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Old August 28, 2013, 11:00 PM   #1
BerdanSS
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what caused these dings on my stock?

the stock on my Express double .50 was pristine until the last time I fired it. I noticed these when I was putting it in its case on the way home.



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Old August 28, 2013, 11:48 PM   #2
Bezoar
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since the damage is in the same spot, on either side of the stock...

ill bet you and the misses a nice lobster dinner that if you covered the hammers in inletting black, and spent a half hour cocking and releaseing each hammer, those spots would be colored black.

i once had a production sidelock, it had side to side wiggle when it moved. ive seen the same thing at the gunstore when i look at hammered side by side shotguns.
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Old August 29, 2013, 12:42 AM   #3
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here's the odd thing....both locks are rock solid tight. And pulling both hammers back with normal thumb pressure, they stop solidly 1/8" off the stock. Ive shot this rifle several times before without issue, but just noticed the gouges after the last range trip. I know the hammers have to be contacting the stock in some way...but I cant see how (even more)

Is there something wrong with the rifle that would cause this? and does it make it unsafe to shoot? Just fyi....normal load is either a patched .490 round ball with a lubed .10 ticking patch, or a pre lubed great plains bullet both over an 80 grain charge of 777 or regular pyrodex FFG equivalent. Priming with German hot musket caps.
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Old August 29, 2013, 06:07 AM   #4
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Just guessing here -

Do you fire the first barrel with the other hammer fully cocked, and do you always fire the same barrel first?

It appears to me that recoil from firing one barrel with the other hammer fully cocked causes the cocked hammer to impact the stock. I would also guess that you tend to fire the right barrel first, but not always, since the left side appears to be damaged more than the right side.

I'm suggesting that the hammers have gotten just a little bit looser over time and that the amount of wear isn't noticeable in the static condition, such that the impulsive recoil load is greater than you can apply with your hand and is capable of moving the hammer. Thus the hammer appears tight, but the greater recoil load can cause it to move just enough to hit the stock. And being impulsive in nature it happens quickly enough that the sear doesn't come out of the full cock notch.

Safe to fire? Yes.
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Old August 29, 2013, 06:43 AM   #5
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i would agree with Mykeal that the marks are made by the hammers .
As to why they are doing that , one would have to look at the gun to find out .
I would think though that if it was being cased by firing one side with the other side at full cock , the movement would be enough that you would have both barrels firing .
That much movement should , I would think , be enough to trip the lock from the full cock notch if the locks are tight as you have said .

Now it could do it if there is forward and back play in the cock . IE the tumblers neck is starting to wear and thus let the hammer move back and forth under recoil but not so as to have that recoil actually move the tumbler .

The other thing that could cause this is blow back . Is the gun cocking to the ½ or full cock after being fired . If so then now that’s not safe as it will cause damage to the sear and tumbler . Over time it also can get so bad it can snap the cock right off the lock as it allows the cock to travel to fare back when its subject to pressure from the main charge
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Old August 29, 2013, 06:47 AM   #6
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PS .
the other thing that could be the issue is that you have over tightend the lock into the mortice . from your photos it loock as if the back of the lock maybe to tight and thus changing the angle of the lock .
this would also cause the hammer to contact the mortice when you cock it back to hard .
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Old August 29, 2013, 09:58 AM   #7
Old Stony
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I would guess you have over tightened the locks and drawn the rear in too far. I have seen similar things happen when you have locks that have more than one cross screw. You might have to put a small spacer or bedding compound around the rear area that contacts the inside of the lock at this point.
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Old August 29, 2013, 11:49 AM   #8
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Hammers on blow-back

As others have stated, it's the hammers leaving their mark. If you notice and take time to check, the hammers are clearly leaving their print, on the stock and looks to me to be coming in at about a 45Deg. angle. I also believe it is happening on blow-back. .....

Now, I know you mentioned that you have check the tightness of the lock-plates. By chance, have you pulled the locks and checked the tightness of the "Bridles"? These can work loose and allow the hammers to wobble side to side. Keep checking and I'm sure you will find the problem, in good order.

Berdan, I went back for a second look and it seems to me that the back and of the lock-plate is really recessed into the stock, in this area. It's not even flush. Are these wood screws or machine screws. are both sides, the same way? I can't tell.

