The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 1, 2013, 07:42 AM   #1
Keg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,072
Mauser project..what would U do?

I picked up this 1909 Argentine...All the numbers match...Its has been rebored to 30-06...Not sure the story on that...I'm just not sure what I wanna do with it....Any cool ideas?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0001.JPG (87.6 KB, 86 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0004.JPG (75.4 KB, 72 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0005.JPG (99.0 KB, 73 views)
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........
Keg is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 07:43 AM   #2
Keg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,072
..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0006.JPG (102.9 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0007.JPG (88.0 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0008.JPG (83.9 KB, 57 views)
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........
Keg is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 07:44 AM   #3
Keg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,072
...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0009.JPG (90.6 KB, 54 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0011.JPG (78.8 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0013.JPG (103.7 KB, 51 views)
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........
Keg is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 08:18 AM   #4
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 1,241
How about something like this?
Wyosmith is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 08:20 AM   #5
Wyosmith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Shoshoni Wyoming
Posts: 1,241




Wyosmith is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 11:16 AM   #6
Savage99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Posts: 389
Keg,

Take it back to where you got it and trade it for a finished gun.
Savage99 is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 11:36 AM   #7
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,133
The Argentine action is popular among those Mauser lovers that use those old actions to make sporter rifles. But, and here is the big butt, they are operating these conversions at pressures that were above the proof pressures of the original action. And here is another big butt, pre 1920 actions are made out of inferior, plain carbon steels, that were made under primitive process controls, and thus are highly variable in quality. The machining may be great but that says nothing about steel quality. You could put a lot of money into these old actions and get lug set back.

If you plan to shoot 30-06 in the thing don’t load to 60,000 psia loads. Keep your loads in the 40K psia region. Also, the original barrel is not a 308, it is larger, from 0.311 to 0.312” and accuracy with 308 bullets will seldom be as good if it had been left in the original caliber. The 7.65 Arg is a great round in its own right, but in the 50’s and 60’s, sticking a reamer in the chamber for the 30-06 conversion was cheap and simple. Finding 7.65 Arg cases was difficult.

I would not spend the money to covert it to a modern sporter configuration with a modern barrel, bend bolt handle, scope mounts, and new stock. Glaciers move faster than most gunsmiths, it could be years before you get it back, and the cost will be much higher than buying a nice new M70.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 12:03 PM   #8
Keg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,072
Quote:
How about something like this?
That wood is awesome!

Quote:
Keg,

Take it back to where you got it and trade it for a finished gun.
Today 08:20 AM
Actually..I have'nt found any finished custom mausers lately..that I liked..or were for sale....

Quote:
I would not spend the money to covert it to a modern sporter configuration with a modern barrel, bend bolt handle, scope mounts, and new stock. Glaciers move faster than most gunsmiths, it could be years before you get it back, and the cost will be much higher than buying a nice new M70.
I have plenty Model 70's....A custom gun to my liking sounds good right now....
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........
Keg is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 01:05 PM   #9
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,405
You could sporterize it and rebarrel to a lower pressure round like 8x57 js or .35 remington for example. But if if it were me I would look for a stronger action and build what I wanted if I were putting that much time and money into it.
__________________
"I don't understand all that I know"

"I never said half the crap that people on the internet claim I said" - Abraham Lincoln
steveNChunter is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 01:21 PM   #10
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,372
Once upon a time the 1909 was popular for hunting rifles because of peacetime quality and the sporter style floorplate latch.

It was common to barrel them for .280 Remington which was loaded a bit lighter than most in consideration of the Remington 742 auto.
It also had the advantage that no boltface or magazine changes were needed, which left the gunsmith more of his time and your money to make it nice looking.
But then it got to be the fashion to overload the .280 so owners could brag that it "approaches 7mm Magnum." This got to the point that they were reforming Winchester .270 brass which was the hardest then available.

You could put a 7x57 barrel on it and do everything W.D.M. Bell did... if you are good enough.
Jim Watson is online now  
Old September 1, 2013, 05:02 PM   #11
Paul B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,693
I believe all the 1909 Argentines were made by DWM and that means genuine Mauser. It has been said that some of the actions were soft but all you need to do is have the action reheat treated. That's what I did when I had my .280Rem. build done. I do push my handloads somewhat but there hasn't been a problem with that rifle.
My rifle has a 24" Douglas barrel,custom bolt handle, rust bluing , very pretty piece of wood carved out and checkered by Sterling Davenpot, all metal work done by the Harry Lawson compay here in Tucson. It cost me a few bucks but it was worth it.
If you're worried about the hardness, there are places where you can have that checked out before you start any work.
One thing I would check out is the bore diameter of your barrel The 30-06 is supposed to be .308". If it's a rechambered 7.65x53, the bore will be IITC, .312". Accuracy won't be very good if any at all.
Making a relatively decent custom from any milsurp Mauser is going to run into money and it could mean serious money. Lots of labor at roughly $50 an hour or more depending on who's doing the work.
Get the bore diameter checked first, then the action tested for heat treatment and have it done if necessary. Then you can decide what to do.
Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
Paul B. is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 05:10 PM   #12
Keg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,072
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70888

An older thread on the 1909...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85900

Another...I always wanted a 257 Roberts..I may go this route....
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........

