The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 2, 2013, 11:33 AM   #1
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,051
Does deburring help?

I've read overtime here and there on different web sites that a few fellows had used buffing/grinding compound to de-burr their B/P rifles bore with. I assume doing so helped its accuracy or perhaps the barrels reload-ability. For those in the know would/could you recommend doing that too all barrels? ie {lapping a barrels bore regardless of its condition.} Curious about this subject. I'm always on the scout looking to better my rifle behavior if its simple and something I can do myself.
BTW thanks for commenting.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 11:51 AM   #2
Rigmarol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 341
I've heard similar things.
Personally, I've never done it. Have owned about a dozen or so rifles in my life and have always just shot and cleaned. Maybe I was just lucky.

I saw a youtube video a while ago where a CAS shooter filled his revolver's gunworks with an abrasive toothpaste and just worked the action for days to smooth it out.
Rigmarol is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 12:58 PM   #3
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 11,718
I wouldn't do it unless its cutting patches. Just shooting it will smooth it up.

Quote:
I saw a youtube video a while ago where a CAS shooter filled his revolver's gunworks with an abrasive toothpaste and just worked the action for days to smooth it out.
I wouldn't use an abrasive but my Rossi 92 had a rough action and I filled it with white lithium grease and worked it a few hours. Its slicker than snot on a porcelain doorknob now.
Hawg is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 04:28 PM   #4
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,936
Quote:
I wouldn't use an abrasive...
I'm in Hawg's camp when it would come to the bbl.

I have used compounds on tight 1911 slides when building one but would never put any in the trigger ass'y etc. where I couldn't control what all was being polished.
shortwave is offline  
Old September 3, 2013, 07:18 AM   #5
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,051
In a couple of those threads I read where those individuals lapped their barrels. There wasn't enough clarity just why they did it. Other than removing some ruff material here and there in a barrels bore. So I assumed lapping had something to do with accurizing a barrel. But its better to ask here first and than be sorry later. Since Hawg brought up the subject of cutting patches. How does cutting patches affect accuracy? I know patches get engraved by the bores rifling. So long as they don't burn badly is the main concern I was always told to be aware of. _"I've never heard about a bores rifling cutting its patches."_ {Perhaps if the rifle was brand I could see it happening"} But if the patch cutting is on going. Huh?~~? Hopefully someone will comment on that subject a little.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old September 3, 2013, 08:02 AM   #6
BirchOrr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2012
Location: Eaton Rapids, MI
Posts: 348
J-B

The best product I've found for this application is "J-B non-imbedding bore cleaning compound".

I had a new rifle that was shooting very inconsistent and I was very disappointed to say the least. I worked the bore with the J-B and was quite amazed and pleased with the result. It is guaranteed to improve the accuracy of any firearm.

I've also used it to clean barrels others have brought me needing help (from neglect). Some were so bad I used a patch of the J-B over a bore brush on my range rod in a cordless drill. It will clean and smooth the nastiest of barrels.

Birch
__________________
Black Powder: Not because it is easy, but because it is hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win...
BirchOrr is offline  
Old September 3, 2013, 08:14 AM   #7
Wild Bill Bucks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2005
Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch
Posts: 1,264
I am not an expert on the subject, but the purpose of lapping the bore is to remove tooling marks left from the rifling process, and ensure a dimensionally uniform bore from end to end. It provides a uniform, clean, polished interior finish that follows the direction of the rifling groove spiral.

The benefits of lapping are more consistency in velocity and accuracy, and eliminates much of the break-in process. It tends to gather less copper and fouling, which makes the barrel cleaning much easier, as well as reducing the difference in POI between clean and fouled barrels.

This is NOT a process for the novice, and if not done correctly, can result in barrel that will not give you the expected results, and will ruin accuracy.

It is completely useless in a custom competition barrel since they will come with this process already done. It is mostly done on barrels of the commercial grade, or barrels that have had damage due to bad cleaning techniques.

If you are thinking about having this done, it needs to be done by a PRO.

I lapped my Savage MLII when I first got it because my groups were about 4" apart out of the box, and it had lots of burrs down the barrel. After about 100 strokes, the barrel started shooting 1" groups consistently.

I could have probably done about the same thing by running 50 shots through the rifle, but the cost of powder and bullets, would have been quite expensive, and I got the rifle about 3 days before deer season, and I really did not have the time required to break in the rifle with this method.