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Last edited by Pahoo; August 29, 2013 at 12:04 PM.
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Old August 29, 2013, 03:24 PM   #9
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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A stock design that doesn't fit its hammers application.
I would venture to say here a prime example of a gun manufacture that doesn't turn its stocks in-house. If they did. You wouldn't see this design flaw or defect. Now you know why Captchee's rifles are a thing of beauty. His stocks are turned in-house. I also hear his quality control is outstanding also.



Post Script: Hey Cap because of this post. Will it get me a discount (-%) when I place my order with you?_
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Old August 29, 2013, 03:38 PM   #10
maillemaker
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Clearly caused by the hammer, the question is, when you cock the hammers do they touch the stock?

If not, it is possible that you are getting blow-back through the nipple that is blasting the hammers back into full-cock position. This can happen in worn or incorrectly designed nipples.

But if this were the case, you should find your hammer(s) recocked after you fire the gun.

Is that happening?

Steve
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Old August 29, 2013, 05:26 PM   #11
Captchee
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Quote:
Post Script: Hey Cap because of this post. Will it get me a discount (-%) when I place my order with you?_
LOL ahh no lol . i do however gibe 10% discounts on labor to TMA members .
the thing about that , the more the gun costs , the bigger the discount .
so 500.00 in labor gets you only 50 bucks , but 1000.00 in labor , that gets you a 100.00 LOL .
thank you for the kind words though .

Looking at the photos again this afternoon , what ever is happening , the cock is traveling way , to far back IMO . It doesn’t look as if the relief in the stock is wrong for the locks . If it were , these would have to be different locks then what the gun originally came with or at least different hammers that were not properly fit . That however doesn’t look to be the case . The contact point is just way to far back on the mortise .
Now again this is all speculation as its real hard to be 100% sure without looking at the gun . But it looks like the back of the lock is to tight and has pulled the back of the lock in ..
That back screw head should be a wood screw not the through bolt that joins the 2 locks . If it is a through bolt then its IMO a bad place to put it as it would warp and twist the locks if over tightened .
But even then that’s only part of the problem

Because of the depth of the crushing that’s showing there is another consideration that could be happening .
Lets say the locks are to tight . What this then also does is cause parts inside the lock to drag and thus not work properly . So in that area there is also a sear spring . If its dragging then it will also cause the sear not to work properly . So what then happens is the sear will not engage the full cock consistently . This makes the shooter over cock the lock ad causes the hammer to drag on the stock .

Now how can one over cock the lock . Well if the tumbler is not bridled , then there is a good chance that it also does not have a forward stall . To get around that , manufactures used the hammer to stall the hammers forward travel . IE the hammer will be notched out so that it strikes the top of the lock plate .
Such locks also normally do not carry a stirrup but rely on the main spring to ride on a tumbler shoe . Thus they allow you to cock the lock back to the point where the main spring compression stops the lock from being cocked back farther . That normally doesn’t happen tell well after the full cock notch .

Now if the shooter is finding the hammer at the full or ½ cock after firing , then he is getting blow back .
Blow back is not good with a tumbler and sear type ignition . doesn’t mater if it’s a rifle , shot gun or a revolver like a colt . don’t let anyone tell you otherwise .
The reason its not good is that its near impossible to work out the blowback so as to have the sear simply slide into the notch . What happens is that the blow back drives the hammer back to a given point . The main spring then takes over and drives the hammer forward . The sear then slams into the notch on the tumbler . The result is that very quickly you eather end up breaking the nose of the sear OR breaking the tumbler notch .
This isn’t just cause by a worn or drilled out nipple . Its also can be caused by a weak main spring not resisting the back pressure properly ,that’s being vented from even a good nipple .
The main spring going weak is a common problem with many Spanish locks like those used on CVA and traditions ..
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Old August 29, 2013, 10:14 PM   #12
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Okay, I'm going to try and answer all questions at once...

This rifle was purchased for me by my lovely young wife. Purchased from the original owner that had only fired it a handful of times, the rest of it's life was spent in his safe.


I have never removed, tightened or in any other fashion touched the lock plates or screws.

I have never disassembled the rifle farther than taking the barrels off to clean.