Last edited by Keg; September 1, 2013 at 05:24 PM.
Keg is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 06:42 PM   #13
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,133
You basically asked a question to validate your course of action. You did not get it from me, but so what, do what you want to do.

I would be curious to know, after heat treating, after rebarreling, after bending the bolt handle, after adding an appropriate safety, (I like the 3 position M70), new trigger mechanism, drilling and tapping, new barrel, bluing, new stock, bedding, shaping the trigger guard, just how much you spent on the project.

Please come back and tell us when its done.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 07:59 PM   #14
Old Stony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2013
Location: East Texas
Posts: 690
A little perspective from an old retired guy. Don't let the cost bother you if this is something you really want to do. When it's all said and done, money is just colored paper and won't be as much fun for you as that rifle. I look back at some folly or other I embarked on and consider them as just learning experiences. Some turned out better than others, but all were just another one of life's experiences. So what if a guy spends more on a project like you are considering? A custom rifle that you like is something special just for you, not an off the shelf production rifle like other people have. So I say....go for it!!! A 7x57 sounds interesting to me.
Old Stony is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 08:02 PM   #15
wpsdlrg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 18, 2009
Posts: 472
The 1909's are usually of excellent quality. All of the 1909's were made by DWM, as far as I know....and the metallurgy tends to be among the best of the Mauser world. It already has a bent bolt handle - so nothing needed there (for benefit of those who don't seem to know this). I wonder if some of you are confusing this rifle with the 1891 Argentine ?

The concerns involving the conversion to 30-06 are sound. Unless the action was re-barreled with a .308 diameter barrel, it won't be worth a darn with 30 cal. bullets. You COULD work up a "wildcat", with 30-06 cases, necked up to take 0.312" bullets. That presupposes that the "conversion" was done well, though. DO have it checked out by someone competent, before proceeding with anything like that (let alone shooting it as is).

Anyway, as to what to do with it.....your call, of course. IF it were me, I'd either restore it to original configuration....and use it like that. Or, more likely, I'd re-barrel it to a suitable cartridge, such as 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser, back to 7.65 x 53, etc. ....and re-stock it as a sporter.

Even if re-barreled, I'd still load a bit light to mid-range, not the hot end of the spectrum. Not necessarily out of concerns for the metallurgy, but simply from a sense of not abusing the old girl. I do exactly that with my Yugo M48 - I load only just as hot as I need. As such, the old girl will probably outlive me.
wpsdlrg is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 09:03 PM   #16
James K
Staff
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 19,951
That 1909 is a large ring 98 Mauser. Mauser made them all to the same specs regardless of whether the caliber was 8x57js or an older, pre-98 caliber like 7x57 or 7.65x54, so (barring some flaw in the conversion) the idea that the gun is going to blow up with .30-'06 is a bit silly. I wouldn't worry about safety with .30-'06, but if the rifle has only been rechambered and not rebarrelled, accuracy could be a problem.

(In most cases, as with the Argentine contract, an older caliber was chosen by the purchaser because they had existing rifles in that caliber and had ammunition stocks or, in some cases, a factory set up to make that caliber. Mauser, of course, provided what the customer wanted.)

The horrible truth, though, is that the cost of making a milsurp rifle, even a good one, into the equivalent of a Remington 700 or Winchester 70 will almost certainly cost more that those excellent sporting rifles, unless you plan to do 75% of the work yourself.

Jim
__________________
Jim K
James K is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 07:50 AM   #17
Keg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,072
Thank yall for the input....The action is all that will be used....Til I figure out exactly what I wanna do..it can collect dust....I think I can always get my $100 dollars back for it..if I choose....But the action will probably be used on some kinda sporter..somewhere down the road....
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........
Keg is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 12:44 PM   #18
Paul B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,693
"I would be curious to know, after heat treating, after rebarreling, after bending the bolt handle, after adding an appropriate safety, (I like the 3 position M70), new trigger mechanism, drilling and tapping, new barrel, bluing, new stock, bedding, shaping the trigger guard, just how much you spent on the project.

Please come back and tell us when its done. "

I'm not the OP but all the work on my 1909 Argie ran $3,500 and change.
So what? I have EXACTLY what I wanted, a beautiflr rifle custom fit to me in the design and lines that I wanted. To be perfectly fronk. my gunsmith did cut a a break or two because he's been getting my work for years.
It's also th third build he's done for me were were not quite as expensive. Go to someone like David Miller where his customs start at $6,500 and rapidly go up ot Darcy Echols whose guns I believe start at $10,000 and go up from there. Perfection ain't cheap. If you want it your way, you gotta pay.
Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
Paul B. is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 01:47 PM   #19
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,133
Quote:
I'm not the OP but all the work on my 1909 Argie ran $3,500 and change.
So what? I have EXACTLY what I wanted, a beautiflr rifle custom fit to me in the design and lines that I wanted. To be perfectly fronk. my gunsmith did cut a a break or two because he's been getting my work for years.
It's also th third build he's done for me were were not quite as expensive. Go to someone like David Miller where his customs start at $6,500 and rapidly go up ot Darcy Echols whose guns I believe start at $10,000 and go up from there. Perfection ain't cheap. If you want it your way, you gotta pay.
Paul B.
Your rifle is looks wonderful, and thanks for letting us know what it costs to build a custom rifle.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 03:05 PM   #20
Savage99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Posts: 389
Fancy rifles like those pictured are neat to own and show off. Much depends on what you and your gun friends think about how much you paid and what you got.

