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Old August 26, 2013, 12:34 PM   #1
MLeake
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Two overweight, middle aged guys on retention, disarms, and basic defenses

https://plus.google.com/photos/11019...KOQ872Rrf3ZjwE

We had discussed the issue of drawing while being attacked, or of dealing with impact and cutting weapons a week or two ago (and many times before). I had mentioned that a couple of us would try to put together some short, basic videos.

Had a get-together last weekend with some buddies, to include TFL's Sixer. He shot with us, but had to bail for the video portion.

Buddy from out of town shot the video via smart phone, so quality is iffy; blame me for not having a better camera, and for not having better editing software.

I'm the one talking. The other guy is a former army, current corrections officer type.

Regards,

M

Edit: Video is pretty small, but you can use the icon at lower right to enter full-screen mode. Then it won't be small, just grainy.

Sorry about the Google+ nonsense... Picasa used to be much simpler.

Last edited by MLeake; August 26, 2013 at 12:48 PM.
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Old August 26, 2013, 03:38 PM   #2
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pretty cool stuff. How long with this be up?
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Old August 26, 2013, 05:04 PM   #3
MLeake
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I had no immediate plans to take it down.

We may put up some better quality stuff at a later date.
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Old August 26, 2013, 05:17 PM   #4
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Good job MLeake. I would much rather go against a young guy who thinks he is eight feet tall and bullet proof, than an older guy with some training who knows he is not.
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Old August 27, 2013, 12:01 PM   #5
MLeake
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The thing of it is, while there are no guarantees in life, there are some very basic movements that can really improve one's odds. They don't require one to be young, strong, or an athlete - though all of those factors could be useful.
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Old August 27, 2013, 01:50 PM   #6
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Great videos! There are so many "simple" techniques and movements that could save your skin. Some of these should be required learning... especially if you carry a firearm.

Good stuff!
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Old August 27, 2013, 02:24 PM   #7
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Good stuff, some of the moves remind me of my daughter's Aikido classes.
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Old August 27, 2013, 03:50 PM   #8
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Awesome share.

Definitely useful techniques to practice with.

The knife is something people encounter more often than what many think.

Thanks for the share!
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Old August 28, 2013, 06:07 AM   #9
daddyo
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Grasping hands filled with knives and guns is extremely difficult to do without getting cut or shot, on someone who is willing to kill you and prepared for violence.

We used to use unloaded real guns back in my retarded days and the hammer was dropped on me many times just by them bending the wrist and pulling the trigger. Same with the knife only cuts not shot. (knife was wooden)

That said the video's were very nice. You make it look easy. Can you give your personal success percentages (give or take) so that I may compare to mine to see if it was me or just the nature of the beast.......in full speed mode.
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Old August 28, 2013, 08:35 AM   #10
MLeake
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daddyo, it was probably not obvious due to poor video quality, but the first part of most moves was getting off the line. In other words, before any attempt at a grab is made, the body is moved out of the way of the muzzle or knife point.

Additionally, the hand and arm that will be primary on the grab is initially used to deflect the weapon to the opposite side from the one the body moves to. There may be exceptions, but this is a general rule.

If you start the drill with the gun drawn and pointed at you, you are starting too late. You may not have a better option, but odds go way down.

Of course, there are counter-counters available to the attacker.

As far as percentages, in actual cases I have been fortunate enough not to have to fend off a weapon. A friend and dojo mentor has, and last I knew he was three for three - and the would-be shooters ended up with broken arms or wrists. (He is a narcotics cop who specializes in street buys.)

Another guy who had started training at the dojo where I started learning this stuff did so as a result of having been shivved in the shoulder. He was a CO, and when the inmate came at him he froze. Other COs had to swarm the guy. A few months after the new guy started, he was supervising a road gang, and one of the trustee workers attacked him with a bush axe. The CO employed a sword takeaway / hip throw combo, and both took the bush axe and threw the attacker on his head, resulting in a KO.

Were those results guaranteed? No, not by any means. Was the CO massively skilled at that point? No, though he had been training 2 hrs a night, 4 hrs a week for about 12 weeks when the bush axe attack occurred.

So, he had some skills, but most importantly - unlike what happened in the shiv attack - he did not freeze.
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Old August 28, 2013, 08:43 AM   #11
MLeake
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daddyo, another point is that I generally do not directly target the weapon hand, in the first move - instead I try to contact the forearm near the wrist. It is a bigger target, the timing is easier, and it minimizes the chances of putting my hand in front of a muzzle or on a knife point or edge.

Once my hand makes contact with the arm, I slide it by feel to appropriate points on wrist and hand to gain max control and leverage.

This happens quickly, and in synch with overall body movement.
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Old September 3, 2013, 07:06 AM   #12
daddyo
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What stops the bad guy from bending his wrist and cutting your grasping hand or shooting you?

When my forearm is grabbed I am able to bend my wrist sharply and pull the trigger. Unless the off line movement is to my outside, I can easily fire at a 90 degree angle.

