry as “Constitutional Carry” gives the prohibitionists such an opportunity.


Why? Any fifteen-year-old kid taking high school Civics 101 knows that the arbiter of Constitutional law in this country is the Supreme Court of the United States. In two recent decisions which are landmark victories for our side – Heller v. District of Columbia and McDonald, et. al. v. Chicago – SCOTUS has confirmed that the right to keep and bear arms in the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is indeed an individual right. However, both of those decisions have also made it clear that the states have the right to regulate the practice.


Which means that while the right to keep and bear arms is indeed Constitutional, to be technically correct the right to carry without a permit in the above-named states flows from the wise majority in their state legislatures, and not directly from the Second Amendment.
Words mean things. If we use the wrong terms, we compromise our credibility, and our factual credibility is our strongest weapon in this polarized debate. That’s why I for one do not describe permitless carry as “Constitutional carry.”

If we need a term with a catchy ring to it, we can simply invoke the peaceful valleys of the Green Mountain State and very appropriately call it … “the Vermont Model.”Share or Bookmark
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