I have never cocked both hammers at once when firing.

I have never loaded more than one barrel at a time.

I do tend to shoot the right barrel more but I do alternate.

the hammers will not touch the stock no matter how hard you pull them back by hand.

the locks have both front and rear cross screws, through the left lock plate into the right, also three cross pins. both front and rear screws are machine screws.

I have never noticed either hammer at any position other than resting on the nipple after firing either barrel.

Both nipples are unaltered / tampered with, factory CVA Musket nipples that were installed out of the box brand new right in front of me.

The rear of the left lock plate does sit deeper into the mortise than the right. The right side is almost flush. The left rear sits MAYBE the width of a standard business card below the surface of the mortise

The left trigger (side where the gouge is worse) feels different than the right. It has some creep to it and I can hear something creaking when it's pulled with the hammer cocked or un-cocked.
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Old August 30, 2013, 04:28 AM   #13
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Doesn't appear your doing anything wrong. To bad you couldn't have someone film it when being fired with one of those new I phone's app's. Than you could see if you had hammer bounce. Otherwise its a most unusual situation you have going on. I wonder if you could shim both locks out a little from their mortice. See if that wouldn't help. Otherwise consider using a X-Acto-knife to indent that part of the mortice being damaged. Honestly I don't see any other way to handle such a problem other than the two ways I've mentioned.
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Old August 30, 2013, 06:53 AM   #14
Captchee
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well i would submit this .
if all you say is true , then you would not have the marks on your stock .
it can be no other way .

those marks are IMO being made by hammer being over cocked
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Old August 30, 2013, 08:16 AM   #15
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So, by hand, you cannot pull the hammers back far enough to touch wood. Can you pull the hammers back further if you keep pressure on the trigger?
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Old August 30, 2013, 10:39 AM   #16
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The hammers may come back farther after the sear is released when you pull the trigger than they do by simply pulling on them when you cock the gun. Muzzle loaders will sometimes cock themselves after being fired by the gases coming back out through the nipple. Try cocking, pulling the trigger, holding the trigger back while cocking as far as you can. It may touch then.
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Old August 30, 2013, 11:44 AM   #17
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^^^ Good explanation of what I was getting at. If you are holding the trigger back long after you fire the shot, and the gas is enough to re-cock the hammer(s), your hammer could be doing a double hit without you even noticing it. That sort of momentum could push the hammers back and mar the wood. That gun didn't come with musket nipples from the factory, did it?
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Old August 30, 2013, 01:35 PM   #18
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Good call !!

Quote:
So, by hand, you cannot pull the hammers back far enough to touch wood. Can you pull the hammers back further if you keep pressure on the trigger?
Well then, another question to answer and we pretty much all agree that the hammers are causing the dings. I think that noelf2 has made a logical observation and now I have to back and check my locks as well. .....

Check it and;
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Last edited by Pahoo; August 30, 2013 at 07:42 PM.
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Old August 30, 2013, 05:23 PM   #19
Captchee
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Quote:
^^^ Good explanation of what I was getting at. If you are holding the trigger back long after you fire the shot, and the gas is enough to re-cock the hammer(s), your hammer could be doing a double hit without you even noticing it. That sort of momentum could push the hammers back and mar the wood
yep . thats why a lock that doesn’t have a tumbler fly , does not catch the 1/2 cock . simply put , the human reaction time isnt fast enough to let the pressure of the trigger fast enough for the sear to catch the half cock notch .
But if one had blow back happening and was continuing to hold the trigger back , then yes the hammer would fall back to the nipple ..
Guns with set triggers don’t work that way un less the triggers are set up as to be fired using either trigger . If the triggers are set , and you have blow back that great enough to bring the hammer back to the ½ cock , it will catch the notch . The acception is that if the blow back is great enough to bring the hammer back to just before the full and enough to engage the fly , then they fly will interrupt the ½ cock . Thus you can also have a double fall .
That however should not be the case with this SXS .
The locks I would think would be simple tumblers with no flier and possibly no sear bridles


again blow back isnt just about the nipples . its can also be about the main springs or both
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Old August 30, 2013, 08:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
I have never removed, tightened or in any other fashion touched the lock plates or screws.
Now would be a great time to start.

