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Old September 6, 2013, 10:49 AM   #1
B. Lahey
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Attempted Disarmament and Deadly Force

I am currently doing a bit of legal writing, and need a citation to (preferrably) a professional firearms trainer / expert / law enforcement authority stating that it is acceptable to use deadly force against a person trying to gain control of a person's lawfully carried firearm.

I know police have shot miscreants attempting to disarm them, but a news report isn't the same as a direct statement from a respected individual; for my purposes here, anyway.

It would be best if it was written in a book or training manual, but other methods of publication would be ok if the source is well enough respected.

Thanks!
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Old September 6, 2013, 10:58 AM   #2
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From a law enforcement stand point If you attempt to disarm me in the performance of my duties you will be shot. From day one of the academy we were taught a gun grab equals level 6 (Deadly force) on the force continuum which equals the same response from me. It’s no different when I’m off duty. The important thing is how you articulate it in your report. As far as in print it was in my book during the academy but I have no idea what the name of the book was but I can pretty much assure you that any police manuel that adresses use of force will have it.
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Old September 6, 2013, 11:24 AM   #3
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Sorry I can't help with a reference, not being a "respected professional" (at anything, really).

But I have to wonder about a couple things. When you say "taking control of" you mean physically grabbing a gun you are wearing or holding?

I'm no legal beagle, but doesn't that constitute assault? Possibly Assault with a deadly weapon?

Would not a reasonable and prudent person believe that someone who tries to take a loaded gun from you (by force) is doing so, so that they may use the gun? And since you are right there, doesn't that put you at the top of their potential target list? Seems like a deadly threat, to me, but then, I'm no expert.

Orders to put the gun down, etc. from uniformed, and/or identified lawful authority are one thing, some guy grabbing at a gun on you or in your hands quite another.

Personally, I'd put it on the same level with someone pounding your head into the pavement. At that point, HOW the situation came about is irrelevant. What matters is you are being attacked, and deadly force is already in the mix.

I'd call it a no-brainer, but as we have seen, time, and time again, other people can see even the clearest things in a different light than I do.
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Old September 6, 2013, 01:58 PM   #4
B. Lahey
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I know it's common sense, and numbskulls get justifiably shot for it on a regular basis, but I need a cite. I already referenced one Ayoob book, but my personal library is pretty scrawny.

I need to write an appropriate argument to cite Jeff Cooper in a legal document sometime, that would be awesome.

Quote:
When you say "taking control of" you mean physically grabbing a gun you are wearing or holding?
Yep.
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Old September 6, 2013, 02:02 PM   #5
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www.policeone.com - if you use their search on handgun retention lots of videos come up and discussion. Should be something there, or I hope.

There are videos of retention shooting.

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Old September 6, 2013, 08:33 PM   #6
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IF you google "Use of force continuum" you will get some great results.

Here's one I found offhand:

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/portals/0...econtinuum.jpg
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Old September 6, 2013, 10:07 PM   #7
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Anyone who tries to pull a gun on me has warranted the use of deadly force. My gun, their gun, Ronald McDonald's gun; it doesn't matter. Don't pull a gun except to use it. Expect the same from others.
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Old September 6, 2013, 10:13 PM   #8
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once a very long time ago I had a person attempt to disarm me. I didn't shoot him. he did take a trip to the hospital, Dislocated finger and a damaged shoulder, separated as I recall but I'm not sure.
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Old September 6, 2013, 10:20 PM   #9
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Massad Ayoob has written about this. Google search should bring up a relevant article or two.

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Old September 7, 2013, 12:09 AM   #10
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Ayoob, George Zimmerman trial....

I agree that a Nexus-Lexus search or maybe something from the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin may have some legal documents or court cases.
Massad Ayoob wrote a recent gun press item on armed citizens & open carry.

George Zimmerman stated to the Sanford police investigators that Trevon Martin saw his Kel Tec PF 9 pistol then said; "Tonight you die, _____ _____."during the violent encounter.

I, for one would consider a gun snatch or a assault to be a justified use of lethal force if the attacker is trying to actively kill you.
The same would go for a Taser/EDW or a impact weapon. Violent felons do not play fair or follow any rules or laws.
They will kill you as quickly as they can.
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Old September 7, 2013, 11:53 AM   #11
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I would say Mas Ayoob would be the one to cite. Knows his stuff, and has been a nationally recognized expert for years. He's even posted on TFL (in the distant past).

You might even consider contacting him, directly. From all I've heard, (read a lot of his work, never met him personally) he's a good guy.

Good luck!
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Old September 7, 2013, 01:38 PM   #12
ClydeFrog
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S2institute.com ....

You may also want to contact Jay Pace, www.S2institute.com .
Pace & other cadre teach a weapon retention & defense class in the Tampa FL area.
Mr Pace is a top notch instructor. He is a retired LEO, Largo Florida PD & a USMC combat vetetan(SE Asia, Scout-Sniper).
He or another instructor may be able to assist you.