It's only money as someone already said. However if it's more money than what you and yours say is ok then it's not going to be fun.

If I were to commission another custom centerfire hunting rifle it would not be on a 1909 Mauser. I have one and I have other good rifles.

As a kid I thought my 722 was cool. Well at least it was a gun.

When I saw my first M70 I knew the 722 was cheap looking and I saved up and ordered my first M70 in 1957. I still have it and use it (rebarreled).

I collected and shot them in matches and hunting.

Now I have enough and shop only for something interesting.
Savage99 is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 03:20 PM   #21
emcon5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 1999
Location: High Desert NV
Posts: 1,681
My opinion, sell your complete rifle, and find a barreled action, or a rifle that has already been molested.

Something like this:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=362567271
emcon5 is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 04:59 PM   #22
Keg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2011
Location: Freestone County, Texas
Posts: 1,072
Quote:
Now I have enough and shop only for something interesting.
Kind of my boat...I thought the custom mauser idea was interesting....


Quote:
My opinion, sell your complete rifle, and find a barreled action, or a rifle that has already been molested.

Something like this:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=362567271
Thanks..but no thanks....This one has already been molested....

This thread actually did'nt turn out liked I had hoped....I guess my fault..maybe I did'nt word it right....I was actually hoping for pics like Wyosmith posted and or different calibers that would work....Pics of your own Mauser rifles..etc....
__________________
Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........
Keg is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 07:03 PM   #23
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 3,810
I think your action will be good for about anything you want to do with it.A quality large ring 98 is a strong platform and smiths have built all manner of fine rifles on them for over 100 yrs.The 1909 Argentine is one of the prize actions to use.
In my experience,do not expect a typical 98 to have the whole action hardened.They spot hardened them.Locking lug recess,extraction cam,etc.,I have worked performing this spot hardening on parts using a really old induction machine.It works real good.

Try going to Lothar Walther's site.They sell threaded and chambered bbl s for 98's that are very nice,and quite a value.I do not recall if they are short or long chambered,but,iirc,they are long chambered,no reamer required,just a lathe and headspace gages.

Look at a Brownells action truing mandrel and bolt face lapping setup .You do not gave to buy these,they can be made,but the price is not too high.

Check to see the locking lugs bear well,do not pull back on the bolt handle to do this.Pressure on the bolt face is best.Myself,I hi-spot and stone a bit till I get a good bearing both sides,then I lap a little to finish.Magic Marker or cheap cold blue are your friend.

Easiest trigger/safety is a Timney with safety and a commercial bolt sleeve.

Nicer is a Gentry side-swing M-70 type..Let them fit it to your bolt.


Are you going wood,or synthetic for a stock? HiTech Specialties makes a nice 20 oz stock.Glass bedding will be necessary.


Before you start,look at the Montana Arms site,they make a M-70 repro,and look at a CZ action from Brownell's

Do your own thinking,then do it your way.
HiBC is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 08:25 PM   #24
steveNChunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2012
Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns
Posts: 1,405
Quote:
I was actually hoping for pics
Well here's the best I can do...

My beater 1944 model KAR98K in a Fajen walnut stock, sights stripped, bent bolt handle, modified safety lever, polished stock trigger/cocking piece, Leupold one-piece scope mount made to fit a Winchester Model 70, and el cheapo Bushnell Banner from Wal-Mart. Other than that its an all original German military Mauser. It's about the cheapest way I know of to get from mil-surp to sporter, but it shoots MOA all day long with Hornady or Privi ammo. So it earns its keep





By the way, total investment in this rifle including the scope is about $250.

I got the rifle in a trade for next to nothing, already in the sporter stock and bent bolt. I did the other little odds and ends myself, so that helped me keep the cost down. Rifles like that one have very low resale value because collectors don't want them and most other people want something newer and flashier. That works to the advantage of the people who know how good of a hunting rifle they can be.

Sporterizing old Mausers is like anything else, you can go as mild or wild as you want, just depends on how much you have to spend and how fancy you want it to be.
__________________
"I don't understand all that I know"

"I never said half the crap that people on the internet claim I said" - Abraham Lincoln

Last edited by steveNChunter; September 2, 2013 at 08:38 PM.
steveNChunter is offline  
Old September 2, 2013, 10:28 PM   #25
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 5,581
is a 1909 takedown with .25-06 and .35 Whelen. Not my rifle just an example what you can do when money is no object.


__________________
NRA Life Member
The Truth About Guns
taylorce1 is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14194 seconds with 8 queries