With a knife, I lose most of my power when my wrist is bent but there is still sufficient power to make a nasty cut.
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Old September 3, 2013, 08:12 AM   #13
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What typically happens is that there is relative movement; positions are not static, and the attacker is taken off balance. His ability to apply force is drastically reduced, because when he is off balance any application of force he applies tends to push himself more off balance.

Additionally, while initial contact is made on the arm, the contacting hand typically slides to a control position on the hand and wrist very quickly. The attacker then has a leverage disadvantage, because the defender uses the attacker's joint as a fulcrum (typically hooking the little finger in the crease of the wrist) and lever (the diagonal length of the main part of the attacker's hand).

Next, the defender applies force via lower body and core, keeping his hands near his own center front, while levering the attacker's weapon arm away from the attacker's center.

Done properly, the attacker is off balance, and his hand and weapon are in a position where the attacker has very little leverage.
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Old September 4, 2013, 06:52 AM   #14
daddyo
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Totally agree with the diminished ability to apply force when off balanced. What I'm talking about is the simple act of bending my wrist and pulling the trigger.

Say we are face to face. My gun is in my right hand. You grab my right forearm while moving in and to your right getting off the line of fire. From this position I am able to bend my wrist and shoot myself in the left arm with ease. If you are in that region, which you will be if you have moved in the above direction to gain control of my right arm, you are in that arc.

Next time you guys practice see if either of you can bend the wrist and fire before control of the wrist is secured. I would be curious to see if this is possible.
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Old September 4, 2013, 12:12 PM   #15
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daddyo,

If you know the disarm is coming, and have training, there are multiple counters.

If a person does not expect a disarm attempt, and/or does not have training, then your suggested tactic a) rarely is attempted and b) unless the attacker is incredibly quick, does not tend to work well.

Note that if I go to the inside, I simultaneously (usually) deflect the gun arm downward. Note also that I prefer weak-side (away from whichever way his pelvis is oriented, nothing to do with right or left handedness), because it makes it that much harder for a person to simply bend a wrist. Weakside may not be available - due to barriers or other bad guys to that side, or possibly to my weight being distributed initially in a way that makes movement to that side a losing prospect.

Edit: Experiencing it would probably be more convincing than hearing or reading about it. Are you anywhere near KC?
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Old September 5, 2013, 09:10 AM   #16
daddyo
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No Florida. Thanks for the offer.
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Old September 6, 2013, 07:22 PM   #17
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As the guy who filmed and was on the receiving end (before knowing what a tap out was) once the defender's hand slides down the forearm to wrist, an untrained attacker should be out of the game.

On a very basic level, it assumes MOST BGs are not expecting the defender to defend but rather act like a typical victim.

What I can tell you is once the defender begins to use / apply leverage, your OODA loop is continuously re-setting or is totally disrupted. As the attacker, I stopped thinking about my weapon but rather, "***, this isn't working!"

DaddyO poses an interesting scenario, you and Heath need to try it at near full speed to see what happens. It assumes your attacker is a trained "professional"
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Old September 6, 2013, 10:32 PM   #18
MLeake
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Well, Heath is helping bring in some hay later this weekend, so we'll have to see if anybody is up to running the camera - assuming we aren't reduced to sneezing messes by the ragweed...
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Old September 7, 2013, 04:45 PM   #19
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LOL

Instead of assuming the attacker is a trained professional, assume he is intent on killing you if he can given the offensive burst you have initiated.

My biggest question is whether the BG can simply bend his wrist and fire and hit some part of the innocent. I would try it myself but I don't have a cameraman or a bad guy man LOL.
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Old September 7, 2013, 05:39 PM   #20
gotthegoods
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DaddyO - do I know you from TGO?
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Old September 7, 2013, 05:51 PM   #21
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Bending your wrist and firing is possible - I don't think anyone's disputing that.
Any movement a human is capable of making is possible to counter, it's just usually they don't.

I'm not a martial arts expert by any means, but even I've had enough training to know that people never react very quickly when you surprise them. The more training you get, the quicker you can react, but most of the time you can count on a second or so - which is a lot of time in a fight.

But, if Jet Li ever has a gun on me, I'll probably just reach for the sky.
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Old September 9, 2013, 08:50 AM   #22
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Quote:
DaddyO - do I know you from TGO?
tgo?
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Old September 9, 2013, 10:01 AM   #23
MLeake
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Experiment will have to wait until next weekend. Loaded and stacked around 250 hay bales when my back said, "No mas!"
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Old September 23, 2013, 02:58 AM   #24
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Very good videos MLeake. I look forward to seeing more. Thanks for sharing!
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Old September 23, 2013, 02:28 PM   #25
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being in l.e. I can say that few cops actually practice some of these basic moves. even if youre not a cop this stuff is good to practice. like in the videos, start slow to learn the mechanics. speed will come later.
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