The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Hunt

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 26, 2013, 03:04 PM   #26
ligonierbill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 20, 2007
Posts: 749
Yep, been hunting on horseback. Nope, don't scan with my rifle. Gonna shoot from the horse? Most of 'em don't like it. Consider it from the other side. There you are, high in the saddle, scanning the next ridge for game. As you swing over to that patch of trees, there hunkered down behind some deadfall is some yahoo scoping you! He's a quarter mile off, but I'll bet you want to spur that pony and get over there to speak to the fellow. Game spotted, and you want to count points, OK. I've even "counted coupe" on game for which I lacked a tag. Just lookin'? No way, no how, never ever.
ligonierbill is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 03:08 PM   #27
Backwoodsboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2012
Location: Western, Ny
Posts: 189
Disrespectful!!!, disgraceful, and just plain STUPID!!!!!!!!!. DONT EVER POINT YOUR FIREARM AT ANYTHING YOU DONT INTEND TO SHOOT.
__________________
"Si vis pacem, para bellum". If you want peace, Prepare for war!!!!
Backwoodsboy is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 04:46 PM   #28
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by ligonierbill
Yep, been hunting on horseback. Nope, don't scan with my rifle. Gonna shoot from the horse? Most of 'em don't like it. Consider it from the other side. There you are, high in the saddle, scanning the next ridge for game. As you swing over to that patch of trees, there hunkered down behind some deadfall is some yahoo scoping you! He's a quarter mile off, but I'll bet you want to spur that pony and get over there to speak to the fellow. Game spotted, and you want to count points, OK. I've even "counted coupe" on game for which I lacked a tag. Just lookin'? No way, no how, never ever.
That made me laugh! Not at all what I was referring to. But, that is ok. In the high country, it is often that you spot game a long way off, ride to the location, dismount, find a rest and then scan the area with your scope trying to locate the game you saw four canyons over 3 hours ago. If you do locate them, you are ready for a shot. Simple as that. Never say never!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shortwave
...but what about non-hunters (hikers, campers or maybe people living up in the mountains) that may not be wearing hunter orange? Maybe I'm missing something but sweeping a mountain ridge or getting a better view of movement with a scoped rifle on a mountain ridge would seem to me to be no different then doing it anywhere else.

I don't think you quite understand the terrain. Non-hunters and campers most likely (very, very slim chance) are wandering off the established trails of the western mountains during hunting season. And people don't live in these mountains or deserts.
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!
Wyoredman is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 05:02 PM   #29
Wyoredman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2011
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 1,247


Picture by Stan Harter, a friend of mine. Used with permission.

Here is a perfect example of a situation where using your scope to look over the animals is NOT dangerous. This photo was taken last fall, just after hunting season closed.

These situations and this terrain are common. I hope this photo describes it better!

P.S. Those elk are more than a mile away! No one is near them, or between them and the camera, or SCOPE! There are no roads or trails! The snow is knee deep. It just isn't dangerous to use your scope to look these critters over.
__________________
Go Pokes!
Go Rams!

Last edited by Wyoredman; August 26, 2013 at 05:07 PM.
Wyoredman is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 05:19 PM   #30
Jo6pak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2010
Location: West Coast...of WI
Posts: 1,461
Never a good idea. Not only are you pointing your rifle at something you don't intend to shoot. A definite rule breaker.
But, a pair of binoculars offers a much better field of view, and it also requires less movement to scan with binocs rather than a scope.

I cringe every time I hear someone suggest that a scope is good for anything besides target acquisition.
__________________
NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.
Jo6pak is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 05:28 PM   #31
Armed_Chicagoan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 18, 2013
Location: Albany Park, Chicago
Posts: 280
That elk herd picture reminds me of when I was driving in northwest Colorado about 10 years ago, in late winter. I was on a straight country road, and noticed there was a road kill mule deer about every few hundred yards. I had never seen such a concentration of road kill! Better keep an eye out I thought, especially as it was late in the day just before dusk. Then up ahead I saw a mule deer on the side of the road, ready to cross. I slowed down, and looked behind him to see if there were more, I've had enough near-misses and a few hits just driving in suburban Chicago with deer and know there's usually more than one. Sure enough, there was another behind it. Then another, then another... next thing you know there were many dozen, maybe a hundred, crossing the road in front of me. It was an amazing sight to me, whitetails just don't form herds that big!

