The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 28, 2013, 10:42 PM   #1
Deja vu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2010
Location: Border of Idaho & Montana
Posts: 2,181
best 410 rounds for dove?

One of my sons recently finished his hunters safety and really wants to shoot some doves. He wants to use his shotgun (Winchester 500e)

I know the 410 is not a great gun to start hunting with but its what he has. He does not like shooting my 12ga shotguns. He has practiced quite a bit and can shoot clay with his 410 so may be it will work.

Any way what do you think the best rounds for Doves would be? We may also go after Quayle and Pheasants later so advise on those would be apricated as well.
__________________
Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple
Deja vu is offline  
Old August 28, 2013, 11:30 PM   #2
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
For me... If I am in a small field that really only presents mainly short shots, I like the 8 but 9 is the cats meow... In larger fields, the smaller pellets lose velocity faster so i go 7 1/2...

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old August 29, 2013, 12:49 AM   #3
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,488
.410

I cut my teeth on the .410, like many I suppose. It really is not a good beginners gun though, as there is just not much payload or resultant pattern to work with........but..............If one must, consider ........

I'd not even fool with the 2.75" shell, but by all means, stay with the 3 incher.
And, do not fall for the tendency to use larger shot. To get any semblance of a useful pattern, I would not go larger than # 7-1/2 shot. That means 6's, are out and anything bigger too.

For some reason the bulk stores seem to stock .410 in larger shot sizes, likely I guess mirroring they're larger bore buys. Don't buy'em.

All that said, a few years back I ran into a close out on .410/2.75 shell with #8 shot. Bought the lot, and it proved about as useful on rabbits in front of beagles as my standard 3"/ #7-1/2 load. But that is very specific use, often on stationary, easy to hit bunnies.
bamaranger is offline  
Old August 29, 2013, 08:17 AM   #4
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS
Posts: 5,097
A .410 should NEVER be used as a starter wing shooting gun. It is really only effective at flying birds in the hands of an expert. Get the kid a 20ga.
Doyle is offline  
Old August 29, 2013, 08:49 AM   #5
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Doyle, If he has been using the gun for hitting clays than he may do well...
From 8 to 12 or older, all I had was a .410 bolt gun and I now see the skills it forced me to gain...

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old August 29, 2013, 10:05 AM   #6
Doyle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Starkville, MS
Posts: 5,097
Brent, it may cause some shooters to get better at their skill but it will cause more (especially kids) to get frustrated and want to give up.

With the high cost of .410 ammo these days, there really isn't any reason to choose it over a 20ga.
Doyle is offline  
Old August 29, 2013, 10:34 AM   #7
BumbleBug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2013
Location: Near Heart of Texas
Posts: 540
Use heavy enough shot...

My suggestion is to use heavy shot. Due to the small amount of BB's there is a tendency to use #8's or #9's. In the .410 these are cripplers on doves. Use #7-1/2 at least, or even #6 is better. Learned this the hard way, but I do enjoy shooting doves with a .410!!!

...bug
BumbleBug is online now  
Old August 29, 2013, 12:31 PM   #8
Deja vu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2010
Location: Border of Idaho & Montana
Posts: 2,181
Quote:
Brent, it may cause some shooters to get better at their skill but it will cause more (especially kids) to get frustrated and want to give up.

With the high cost of .410 ammo these days, there really isn't any reason to choose it over a 20ga.
I agree that the 410 should be used more by experts. The thing is all my shot guns are 12ga and he is not big enough to handle those. Unfortunately at this time a 20ga is not in the budget. Give him a few years and he will be fine with a 12.

yes he does shoot clay with the 410 and does pretty good for a 12 year old.
__________________
Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple
Deja vu is offline  
Old August 29, 2013, 01:34 PM   #9
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,841
got both sides of the shot issue here, some say use bigger shot, others say there isn't enough pellets, so use smaller shot.

7 1/2 or 8s are dove loads. My experience is that they do fine within their range. Going to the .410 means its harder to put enough pellets on the target, NOT that the pellets are any less effective. One or two #8s from a 12ga are exactly the same as one or two #8s from a .410 in my experience.

Solid hit with the center of the shot column always works, .410 or 12ga. The one real difference is that with a .410 there is sometimes something left.

Seriously, its the difficulty hitting moving targets that makes the .410 an "experts gun". If your boy is shooting clays and doing acceptably well, he should do about the same on live birds, once he adjusts to they way they behave.

You might consider finding some very light 12ga loads (trap loads?) and have him try them when he is ready (and he will be ready before you know it).