By doing it this way, I was able to get the barrel done and sighted in properly with only two trips to the range, and it was good to go.
Wild Bill Bucks is offline  
Old September 5, 2013, 05:55 AM   #8
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,051
Quote:
This is NOT a process for the novice,
Well that puts the kibosh on that activity I guess. Well for me anyways. So in other words: "If you don't have a bum barrel full of burrs its best to leave it alone Bub." Mine doesn't, So I'll take your advice there Wild Bill Bucks and "leave well enough alone." As I commented earlier. And glad I did._
Quote:
But its better to ask here first than be sorry later.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old September 5, 2013, 07:06 AM   #9
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 16,839
The late great Gale McMillan was once asked at this website about barrel break in procedures. His response? Just shoot it.

If you're looking to make loading easier, you might want to do what TC does with some of their rifles: Bore out the first 1/2" to facilitate loading.

Otherwise, if you want easier loading, go with proven and fool proof technology -- Minie rifle. Undersized bullet that drops in easily and expands to fit the rifling. The big bullets hits out to 500 yards.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old September 5, 2013, 07:29 AM   #10
NoSecondBest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 843
If you ever get a chance take a look inside a Savage ML2 smokeless muzzle loader barrel. Talk about tool marks! It looks like they cut the rifling with a file and missed a lot of spots. The amount of tool "chatter" is unreal. However, they will shoot 1moa or very close to it with the right sabot, bullet, and powder. I'd suggest that you shoot the gun and see how it's shooting before attempting a process probably left to a very experienced person or a professional gunsmith. You may gain nothing and actually lose something in the process if you don't know what you're doing.
NoSecondBest is offline  
Old September 5, 2013, 09:54 AM   #11
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 5,580
Just shoot it.

Quote:
Just shoot it.

I too have read a few articles on this and have always been leery about lapping, so have never done one as it's hard to tell where to stop. ...

At the range, I always read my patches and Sabots, especially on a new rifle. My last one, was a Lyman and indeed, it was cutting patches. Even though it can effect accuracy, I just kept shooting it and surprising, in short time, the cutting was resolved. It really does not take much. ....

Regardless of the cause, If you are cutting patches, you are also cutting Lead....

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is online now  
Old September 5, 2013, 11:53 AM   #12
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,089
Savage and TC barrels are often very rough and hard to load. It also tears up the ball patches.

My method is really easy, i use jeweler's rouge on a patch pushed by a loading jag on the ramrod. Put on a new patch covered with jewelers rouge after each 50 passes. 100-200 passes smooths the rifling and makes the gun load easier.
thallub is offline  
Old September 5, 2013, 09:33 PM   #13
MattShlock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2013
Posts: 239
Might do rouge once. SHouldn't be necessary in the 20th C. no less 21st!
MattShlock is offline  
Old September 6, 2013, 06:56 AM   #14
Captchee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2013
Posts: 312
I think it might be important here to maybe grasp a couple things .
When someone is talking about running an abrasive patch down their bore , they really are not truly lapping the bore . Its more along the lines of a polish .
A true lap includes not just the lands but also the groves . It also insures that the rifling stays sharp , crisp and true vs. what the first application does is polish and attempt to nock off any burrs that maybe left from the actual process of the forming the rifling .

As another poster said . Sometimes it will help . Other times it will do nothing . It just depends on what the actual problem is that causing the need for lack of a better word , the need for lapping .

Through the years I have done both , actual lapping and the more common simple bore clean up type lapping ..
Most times the bore clean up is done because of patches being torn or as mentioned burrs ..
To answer the question about torn patchs , what happens is that when a patch tears , it then leaks pressure through and around that tear . As such the pressure is then un even and when the ball or patched conical leaves the bore , that resulting uneven pressure can throw things off .

