The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 25, 2013, 08:29 PM   #1
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Posts: 1,496
Tragic but an innocent pizza delivery guy survived

When we lived in AZ, it seemed that about once a month a CCW holder stopped an assault or robbery.
(clarify edit: move to present day FL)
It may be the current environment, but it seems similar events make instant national news. I believe Pizza Hut forbids drivers from being armed, but this Dominos driver was. I hope there are no repercussions against the driver by Dominos.
Conversely, do you think this 32 year old young man would have brought a knife to a gun fight if he knew the driver was likely armed?

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/story/23...s-armed-robber
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابي

Last edited by TXAZ; August 27, 2013 at 11:04 PM.
TXAZ is offline  
Old August 25, 2013, 08:41 PM   #2
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,561
Nearly any large company will have a policy against employees (other than security guards) being armed to limit liability. I've found a few non-official sources that claim Dominos has just such a policy.

It's almost certain that he will be fired.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 25, 2013, 08:51 PM   #3
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Posts: 1,496
I hope not JohnKSa. A 50+ year old pizza driver is likely just trying to make ends meet. I guess we will see over the next few days.
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابي
TXAZ is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:02 AM   #4
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,160
Quote:
Nearly any large company will have a policy against employees (other than security guards) being armed to limit liability. I've found a few non-official sources that claim Dominos has just such a policy.
I wonder how that compares to their liability if their driver is stabbed and bleeds out in the parking lot?

This one hits close to home for me, the hotel is just off I-95 and the immediate area has seen plenty of trouble in the past. Last year a couple robbing a different hotel at the same exit ended up in a chase and shot a long-serving female sheriff's deputy to death. Definitely not a place in which to be out and about late at night (unless, of course, your job depends on it).

If these "we deliver" food places started mandating that ALL drivers have their CC permits and are encouraged to carry, I think we would see fewer of these incidents. Word would spread quickly in the criminal community.

Last edited by spacecoast; August 26, 2013 at 01:56 PM.
spacecoast is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:14 AM   #5
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
We've had related discussions before (typically about pharmacies). There is minimal, if any, liability to the employer based on the criminal actions of third parties. Add to that the fact that some employers take out insurance policies on their employees - that pay the employers - and there is NO incentive for corporate to authorize carry.

A couple or so decades back, I drove pizzas (senior year of high school). One of my buddies at the same company received what turned out to be a planned ambush order. He arrived at an apparently deserted house, got out of his car to verify the address, and was approached by a knife-wielding robber. At the time, our company used canvas shopping bags to transport soft drinks, and my buddy had a six-pack of Coke in one of those bags.

He used the weighted bag to knock the robber silly, then jumped into his car and sped off.

Corporate reaction? Canvas bags were removed, and soft drinks were put into plastic sleeves that would not stand up to such use...
MLeake is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 11:04 AM   #6
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,835
We discussed employer or local liability for not letting you carry. IIRC, the argument is who is the bad actor. It is the criminal. The employer or locale is not responsible unless there is a known or directed threat - not just the possibility of a robbery. Our law types might comment.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 12:44 PM   #7
thallub
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2007
Location: South Western OK
Posts: 2,125
The "justice system" failed to keep a violent criminal behind bars. This from the link says it all.

Quote:
Kelly was struck and pronounced dead at the scene. Deputies say this wasn't the first offense for Fredrick Kelly Jr. It turns out he has a lengthy violent criminal history that includes Armed Robbery, Aggravated Battery and False Imprisonment. Brevard County Sheriff deputies also said that the suspect in this investigation, Kelly, was released from prison in 2009, after serving a reduced sentence for similar violent crimes.
Yeah, Domino's will probablly fire the delivery man. They have done that before.
thallub is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 12:48 PM   #8
P5 Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2005
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 1,184
At least he is alive to get fired.
Remember back about 25 years ago when Corporations like that were sued to stop redlining certain neighborhoods?
P5 Guy is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 01:05 PM   #9
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 8,034
If I were a Pizza Delivery guy, I'd carry a gun and not worry about "being fired". Let's see, I have to hustle around in my own car delivering pizzas to drunk idiots, sketchy people and some who are flat out looking to rob you of your money and non-company provided vehicle. Not only would I carry a gun, but it would be a full-sized large capacity .40 and a BUG.

If I got fired, I'd apply for the same job 3 doors down. Too little pay for such a high risk job. Some company rules are only for dead employees.
Skans is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 01:15 PM   #10
ripnbst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2010
Location: Tulsa, OK
Posts: 1,396
Tragic but an innocent pizza delivery guy survived

You know what else these companies could do? Tell the public their people are allowed to carry even if they really aren't. Fear of the gun would likely keep the away.

Knowing that many large companies have policies against it to limit liability is why this happens.
ripnbst is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 02:43 PM   #11
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,562
Quote:
You know what else these companies could do? Tell the public their people are allowed to carry even if they really aren't. Fear of the gun would likely keep the away.
No, it would not. It would be hypocrisy at the most basic level. The drivers would feel like they are being hung out to dry. Plus, it would not be a secret for very long that the supposedly armed drivers aren't armed. On top of that, the notion of being armed does not stop robberies. Fear of the gun only goes so far when people 1) have not heard about the drivers purportedly being armed, 2) when judgment is clouded by drugs or alcohol, 3) judgment is overruled by intense need (jonesing for drugs, desperate for money to survive), or 4) when the hype is not believed.