.410 shells in the larger shot sizes are meant for ground shooting of pests and small game more than they are for wingshooting larger birds. One can do it, but the difficulty often turns off beginners. Or turns them off to the .410, at any rate.

at 14, I got the use of a .410, and my first outing wasted an entire box of shells without a single hit, other than the one fencepost I shot (which, fortunately wasn't moving). The next time, I borrowed my Grandfather's 12ga double, and came back with some birds, and a split lip! The time after that, I came back with just some birds. Have used 12ga ever since. I have a couple of .410s (one bolt action, and a T/C Contender pistol), but don't use them for wingshooting. Fine pest guns though.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 29, 2013, 05:14 PM   #10
BumbleBug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2013
Location: Near Heart of Texas
Posts: 540
Be sure to buy your son at least 1 box of #6's to try. He'll be a happier hunter!

...bug
BumbleBug is online now  
Old August 29, 2013, 05:29 PM   #11
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
In this heat at this time of year, 7.5 or 8 will do just fine IF he can work the gun properly. To that end, try some of both lengths - 2.75 and 3" and see what works best at the pattern plate at 25 yards - that is the nominal testing distance for 410, not 40 yards. If he can swing the gun and hit some clays, and he stays to the 25 yard MAX distance, he should be OK. If you access to the field ahead of time and you know where he will be stationed, you might put a few survey stakes with a little orange ribbon at 25 yard distances in a semicircular pattern so he knows not to shoot at anything past those stakes - should help keep the frustration level down

Have fun and I hope he limits out
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old August 30, 2013, 12:24 AM   #12
.300 Weatherby Mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Posts: 1,777
3" .410 loads are too slow... I pick my shots and put the birds down with 7.5 & 8... You do not need 6s...

These Kill doves in the hands of an experienced shooter...

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/160...-1-2-oz-8-shot

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/290...-1-2-oz-8-shot
.300 Weatherby Mag is offline  
Old August 30, 2013, 12:42 AM   #13
BumbleBug
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2013
Location: Near Heart of Texas
Posts: 540
Use 3" shells. Number 8's are cripplers in the .410. Be sure to buy your son at least 1 box of #6's to try. He'll be a happier hunter!

...bug
BumbleBug is online now  
Old August 30, 2013, 01:19 AM   #14
.300 Weatherby Mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Posts: 1,777
Quote:
Use 3" shells. Number 8's are cripplers in the .410


Velocity of most 3" game loads is 1140.. The loads I shoot are 1300 FPS...

Out my 870 with a full choke.. It kills them stone dead when I shoot them at 15-25 yards.... If I need to shoot them farther away than that I take out a bigger gun... I can hit them at a greater distances but then I get cripples...

A .410 is never a wise choice for a beginner, but sometimes there's no other option... I agree with the fact that its an experts gun...

Last edited by .300 Weatherby Mag; August 30, 2013 at 01:57 AM.
.300 Weatherby Mag is offline  
Old August 30, 2013, 03:55 AM   #15
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,356
.410s

I like .410s. I can do nicely with a .410 and backyard clays. Birds are another matter entirely. Breaking a clay pigeon is not the same as killing a bird. You cannot wound or cripple a clay.
Note: .410s come in two shell lengths: 2.5 inches and 3 inches. There are, to my knowledge no 2.75 inch .410s.
The 2.5 inch loads are one half ounce pretty much at 1200-1250 fps across the board.
The three inch loads are more variable. Winchester sells 3 inch loads that push 3/4 ounce of shot at 1100 fps. That is as much shot as a number of 20 gauge loads.
Quote:
3" .410 loads are too slow
Three inch loads have 90% of the velocity of a 2.5 inch and 50% more shot.
Pattern the gun at 25 yards with the shot sizes mentioned. Get a sense of which load gives the most uniform pattern at that yardage. Then go hunting.
Pete
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ...
NRA Life Member

Last edited by darkgael; August 30, 2013 at 04:20 AM.
darkgael is offline  
Old August 30, 2013, 05:14 AM   #16
bob the dinosaur
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2013
Posts: 6
Be advised, if you go after Quayle, the secret service may want to talk to you.
bob the dinosaur is offline  
Old August 30, 2013, 08:22 AM   #17
.300 Weatherby Mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2008
Posts: 1,777
Quote:
That is as much shot as a number of 20 gauge loads.
Most 2 3/4" 20 gauge loads are 7/8 oz with 1 oz being an option as well... While most of your 28 gauge loads are 3/4 oz...
.300 Weatherby Mag is offline  
Old August 30, 2013, 02:05 PM   #18
darkgael
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2006
Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania.
Posts: 4,356
Yep.

Quote:
Most 2 3/4" 20 gauge loads are 7/8 oz with 1 oz being an option as well... While most of your 28 gauge loads are 3/4 oz...
True enough. That 28 gauge bears some thought....it'd be a nice gun for a youngster (or an oldster).
Pete
__________________
“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ...
NRA Life Member
darkgael is offline  
Old August 30, 2013, 03:46 PM   #19
BigD_in_FL
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: The "Gunshine State"
Posts: 1,981
Many consider the 28 to be the ideal dove and quail bore size, ammo is easily carried afield, guns are light but not too light normally, recoil is easily tamed - all in all it is seeing a resurgence.