Suddenly I could understand all the road kill I saw, at night it would be hard to avoid them when they cross in such numbers.
Armed_Chicagoan is online now  
Old August 26, 2013, 06:00 PM   #32
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,005
Quote:
Originally posted byjimbob86:

A good set of binos can help you pick out the flick of an ear or the turn of a head further out than the naked eye can ...... still hunting is a lost art.
Still hunting is not lost, it's just misunderstood. Last two bucks I shot stillhunting were less than 30 yards away when I pulled the trigger. I assure you jimbob, I did not need to use binos to spot them. Actually, at that distance from a mature buck, the movement made by lowering my gun and raising a pair of binos, then lowering the binos outta the way while raising the gun again, more'n likely would made for a lost opportunity.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 07:18 PM   #33
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,930
Thanks for the amazing pic. Wyoredman.

Have seen some fairly large herds of buffalo out West but nothing to compare to that herd of elk. And I also found out in short order that buffalo versus motorcycle is a sure loser for the rider. Buffalo all over the roads.

Guess old habits would be hard to break though. Just wouldn't feel comfortable scope spotting even in the pic. scenario.
Think I'd still have my bino's in my saddle bag.
shortwave is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 08:55 PM   #34
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,213
Shortwave, Having been both a SWAT team member and Police sniper, I have probably had close to 1000 people in my sights over my career. I work in a bit smaller, more laid back town now, but a few years back when I was executing a couple of drug raids each day I went to work, a lot of people got viewed through an aiming device. In building clearing, every thing you see(in one eye anyway) is seen through the aiming device of a sub-gun or M-4. All day, I keep a loaded hand gun pointed at some of the largest arteries and veins in my body. I dont worry about getting shot by my pistol just because its muzzle is pointing at me.
It is not a necessity to idiot proof every aspect of life. There comes a point when you have to trust your training, trust your proficiency and ability, trust your weapons system, and trust your skills in maintaining your weapons system to its proper functioning condition.
Having said that, I have never scoped a person in a hunting situation. A person and a deer move totally different. Pretty easy to tell them apart.

Last edited by reynolds357; August 26, 2013 at 09:58 PM.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:02 PM   #35
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,259
Quote:
Having been both a SWAT team member and Police sniper, I have probably had close to 1000 people in my sights over my career. I work in a bit smaller, more laid back town now, but a few years back when I was executing a couple of drug raids each day I went to work, a lot of people got viewed through an aiming device.
Those people were potential targets, not someone wandering through a hunting area.

Are you honestly saying you see no difference between potential targets encountered during a drug raid and a hunter or even a trespasser?
Quote:
All day, I keep a loaded hand gun pointed at some of the largest arteries and veins in my body. I dont worry about getting shot by my pistol just because its muzzle is pointing at me.
That gun is holstered (at least it should be) which effectively renders it completely inert and eliminates the potential for human error causing an unintentional discharge.

Are you honestly saying you see no difference between pointing a loaded hunting rifle at someone and having the muzzle of a holstered carry gun pointing at something?
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:06 PM   #36
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 3,560
Reynolds 357,OK,you feel comfortable viewing ME through an aiming device,and you feel comfortable being in front of your own muzzle.Fine.


How would you feel about looking into the muzzle and objective lense of a stranger?

How do those crosshairs feel when they are on you?
HiBC is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:13 PM   #37
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,213
What I am doing is responding to a question asked earlier. I can with a very high degree of certainty eliminate beyond any reasonable probability that a target is a human using the naked eye. If the target demonstrates a high probability to disappear quickly, I usually make final identification of it with the scope. I have enough confidence in my ability to identity with the naked eye and with my equipment that I see the risk of harming a trespasser as near impossible. As to whether I want to be looked at in a scope, If I am trespassing, I deserve to be. Making accommodation What people committing crimes want is really the least of my worries.