Telling the public that your drivers are armed when they are not would be a VERY BAD IDEA.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 03:15 PM   #12
Ralgha
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 107
I'm afraid I'm not seeing the part of this story that's tragic. A career violent criminal has been removed from society, I wouldn't call that tragic.
Ralgha is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 05:30 PM   #13
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Posts: 1,496
Thallus noted
Quote:
Yeah, Domino's will probablly fire the delivery man. They have done that before.
Maybe, but I just gave them my $0.02 worth on their email feedback on their website.


Maybe worthwhile, maybe not but I tried.
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابي
TXAZ is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:08 PM   #14
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Devils Advocate....

I agree with most of the posted remarks, but...
Id add that some employees who KNOWINGLY violate company SOPs or cut corners to save time/hassles bring a termination on themselves.

A few years ago, I read of a major pizza chain that fired 02 store managers for how they did bank deposits/$$$ turn-ins.
They'd cut corners & have only one person do it(rather than pairs) & would go to banks/offices with lax attitudes(not securing doors, escorts for employees at closing, no CCTVs/lights, etc).
This led to a armed robbery & major changes.
Savvy criminals & violent thugs may track or plan a business down to the last detail or topic.
As I've stated in the past, there are no "professional robbers". When a armed robber aims a loaded weapon at you, they are fully prepared to kill you! There are no "stick up kids". George Clooney or Brad Pitt are not going to smooth talk you or be glib.
You need to fully ready to defend yourself if you have a clear shot & can take out the felon(s).
Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:46 PM   #15
DnPRK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2001
Location: LC, Ca
Posts: 1,778
An insurance company is not obligated to pay for the death of an employee shot during a robbery.

But the same insurance company will be forced to pay millions to the family of a robber shot by an employee.
DnPRK is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 11:07 PM   #16
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,380
Times change.
My Dad was a city bus driver, 1940-1976.
Sometime in the 1950s, holdups of bus and taxi drivers were increasing.
The sheriff pointed out that this was a hazardous occupation because many of the drivers were armed. And furthermore, if stick ups did not cease, he would deputize and arm ALL the drivers. Holdups did not completely go away, but they dropped off a lot.

By the time he retired, the attitude and approach had changed. Exact fare only into a locked and bolted down fare box, no change on hand.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 12:21 AM   #17
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,617
Quote:
A career violent criminal has been removed from society, I wouldn't call that tragic.
A life taken without the benefit of due process? Yes, I'd consider that tragic. Necessary at the time and under the circumstances, but it's still nothing to celebrate.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 01:10 AM   #18
RodTheWrench
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2013
Location: Utah
Posts: 294
No, Tom, nothing to celebrate but the guy was locked up how many times and was back doing the same thing again? It's too bad it had to end this way, but he chose to live his life in violence and he died in justifiable violence. No tears shed here.
__________________
"It ain't braggin' if you CAN DO IT!" - Elmer Keith
RodTheWrench is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 07:19 AM   #19
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,562
Quote:
A life taken without the benefit of due process?
I would not call it tragic either. Not calling it tragic isn't the same as celebrating. The career criminal forced the situation, not the pizza guy. The pizza guy's life was being threatened without due process first.

What is tragic is whatever grief and disharmony the pizza guy is going through.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 07:38 AM   #20
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 8,034
Quote:
I would not call it tragic either. Not calling it tragic isn't the same as celebrating. The career criminal forced the situation, not the pizza guy. The pizza guy's life was being threatened without due process first.

What is tragic is whatever grief and disharmony the pizza guy is going through.
Ditto - I couldn't have expressed it better.
Skans is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 08:00 AM   #21
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Due process is something that applies to how the state acts, with its luxury of time and deliberation. There can't be due process, per se, in a fight for survival. That is something for the aftermath.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 09:18 AM   #22
ClydeFrog
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,798
Another pizza guy hold-up...

In my metro area last week, a armed citizen(pizza guy) smoke-checked a violent robber.
The crook had a large knife & moved to rob the delivery driver at a low-end hotel.
The deceased subject had a long, long history of violent crime.
The police investigation is still under way but a PD media affairs rep said that any criminal charges were unlikely.

Clyde
ClydeFrog is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 09:24 AM   #23
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
ClydeFrog, the OP incident was covered by myFOXorlando.com - are you sure this was not the same incident? (West Melbourne)
MLeake is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 10:07 AM   #24
TXAZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 5, 2010
Posts: 1,496
Free and easy way to support the Pizza Delivery driver

As noted in a post above, I used the following link to provide polite and proactive support of this pizza delivery driver back to Dominos management.

https://info.dominos.com/dominos_pizza/contact.nsf/

If you are so inclined please consider.

Glenn,
Thanks for the ok to post the link.
__________________
!أنا لست إرهابي

Last edited by TXAZ; August 27, 2013 at 10:14 AM.
TXAZ is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 10:23 AM   #25
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,160
More details in the case -

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/...police-officer

Be sure to read both pages, he may not lose his job because it was an independent Domino's and not a company owned store.

Quote:
Many employers have long banned guns from the workplace as part of a violence-prevention strategy, but those policies routinely are being tested as states pass laws making it easier for residents to carry concealed guns...

Food-delivery employees are sometimes viewed as targets by criminals because the latter know they’re carrying money and food. And it’s often later in the evening.
Let's hope for the sake of the people do this kind of work that concealed carry becomes an accepted option.


Quote:
Arthur Hayhoe of the Florida Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said his position is that “guns and business don’t mix.” Hayhoe is an outspoken critic of the National Rifle Association.
Note the standard absurd comment from the representative of the Antis.

Last edited by spacecoast; August 27, 2013 at 10:31 AM.
spacecoast is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12585 seconds with 7 queries