The 28 gauge society is worth checking out:
http://28gasociety.46.forumer.com/index.php

Good folks with lots of knowledge

Last edited by BigD_in_FL; September 1, 2013 at 07:15 PM.
BigD_in_FL is offline  
Old September 1, 2013, 05:58 PM   #20
LSnSC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2010
Posts: 514
Dove season opens tomorrow here in SC, and while there are better choices than the 410 for dove shooting, a ton of kids will be heading afield and killing doves with them. Get him some 6's, 7.5's, or 8's and enjoy you day afield together. If he gets a few birds it will be a bonus. Most kids Ive been around enjoy going and getting to shoot the gun, killing doves is secondary. If he likes it, move him up to a bigger bore when he can handle it.
LSnSC is offline  
Old September 16, 2013, 06:07 PM   #21
publius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Location: Mississippi/Texas
Posts: 2,466
I completely disagree with some that a .410 isn't a good beginners gun. I started with a single .410 and it made me a good shot, you know you only have one shot and you know you can't take long shots. I like 7 1/2's in 3".
__________________
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
publius is offline  
Old September 16, 2013, 08:30 PM   #22
CurlyQ.Howard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2012
Posts: 280
I did it (doves, pheasants, cottontails) with a single shot .410 well over 50 years ago, but I don't see why a kid couldn't do it today too. I'd use a 3" shell loaded with 7.5 shot.
CurlyQ.Howard is offline  
Old September 18, 2013, 01:06 AM   #23
340 Weatherby
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 2012
Posts: 133
15 years of dove shooting in Mexico taught me a lot about .410's and effective loads. We had a lot of birds and a lot of opportunity to experiment. What my Son said about the three inch shells is true, and they aren't necessary at all. Would you guys go hunt any other bird with a shell under 1200 FPS. I've settled on the sporting clays loads because they just flat out work for me. Everybody is welcome to their own opinion of course. And what works in a small sunflower field on private property, back east, isn't the same as shooting somewhere where Dove hunting is a popular sport. The birds are going to be higher, generally and a lot more wary. My .410 Citori is choked IC and Modified and has killed literally hundreds of dove. One thing I might caution you on is giving a kid a .410 single shot and sending him out into a Dove field is pretty tough. He may get frustrated in a big hurry. I know because it happened to me. Your looking to have a hunting partner for life so give him a reasonable chance. A twenty gauge youth model pump is a cheap investment if your looking to have a future hunting buddy. If you think I'm wrong I suggest you shoot that single shot on opening day and see how you do. A twenty-eight is really the ticket for a kid, but the price of guns and shells put it out of reach
340 Weatherby is offline  
Old September 18, 2013, 11:31 PM   #24
Sheikyourbootie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2010
Posts: 363
A 410 is what I learned on. It's a challenge, but it is still fun to shoot...sometimes I break it out just for nostalgia.

Around here, 410 shells are scarce at wally world, and you sometimes just have to shoot whatever shot size you can get.

Sheikyourbootie is offline  
Old September 19, 2013, 10:28 AM   #25
Deja vu
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2010
Location: Border of Idaho & Montana
Posts: 2,181
So I took my boy out hunting today (for ring neck eurasian doves, they can be hunting year round, morning dove season starts the 30th here.) . He had the pump 410 and I carried my 870 12ga.

the first dove we saw he pulled up on it and shot and missed. He then shot again and missed again. He fired a 3rd time (the dove was well out of range at this point) and missed.

I felt bad and was trying to think of a way I could get a 20ga. But every one i know in that area that hunts uses a 12. We walked for a while and then my son asks me if I brought him any more ammo.

He only brought the 3 rounds. We are a very long way from home so it is not like I can quickly drive back to the home and pick up the box. I have to say I am very proud. I stayed calm the entire time. We walk back to the car and drive to town. When I get to Wall-Mart the only load they have is #4 buckshot "handgun" ammo. I bought it.

We went out hunting again and we scare up 2 doves with in 5 min of starting again. I shoulder my gun and waited for my son to fire. 2 shots and two dead doves. I did not have to fire.

We walked around a while longer and never say any more doves but did see a Coyote. I ask my son if we should shoot it and he made me proud. He said that it was too far away and to shoot it with a shotgun would be unethical. (it was about 100 yards away). I tousled his hair and told him I am proud of him.

I had a lots of fun and he did too. He is excited to go next week end. My father will be going with us as well. It will be a great trip even if we don't get any thing.

When we got home I showed him how to breast the doves. They where a little messed up from the buck shot but they where my sons first kills so they tasted mighty fine anyway. Fried them and served with some potatoes and corn grown in our garden.
__________________
Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 25 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple

Last edited by Deja vu; September 19, 2013 at 10:41 AM.
Deja vu is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12366 seconds with 7 queries