Last edited by reynolds357; August 26, 2013 at 10:19 PM.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:24 PM   #38
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,930
reynolds357,

First, having had/have relatives and many friends in LE, let me sincerely Thank You for your services and for risking your life daily for your community.

I'm familiar with a lot of the rigorous training Cols., Ohio Swat team goes through and my hats off to them. I assume your training is similar.

With respect, there's a big difference in the quality and quantity of training you've had compared to the training the average Joe in the field has had. Plus, when you had every one of those people in your sights, you were doing your job in which other lives were at stake. Big difference then a person going out for an afternoon of hunting. It would not matter to me if it was Carlos Hathcock II spotting me through a scope while we were out hunting, it would upset me. For the simple reason, I don't want any guns pointed towards me and there's just no rational reason for it.

Quote:
If I am trespassing, I deserve to be. Making accommodation What people committing crimes want is really the least of my worries.
reynolds357,

Are you saying that in your LE precinct it is legal to draw down on someone trespassing ?
shortwave is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:33 PM   #39
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,213
Shortwave, I agree with you. Having said that, I have killed a couple of nice bucks crossing shooting alleys that would have never been killed had I gone to Binos first. With the naked eye, I knew its brown, it walks like an animal, its not hanging around and its at almost 500 yards. My point is that I am definitely willing to go to scope in that situation because no human is supposed to be there. I am 99.999 percent confident that the target is a creature with fur. I dont have a bunch of time to make a shot. I am confident in the mechanical mechanism of the rifle. I do not see it as irresponsible to multiply a .001 percent question of identity by a 1 in 6 billion chance of mechanical failure.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:36 PM   #40
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,213
Shortwave, it would depend on the circumstances of the trespassing as to whether or not it would be legal to draw down on the person. If i were trespassing, I would view it as my own fault if the land owner drew down on me.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:37 PM   #41
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,259
Quote:
What I am doing is responding to a question asked earlier.
I realize that. I just asked you a couple more questions.

You justified pointing a loaded rifle at someone by equating them with the targets you were presented during police operations. I asked for clarification to determine if you really believe a potentially hostile target encountered in a drug raid is really the same as a hunter who may be trespassing.

You justified pointing a loaded rifle at someone by equating that action with sweeping yourself with a holstered carry gun. I asked for clarification to determine if you really believe that pointing a loaded rifle at someone was really the same as sweeping yourself with a holstered carry gun.

I see you neglected to respond to either one.
Quote:
What people committing crimes want is really the least of my worries.
I don't know your location, but in some areas, pointing a loaded gun at someone is a crime. That would put you in exactly the same category as the trespasser.
Quote:
I can with a very high degree of certainty eliminate beyond any reasonable probability that a target is a human using the naked eye. If the target demonstrates a high probability to disappear quickly, I usually make final identification of it with the scope. I have enough confidence in my ability to identity with the naked eye and with my equipment that I see the risk of harming a trespasser as near impossible.
I'm sure you believe that is true. However, people are shot by accident while hunting every year, many even after they have been observed through a scope.

The safety rules are there for all of us, not just other people. Not just for those who aren't trained as well as we are. Not just for those who aren't as experienced or aren't as confident of their own capabilities as we are.

