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Old September 3, 2013, 10:12 AM   #26
Constantine
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Quote:
Raising it to where sights are within view puts the gun in a weaker position for retention.

Agreed. I learned that from Paul Gomez. RIP
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Old September 3, 2013, 01:41 PM   #27
daddyo
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Again, what if the attacker is in position to attack the weapon?

Raising it to where sights are within view puts the gun in a weaker position for retention.

I prefer aimed fire or sight referenced fire, but it is not always practical.
Hitting from contact range isn't difficult to do consistently without a whole lot of practice. If shooting from the retention position is required, good hits can be achieved by even the most novice shooter, at least with my students anyway.

Be mindful of your weak hand when ever point shooting. Train a good restiing place for your weak hand. We use either the high knife block open hand out or the hand across the chest. Just be careful.
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Old September 3, 2013, 01:48 PM   #28
ClydeFrog
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This Means War....

A recent action comedy with "point" or "CQB type" shooting is This Means War.

www.imfdb.org
The main characters, highly trained CIA officers, use SIG P series pistols.

Clyde
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Old September 3, 2013, 02:30 PM   #29
Nanuk
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Hip shooting is effective at 1 yard or so, anything past that, unless you are a trick shooter you should bring the gun up to point should and point as Kraig says.
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Old September 3, 2013, 02:30 PM   #30
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daddyo, if they never train to shoot from hip or CQB, and if under stress most people revert to what they have (repetitively) trained, then odds are they won't consider retention but will push the gun toward the sighted fire position - even when that may be unwise.

So, even if they can score hits with minimal practice, there is still value in practicing.
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Old September 3, 2013, 02:46 PM   #31
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I am not trying to be negative on this whole thing, but please try an IDPA match at a local range. And you will see that aimed fire is a whole lot more effective than point shooting. You have to prove it for yourself.

I am what I consider a poor shot with handguns and even I can do 8 bad guys in 20 seconds even with hostages involved and ZERO points down (no misses, no hostages shot). 18 shots required on each stage. Someone that is really good can do it in about 12 seconds or less.

Try it both ways in a match, first point shooting and then try it as aimed fire and see what you do best.

Good luck
Jim
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Old September 3, 2013, 02:57 PM   #32
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Jim243, once again - I fully agree using a sight picture is more accurate. My concern is about those situations where the BG is at bad breath distance, and speed and retention are harder challenges than accuracy is.
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Old September 3, 2013, 03:01 PM   #33
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On a side note, sounds like your IDPA RO's aren't as twisted as ours. Ours set up courses of fire using swinging targets, swinging hostages, hallways with BGs and hostages behind doors... And for most of those, point shooting would probably not work so well.
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Old September 3, 2013, 03:04 PM   #34
James K
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I am not sure of what is meant by "hip shooting" (shooting at a hipster?) as I never saw or heard of anyone firing a gun held against his or her hip. At one time, I did a lot of shooting in which I held the gun at or a bit above my waist level, using the gun itself as a "pointing finger." I don't know if I can still do it, but at that time I could "roll" and bounce a can at about 25 feet, hitting it almost every shot, firing fast double action K-22). I did not really consider that practice for defensive shooting, just plain old fun. Still, I am pretty sure I could have put every shot in a chest area if necessary. I later did the same with a .38 and .357, but the fun was more expensive.

Not an ideal system if there is concern about weapon retention, but if the opponent is close enough to make that a problem, he is so close that any shots are or are close to being contact shots and the word "aiming" has no meaning.

Jim
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Old September 3, 2013, 03:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
On a side note, sounds like your IDPA RO's aren't as twisted as ours.
They are!! (LOL) The worst is BG behind hard cover. Poppers are no problem, but I hate swingers (I'm lucky to get one hit on them), movers are not too bad. We did a house clearing on one stage that I said "Oh what the hell" and dumped 3 mags on (LOL) in 35 seconds (good thing I did not get a procedural on that), now that was fun. My buddy said it looked like I was using a machine gun on that stage. (LOL)

Have fun, life's too short.
Jim
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Old September 3, 2013, 04:56 PM   #36
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Working on shooting from retention possition should be done at near contact distance. If one is in a situation of such nature, the shot from retention position is more of a get off of me move. If I am firing as such I do so with the gun in line to the center line of my body. One shot from retention position, as I am side stepping, and bringing the gun up for a COM shot.

Just remember that you are going to be held accountable for every shot you fire in a SD situation.
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Old September 3, 2013, 05:11 PM   #37
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This was done without aiming, the trigger guard was against my hip. 4" S&W Mod 15.





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Old September 4, 2013, 06:41 AM   #38
daddyo
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daddyo, if they never train to shoot from hip or CQB, and if under stress most people revert to what they have (repetitively) trained, then odds are they won't consider retention but will push the gun toward the sighted fire position - even when that may be unwise.