Clyde
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Old September 8, 2013, 04:58 AM   #13
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The only concern that I would have would be if they don't get your gun. If the struggle is for the gun, and you retain it, I don't know that you could just shoot them as you got distance and were able to draw. However, if you instructed them to stop and back off and they didn't, then I think you would have reasonable grounds for defense. I'm not a lawyer, but that would seem logical to me.
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Old September 8, 2013, 10:51 AM   #14
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another point....

Use of force incidents are fluid & stressful but its important to know what you'd do in a given situation.
About 5 years ago, a female uniformed deputy in my area was seriously injured by a unarmed larger male. The sworn deputy chased the subject out of a Home Depot when he turned & lunged at her in the parking lot.
If I were a bystander or witnessed the attack, I would draw and fire on the male subject if I had a clear shot. The subject beat & choked the deputy savagely. She was seriously injured & was in a ICU for several days. The male who beat her was later convicted of multiple charges. The female deputy got a medical retirement.
If a armed person is attacked, it clearly demonstrates the level of instability & violence a subject is capable of which causes an increased risk to public safety.

CF
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Old September 8, 2013, 11:03 AM   #15
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"However, if you instructed them to stop and back off and they didn't, then I think you would have reasonable grounds for defense."



Speaking from officer standpoint....If someone makes an attempt to take a weapon that justifies use of deadly force. If you do disengage without firing for whatever reason, like weapon out of battery/loose mag etc, then it is taught to back and off and tap/rack, bang OR then give commands to get on the ground or whatever. If they then move toward you again it is justifiable to shoot at that point as well as they have already demonstrated the intent to disarm/use deadly force and were just fortunate they were not shot the first time. That was taught in the last class I had on tactics and retention.

Last edited by TLeo; September 8, 2013 at 11:10 AM.
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Old September 8, 2013, 02:20 PM   #16
hermannr
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As a person that has open carried for 43 years, I have never had anyone attempt to disarm me. I have had shady people cross the street to keep from walking past me though, and one open assault stop short (the guy was screaming he was going to pound me into a pulp). When the guy saw I was armed (carry never left the holster) he changed his mind very quickly, and left.

IMHO, a LEO is much more likely to be put in the position of an attempted gun grab than a non-LEO. That does not mean you do not need to know how to defend against a gun grab, just that when you Open Carry you are telling everyone that you take your personal safety seriously, and most likely will know how to use what you carry. To my knowledge no one, other than LE, has every had their OC successfully grabbed and used against them.

A LEO, on the other hand, will insert him/herself into a situation where the person being arrested, detained, etc. may panic and not do what that same person normally would in the same situation with a non-LEO. Panic does strange things to people's ability to think rationally.
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Old September 8, 2013, 07:14 PM   #17
ClydeFrog
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Ayoob; San Antonio Texas PD....

Years ago(5/6) Massad Ayoob wrote about a young police officer who was too timid & risk adverse in training. He was under review & his instructors/field training officers advised that he be separated from the PD(San Antonio TX) but the dept was short-handed.
A short time later, the officer was attacked & beaten by a pack of thugs. The group took his weapons then killed him with his own sidearm.

The point is that you can't be risk adverse. If you open carry, be ready to defend against gun grabs.
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Old September 9, 2013, 01:39 PM   #18
Derbel McDillet
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Mas Ayoob - ZIMMERMAN VERDICT, PART 2: THE “UNARMED TEEN” (http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/Massa...-unarmed-teen/)
Quote:
If I’m your criminal attacker, you don’t have to wait for me to shoot you before you can shoot me to defend your life, and you don’t even need to wait until the gun is in my hand. If I announce my intent to murder you and reach for a gun, I’m bought and paid for right there. And it doesn’t matter whether the gun I’m reaching for is in my holster, or yours. That’s why every year in America, when thugs try to grab a policeman’s gun and are shot, the shootings are ruled justifiable.
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Old September 9, 2013, 06:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Lahey
I need to write an appropriate argument to cite Jeff Cooper in a legal document sometime, that would be awesome.
Jeff Cooper was not a judge. You don't "cite" him, you "quote" him. And, since he was not a lawyer or a judge or a legislator, why would anything he said or wrote be "awesome" in the context of legal writing?

Mas Ayoob is a sworn police officer. Even his writings are a far cry short of authoritative in terms of providing a legal "citation," but they're at least closer than the Colonel's.

[No, I am not dissing Colonel Cooper. I quote him frequently. But he was NOT a source that constitutes a legal citation.]
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Old September 9, 2013, 10:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
. You don't "cite" him, you "quote" him.
You certainly do "cite him" by citing one of his articles or books that you use as a reference, whether you quote him or not. Whether he is a persuasive source is a different issue. Lawyers cite to all sorts of non-legal authority, everything from the census to sociological sources to The Federalist Papers. In the most recent brief I filed, I cited to an article on microscopic hair analysis from a forensic journal and a compendium of DNA-related cases compiled by The Innocence Project.
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Old September 10, 2013, 12:09 PM   #21
B. Lahey
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Thanks, all. Found some great stuff that fits in well. When the case is finished I'll try to remember to come back and post an update.

Aguila Blanca, as KyJim pointed out, I can cite darn near anything I want in my legal writing. Scholarly articles and regular books right along with cases and legal treatises.
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