I would also agree that just shooting the gun is the best way if a person cannot do a true lap . But sometimes that takes time .
One thing that has not been mentioned is what was called fire lapping . I have also done this in both muzzleloader and center fire .
Basically what fire lapping involves is the application of a polishing compound into the grease of either the patch or in the grease groves of the conical .
The projectile is fired , the bore cleaned and the process repeated . Normally 4 or 5 times .
This however also does not take the place of a true lapp job “LOL”
Captchee is offline  
Old September 6, 2013, 06:47 PM   #15
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,758
Quote:
shooting the gun is the best way...But sometimes that takes time
True, but that's the fun part - taking time shooting is a good thing.
mykeal is offline  
Old September 7, 2013, 10:46 AM   #16
MattShlock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2013
Posts: 239
To the last two posters' points, in modern rifles the way it's often done, breaking in a gun, is simply to fire FMJ bullets thru the gun at first...
MattShlock is offline  
Old September 7, 2013, 12:20 PM   #17
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,051
I've got a candidate for bore polishing or de-burring. Yup!! got one of those G/M LRH barrels in (stainless) for my 45 Hawken. {a quickie twist having/ 1x28 rifling}_The barrel doesn't cut or tear-up its sabots.{that I know of. Reason: I can't find' em}_ But its got to be one of the toughest barrels I've ever encountered to reload sabot into after being fired once only (w/ 2-FF Homemade &/or Gorex)_ Are stainless barrels historically that hard to reload? Do they ever break in? even a little? {My Goodness I almost have to use a 16 oz. Claw Hammer and a door hinge pin as its Short Starter.}
All my blued barrels seem to get a little better or break themselves in with their shooting over time. (especially concerning their reload-abilities count.)

Not so with that stainless!!_ Do you think it would be advisable to get one of those lapp jobs Captchee suggested?
As is. I highly doubt I'll be around long enough to break this Stainless steel one in all by myself ._ ___O-Well what say you fellows? got any Tips or Suggestions?
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old September 7, 2013, 03:15 PM   #18
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 5,580
Hard call !!

Quote:
Are stainless barrels historically that hard to reload?
I own two and can't say that they are any harder to load than my blued barrels. However, none of my are 1:28. One barrel does have shallow rifling and that might add to the tightness. I'm understanding that you do not know if you are cutting patches or damaging sabots. So, you are suspecting that you either have a rough bore or just tight; Right ???

If you are comfortable doing so, dry-ball a load and pull it back out, with a screw jag. If you are not comfortable with this, Then down-load a PRB, find your patches and read then. Of, you can just go ahead and try lapping them. If can pretty well inspect my bores by dropping a bore light down the barrel and look into the muzzle with various lenses I have. ...

The truly cut patches I have run into, on new barrels, look like they have been cut with a very sharp knife. Pitted barrels make rougher uneven cuts.

Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is online now  
Old September 7, 2013, 07:02 PM   #19
MattShlock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 8, 2013
Posts: 239
Someone needs smaller balls. Thinner patches?
MattShlock is offline  
Old September 8, 2013, 12:54 PM   #20
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,936
S.S.McGee,

Have you tried thinner sabots for the bullets you are using?

Quote:
Are stainless barrels historically that hard to reload?
Not ordinarily. Though you may have gotten a bbl. a bit on the tight side of specs. Use an inside caliper to measure your bore diameter and then buy sabots for better fit/easier loading.

Below are a few good reads on the topic.

FWIW: I have purchased sabots in bulk from MMP and their CS is very good at assisting in getting the right projectile/sabot combo.

Harvester Muzzleloading Hunter: Choosing The Right Sabot ...
harvestermlhunter.blogspot.com/.../choosing-right-sabot...

Precision Rifle - Question
www.prbullet.com/sab.htm


MMP SABOTS : Blackpowder Muzzleloader Sabots And Accessories
mmpsabots.com

Crushed Rib Sabots and Scorpion PT Gold Bullets
http://www.chuckhawks.com/crushed_ri...on_bullets.htm
shortwave is offline  
Old September 8, 2013, 07:53 PM   #21
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,051
shortwave

Have tried all that you have listed one time or another and more. The one I prefer to date is the link (below.) LRH quicky twist barrel of mine shoots them well with little resistance when reloading in a fouled first shot barrel. But most of the other brands of sabot combo's marketed sure put up a fight in their reloading. Those are the sabots combo's I've been commenting about. Those others.

http://www.prbullet.com/shop/product....php?sSKU=0125
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old September 9, 2013, 07:22 AM   #22
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,936
^^^Gotcha!

I think.

You've tried most all pre-packaged combo sabot(bullet/sabot)) and first shot on clean bbl is loadable, second shot on fouled bbl is loadable as well, but third shot on fowled bbl is very hard to load.

Posted by: 4V50 Gary:
Quote:
Otherwise, if you want easier loading, go with proven and fool proof technology -- Minie rifle. Undersized bullet that drops in easily and expands to fit the rifling. The big bullets hits out to 500 yards.
Have you tried PowerBelts bullets?