So, even if they can score hits with minimal practice, there is still value in practicing.
Normally I would agree but in this particular scenario I would believe otherwise. Before I ever began learning how to properly use a firearm for self defense, I didn't need to know that while fighting off a bad guy or drawing on someone at arms reach, I wasn't going to push my pistol out 21/2 feet on a bad guy standing 2 feet away. As I began to practice different scenario's with friends and coworkers, without prior training mind you, I automatically pulled the trigger the instant the guns muzzle was on the bad guy. One scenario was a bum rush from a holstered gun (kinda like a tueller drill). In my desperation to get that shot off, I shot from my side many of the times. Just a frantic attempt to drop the hammer before full contact was made which meant I lost. So I inadvertently shot from the hip so to speak. I didn't know gun retention was even a practiced tactic much less the benefits of it LOL. So I'm not so sure that if someone is being attacked at ultra close range, that they would revert back to the training and stretch those arms out exposing the firearm.

Having seen a few police shooting video's it seems the closer the threat the faster the trigger is pulled. Not in followup shots but from the draw/presentation.

I believe that your position is probably the wiser however. Better to have and not need.
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Old September 4, 2013, 12:22 PM   #39
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I've read that in many cases the first (and sometimes second) shot goes into the ground, due to extreme stress and sympathetic flexing of the trigger finger as the gun comes up. I could easily believe that.

Meanwhile, tried a bunch of comparison testing yesterday with a P7 PSP, shooting from 3 yards, one target with the gun pointed from just above belt level, the other with the gun pushed somewhat forward and just at the bottom edge of peripheral view.

Both targets had most rounds clustered along or near the vertical line of the spinal column. The one shot with gun in view had less vertical stringing, probably over twice as tight as the other. Most hits were in the (IDPA) -0 circle or just below it, in the top of that portion's -1.

The one shot from belt level had almost all hits in the -1 area of an IDPA target, with some in the lower half of the thoracic -0, and some in the lower -3.
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Old September 4, 2013, 12:34 PM   #40
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Rex Applegate taught and advocated for this technique. Not saying that is good or bad, only that it goes back a ways and isn't without its influential adherents.

My only issue with point shooting is that it's essentially useless at anything but contact range, particularly if the adversary is moving.
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Old September 4, 2013, 12:47 PM   #41
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See the newest Rangemaster newsletter for far more on point shooting.

Tom Givens explains a lot.

http://www.rangemaster.com/

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Old September 4, 2013, 02:28 PM   #42
Madcap_Magician
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I think you should train and practice on shooting from retention. I had to go to a police academy to learn, though.
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Old September 4, 2013, 03:05 PM   #43
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Williamsburg Hipsters....

If you hang out in Williamsburg in Brooklyn NY, you'll see a lot of "hipsters"

Don't get me wrong, I do not advocate "point" or "hip" shooting. It's cool if you are a legend like Bill Jordan or COL Applegate or Fitz Fitzgerald but for most gunners & license holders, use of the sights is ideal.

Many years ago, NYPD detective & pistol team member; Jim Cerillo was asked what he saw in a police shoot-out. Cerillo said; "I counted every serration in the front sight of my revolver."
James Cirello was a highly respected LE officer & became a US Customs instructor when he retired from the NYPD.
He & his other stake out squad members used pistols & DA revolvers, always training to shoot with sights.

Clyde
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Old September 4, 2013, 03:38 PM   #44
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A good two handed CQB pistol hold...is right in front of your chest about the level or your diaphragm, with the elbows folded against the side of the body, with the forearms slightly extended. You'll have to swivel your hips to achieve horizontal multi-directional shot angles.
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Old September 4, 2013, 03:56 PM   #45
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Erno86, sure it is.

However, I think that is usually taught for instances when one already has a gun drawn, and is moving about in a searching or clearing mode.

I don't think it is taught for drawing and firing when one is under immediate, very close attack. I could be mistaken. In those circumstances, a two handed hold may be preempted by the need to use the support hand for some other function (blocking, striking, grabbing, deflecting, pushing, etc).
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Old September 4, 2013, 05:22 PM   #46
Al Thompson
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MLeake,

Paul Gomez has a pretty good explanation of firing from retention (AKA count two of the 4 count draw).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5sK8TE1nq4
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Old September 4, 2013, 09:01 PM   #47
MLeake
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Al, thanks.

Note that in the video, he has the gun in one hand. His other arm is in an elbow strike posture that also keeps his weak hand well clear of the muzzle.
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Old September 5, 2013, 07:15 AM   #48
rrruger
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The reason that I am interested in point shooting is that my 60+ year old eyes can track a target pretty well until that gun sight comes into my line of sight. Then I start fighting the strong eye against the weak eye and my sight picture goes out the window. If I take my time, I sort things out pretty quickly and at 30 feet I consistently put 12 rounds in the 8-9 ring.
I want to keep both eyes on the target and hit what I actually see without having to think about it. I have seen the FBI training films where the average agent was achieving this at what looked to be 15-20 feet. They were hitting stationary and moving targets both. If it worked in 1940 it ought to work now?
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Old September 5, 2013, 07:43 AM   #49
MLeake
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If eyesight issues give you trouble with iron sights, then a laser might be a good investment.
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Old September 5, 2013, 09:06 AM   #50
daddyo
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Just need many many repetitions.
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