Quote:
the hammers will not touch the stock no matter how hard you pull them back by hand.
They will, you just aren't pulling hard enough.

Quote:
I have never noticed either hammer at any position other than resting on the nipple after firing either barrel.
As others have explained, you won't.

Quote:
Both nipples are unaltered / tampered with, factory CVA Musket

nipples that were installed out of the box brand new right in front of me.
Did you by chance also watch those flash cups being installed at the same time?

Quote:
The left trigger (side where the gouge is worse) feels different than the right. It has some creep to it and I can hear something creaking when it's pulled with the hammer cocked or un-cocked.
Let's narrow down the creaking first. Start by removing both locks and then working the trigger without the locks installed, Does it creak? If not, then take the left lock into your hand and cock it to full. Now gently pull it a little further back and hold it there while working the shear bar. Is it creaking yet?

Also while you have the lock in your hand, you can adjust the set screw in the tumbler to eliminate the creep you described.

My uneducated guess from clear across the internet is that the larger flash hole in the musket nipples combined with narrow flash cups are directing all that gas into your hammer cups and causing the symptoms describe in the previous responses.

If you continue shooting it like this you will likely suffer a broken main spring as well possible damage to the shear tip by the set screw in tumbler scraping
over the shear tip.
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Old August 30, 2013, 08:55 PM   #21
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I guess i forgot to say that if you don't hear the creaking in either case above, it is probably the sound of the trigger blade rubbing the shear bar. you can simply smooth out the mating surfaces with a stone. I find that the fish hook sharpeners sold at walmart work about as good as anything.

Last edited by Mr.Guido; August 31, 2013 at 07:17 AM.
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Old August 31, 2013, 08:45 AM   #22
Captchee
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I would agree that now is a good time to remove the locks . Check them over just as Guido stated . Look at the inside of the lock plate around where the tumbler turns , around the main spring and around the sear for scratches. If there is any , that means the part is dragging . Let me also say that its not uncommon to find such marks on CVA locks . The tolerances are low and the locks often are soft . Its not uncommon to find them even when brand new .
I would also add that if the creaking sound isn’t there with the lock out . Your probably going to find that the sound is coming from the parts rubbing inside the lock mortise.

As was pointed out . It does appear the locks have Been over tightened at one time or another. When you put it back together , the bolt should be snug , NOT really heavily tightened down . As I said before if you tighten that rear bolt down to tight you will warp the lock plate

Guido also makes a good point about the musket caps . Myself I have never seen a CVA SXS that came with musket nipples . All the ones I have seen came with a standard #11 nipple . So I have to wonder why those are there . Same goes with the flash cups .
So Guido could very well be dead on with his reasoning that the blowback could be from the musket nipples
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Old August 31, 2013, 11:54 AM   #23
BerdanSS
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Mr.Guido

Believe me sir when I say pulling any harder on the hammers without the triggers pulled would result in breaking them....

I did try though, as advised to hold the trigger back. And yes pulling the triggers at full cock, holding them down then pulling the hammers back they will contact the stock. The split second blowback of the hammers with the trigger still held after firing makes complete sense to me.

The flash cups were on it when I got it. I've never used them before on any other rifle of mine, and don't really care for the look of them. I originally took them off, but when I had the nipples replaced, I had the guy put them back on for the heck of it. I've got some inletting black, I'll take them off and see what happens.

Every picture of these I see (except the .58 caliber ones.) are #11s. Should I get #11 nipples and swap out the muskets? It had musket nipples on it when my wife bought it for me, They were kinda flatted out from what looked like dry firing which is why I got new ones.
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Old August 31, 2013, 12:32 PM   #24
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FWIW my Pedersoli 12 gauge blows the hammers back to half cock with 100 grains of powder and a .69 patched ball.
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Old August 31, 2013, 01:26 PM   #25
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Entirely your Call !!!

Quote:
Should I get #11 nipples and swap out the muskets?
That is entirely a matter of choice. If you have an ignition problem with the 11's, then go back to the Muskets. Flash cups are also a matter of personal choice. If you understand their function, You might see the benefit. We use to see these all the time but only on drum & nipple. Snails don't need them. One "possible" problem, I might see, is fitting a musket primer, inside a small flash cup. .....

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