Out of five inlines, I have three that shoot/load PowerBelts very well(deer accuracy out to 150yds) with charges from 90-110grns.
Can shoot 5-6 rds. before swabbing using American Pioneer/Cleanshot powder capped with a Rem. SST 209 primer
Two don't shoot them well at all(accuracy).
But all load very easily.

Have you tried a different powder that is possibly cleaner burning? Maybe American Pioneer/Cleanshot?

What about your primer? Like powders, some are dirtier then others.

...or you may be stuck with swabbing after that second shot.

Another suggestion which you probably already do, especially on a tight bbl., is use the least amount of charge you can that still does the job.

Seems you just have a 'tight' bbl. and the above suggestions will not cure that but possibly give you at least one more shot or two before swabbing.

Last edited by shortwave; September 9, 2013 at 08:30 AM.
shortwave is offline  
Old September 9, 2013, 08:40 AM   #23
Wild Bill Bucks
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2005
Location: Southeastern Oklahoma, Next door to Sasquatch
Posts: 1,264
Sure Shot,

I have 5 different BP rifles and after measuring the barrels, I have tolerances from .498 to .503 inches. no 2 of the rifles have the exact same tolerance.

My suggestion is to measure your barrel, and then call MMP and talk to their Customer Assist. Dept. They know sabots from one end to the other, and are very helpful in determining what sabot will help with your barrel.

Three of my rifles will shoot the same sabot very well, but the other two have to have completely different sabots to shoot right.
Wild Bill Bucks is offline  
Old September 9, 2013, 05:07 PM   #24
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Posts: 2,051
shortwave: To clarify. I have a (traditional) 45 caliber cap lock T/C Hawken with a G/M {stainless} LRH barrel installed at times with its 1X28 twist. I shoot Homemade or Gorex black 2-FF around 75-78 on the (volume (slide) of my powder measure'r under a PR H.P. bullet. {PRs>Extreme Elite sabot & bullet combo} The PR sabot seems to reload better with a fouled barrel than all the other sabot & bullet combos I've tried. But I'm lucky to get two decent PR reloading's before having to swab that barrel. If I try for a third reloading with a fouled barrel. I end up looking for a sturdy tree to help push its (mid barrel stuck) sabot & bullet down to its ledger marked ram rod.

No I haven't tried Powerbelt's.

As far as trying Minie and maxi balls. I have tried both in that LRH 45 barrel I have. Both offered mediocre accuracy at best. (Lyman maxi cast & RCBS minie cast.) _I will say both reloaded very well in their fouled barrels. {But that's the only good impression I got from either's use.}

I don't have nor ever bought an inline rifle. Still shooting traditional {double set} cap locks and one lonely T/C 50 Cal. stone chipper. I guess "I'm just trying to make do with what rifles I have."

Wild Bill Bucks: Maybe I'll give that MMP suggestion of yours a try. Perhaps they may suggest something more appropriate in their lineup of sabot products other than the product I previously tried of theirs.
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old September 9, 2013, 09:26 PM   #25
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,936
Thanks for the clarification S.S.

You may want to give PowerBelts a try in that 1:28 bbl. to see what you think. You may just get lucky.

All five of my inlines have 1:28 bbls as well but only three of them will shoot the PowerBelts. All of my traditionals have 1:48 bbls so I'm slinging mostly PRB through them with an occasional all lead maxi or minie. They will not shoot PowerBelts at all.

You can still try AAP/Cleanshot in your traditional and see if it's a bit cleaner burnin then what you're using. I like it in traditionals as it seems to burn more cleanly then others(including Goex or T7) and have never had any ignition problems in any of them.

The website that MMP offers is very helpful as suggested. Their CS will gladly work with you in working up a sabot for your bullet or a combo, but you'll have to measure your bbl.

To sum things up, if it were me with a tight bbl. I would:
1) shoot the cleanest shooting powder/primer I could as long as it was reliable

2) I would measure my bbl. and call MMP's CS and see if they had a thinner walled sabot for my preferred bullet.

3)If they didn't I'd ask them their recommended bullet/sabot combo for my bbl size.

...and somewhere in the mix, try some PowerBelts.

Too, I hope you get a combo figured out soon cause I've been thinkin of getting a 1:28 bbl for one of my caplocks as well. Then I can just pick your brain.

Last edited by shortwave; September 9, 2013 at 10:12 PM.
shortwave is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13096 seconds with 7 queries