It's precisely when we start thinking that we're too well trained, too smart, to experienced, to have to follow the rules--when we begin to be so confident in our own abilities that we don't need to adhere to the safety rules that tragedies happen. And your bluster notwithstanding, shooting someone for trespassing would be a tragedy.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:43 PM   #42
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,213
John, keep in mind that I have never mis-identified a human being and looked at them in a scope in a hunting situation. The point I am making is that I am confident enough when hunting on private land to go straight to scope most of the time. The worst I have mis identified a moving target with the naked eye was when I mis identified a fox as a Coyotee. Scope revealed the mistake.
When I look at a buck, I want to be looking at him with mill dots.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:54 PM   #43
reynolds357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 10, 2012
Posts: 2,213
Are yall talking about using the scope as a monoculour and scanning for targets?
I totally disagree with that. I don't think that one must go to binos before rifle scope in most situations.
reynolds357 is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 10:59 PM   #44
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 6,731
Quote:
Still hunting is not lost, it's just misunderstood. Last two bucks I shot stillhunting were less than 30 yards away when I pulled the trigger. I assure you jimbob, I did not need to use binos to spot them. Actually, at that distance from a mature buck, the movement made by lowering my gun and raising a pair of binos, then lowering the binos outta the way while raising the gun again, more'n likely would made for a lost opportunity.
If you had used the binos and more patience in scanning with them, you may have seen them long before they were close enough that you could not lower the binos and raise the gun .......
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old August 26, 2013, 11:18 PM   #45
shortwave
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2007
Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO
Posts: 5,930
Quote:
Are yall talking about using the scope as a monoculour and scanning for targets?
Yes sir.
shortwave is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 10:54 AM   #46
Saltydog235
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2010
Location: Pawleys Island
Posts: 1,100
Anyone using a scope for a optical aid to locate game is stupid, irresponsible and dangerous. Scopes are not intended for that purpose, that is what binos are for.

I was probably in my teens when my uncle took a man's rifle from him, unloaded it and smashed the scope and gun against a disc harrow on a tractor because the guy pulled it out to look at a deer running across a field between him and some standers. The guy was PO'd but what are you going to do with 250lbs of raging 6'4" Marine that served 2 tours in Nam.
Saltydog235 is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 11:31 AM   #47
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 2,005
Quote:
Originally posted by jimbob86:

If you had used the binos and more patience in scanning with them, you may have seen them long before they were close enough that you could not lower the binos and raise the gun .......
I appreciate you trying to make me a better hunter Jimbo, but without knowing the terrain I hunt and the way I hunt I don't think you have a clue. Using iron sighted handguns with a range of 80 yards or less in terrain where visibility is less than 50 yards, a pair of binos around my neck is more of a burden than an asset. Sometimes after hunting deer for 50 years, one gets set in their ways and just enjoys doing it their way and not how someone else does it in a totally different scenario. But then this is not the subject of the thread and altho we do not agree about whether or not I should hunt your way instead of mine, we do agree that using your scope as a means of scanning a horizon for game is not practical or safe.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 12:49 PM   #48
603Country
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 2,248
I will not observe a human through a rifle scope. I've had it done to me and I did not like it. In that instance, I found out later that the hunter scoping me was a trespasser. Wish I'd have know that at the time. I'd have called the landowner.

As for using the rifle scope to observe wildlife, I often use it at max power to check out antlers, if I can't get a good enough look with the binocs. And when hunting narrow lanes in thick cover, quite often if you take the time to have a look with the binocs, you'll not have time for a shot. Doing that (binocs first) cost me a shot at the biggest buck of my entire life. I had known that buck was in that end of the woods, and I'd been waiting for a shot at that monster for 2 years. And there he was...in my view through the binocs...and then he was gone before I could get the rifle up.
603Country is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 04:07 PM   #49
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 561
If you are talking about using a scope to scan for game such as sitting in a stand or still hunting through the woods, then I would say its a bad idea. If you are using the scope to take a closer look at a deer to see if it meets a point restriction rule, I don't see a problem. I don't see a scope as an "Identification" tool, but for more detailed inspection I have no problems with it. Every situation is different, the key is in knowing YOUR situation and applying a little common sense and caution to the mix.
Panfisher is offline  
Old August 27, 2013, 06:43 PM   #50
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,416
Heh. Panfisher has the thread back on track. The deal is about the advisability of scanning countryside with one's scope instead of binoculars.

Aside from any inherent safety issues--such as Diddly Dumbbutt having his finger on the trigger--there are some folks who if they see a rifle pointed at them, will at least sling a warning shot toward the "surveyor". Bummer.

Sitting and scanning isn't the same thing as focussing on a known brief-instant trail crossing, as with reynolds357's example.

And if nothing else, scanning with binoculars allows you to remain out of sight of critters, with less betraying motion. Binoculars are lighter, allowing you to scan for longer periods. All that little stuff...
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12789 seconds with 7 queries