The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 23, 2013, 07:19 PM   #1
Exit_Wound
Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2013
Posts: 28
Help With Rifle Calibers!

Hey there sports fans!

So, I need some help with my first long gun!

I don't quite understand the difference in calibers. I am quite comfortable with handgun cartridges, and understand the considerations for selecting them.

I just can't seem to grasp long guns! I think the naming conventions are throwing me off.

For example:

1. Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size?
2. What does .30 caliber mean? Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30?
3. What is a good versatile hunting round?
4. What is a good tactical round?

Also, why are AR-15 rifles so popular given that they are chambered for a relatively small round? (That question -well, this entire post- could be a testament to my ignorance)

Thanks for your help!
Exit_Wound is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 07:41 PM   #2
Poindexter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2009
Location: Interior Alaska
Posts: 154
Well, this could be epic...

The first "number" should be, for most any rifle cartridge I can think of, the diameter of the bullet.

7mm Rem Mag. 338 WinMag. 308Win.

For "45-70" and "30-30" the first number is the bullet diameter or caliber, the second is the grains (by volume) of black powder contained in a factory loaded cartridge.

"30-06" and "30-08" were both military cartridges, the first adopted by the US army in 19"06" and the other adopted by I believe the German army in 19"08".

In general a "30" caliber rifle uses a bullet .308" (or 7.62mm) in diameter.

In general "22" caliber rifles use a bullet .224" (or 5.7mm, or 5.56mm) in diameter. NB: "223 Remington" uses a .224" diameter bullet.

Per your specific questions:

1. 22LR typically launchs a .224" bullet weighing 40grains (440 grains to one ounce, so about 1/11th of an ounce) at 800 to maybe 1200 fps muzzle. 223Rem was originally designed to toss a 50gr .224" bullet at 3000fps, current loads for 62gr bullets (mine) run about 2500-2700fps.

2. All the calibers you specifically mentioned use .308" diameter bullets, but each has a range of suitable bullet weights and reasonably achievable velocities.

3. It depends on what you want to hunt, how versatile you want it to be. If I could only have one hunting rifle in North American I would probably go with either .308Winchester or 30-06. Adequate defense against big bears along the Alaskan coast, suitable for moose and caribou, way plenty for black bear in the lower 48, OK for wide open space antelope, way way plenty for white tailed deer. If I was going to hunt a lot of antelope I would use a smaller lighter bullet that could fly a little further. I hear tell antelope are real hard to get close to, never hunted one myself. If i was going to hunt a lot of white tail in deep woods I would look for a 1894 Winchester rifle chambered in 30-30. It really depends.

However, if you plan carefully you ought to be able to build a hunting rifle battery or collection around four rifles such that one of your four rifles will be a good choice for anything. Which four - another lengthy debate.

4. What are your tactics? The M1 Garand chambered in 30-06 was a good match with out infantry tactics in the 1940s. Whether we changed our tactics first and then designed the 223Remington, or changed our infantry tactics to accommodate the 223Remington will be debated for centuries.

Bonus: The hallmark strength of the AR15 platform is the shear number of calibers it can run. Start with a 5.56. Buy a 458Socom upper and have a bison rifle. Buy a 6.8mm Grendel upper and have a 50state legal deer rifle. Buy a 17RemFireball upper and have a varmit rifle. All of these uppers can run on the same lower with the same shoulder stock and the same trigger and the same trigger break every time.

Good luck.
Poindexter is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 07:44 PM   #3
Ozzieman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 5,028
1.Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size?
Velocity and bullet weight so out surpasses the LR that there not in the same league.
2. What does .30 caliber mean? Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30?
The 30 caliber rounds you just mentioned are all .308 inches in diameter.
3. What is a good versatile hunting round?
Depending on what you’re shooting the 3 you listed are some of the best for midsized game.
4. What is a good tactical round?
308 and 30-06 are good and add the 5.56
__________________
“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.” – Thomas Jefferson.

Politician's are like diapers.
You need to change them often,,,,, for the same reason!
Ozzieman is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 07:52 PM   #4
SDC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2001
Location: People's Republic of Kanada
Posts: 1,644
1. Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size?

Yes, they're roughly the same calibre, but the 223 fires a jacketed bullet travelling almost 4 times as fast, and has a lot more target effect.

2. What does .30 caliber mean? Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30?

Yes, these would all be 30-calibre, but loaded into different cartridges and having different velocities and effective ranges (though the 308 and 30-06 are near identical in that respect).

3. What is a good versatile hunting round?

It really depends on what you'd be planning to hunt, and at what ranges; some areas of the country, you'd be hunting in relatively thick forest, and any shots would be within 100 yards (30-30 would be typical here), while other areas of the country, you'd be lucky to even see a game animal at under 300 yards, and you'd need something with a flatter trajectory and long-range accuracy (270 Win, 30-06, or 7mm Mag). Or, you might be doing some "varmint" hunting, which requires a lightweight bullet and precise shooting, so you could choose among a wide range of .22-6mm centrefires.

4. What is a good tactical round?

Again, depends on what the projected use is; long -range sniping, close-range house-clearing, patrol carbine? Depending on the specifics, you can find rifles and calibres ranging from pistol-calibre carbines up through 338 Lapua Mag.

Also, why are AR-15 rifles so popular given that they are chambered for a relatively small round? (That question -well, this entire post- could be a testament to my ignorance)

They're simple, ergonomic, easy to maintain, have a wide range of accessories, have low recoil, are easy to learn to shoot well, have respectable target effect and a wide range of available ammunition for different uses, and on, and on, and on...
__________________
Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.
SDC is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 08:00 PM   #5
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 7,109
Quote:
1. Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size?
Disrespect either and bad things can happen.

That said, the bullets are nearly the same size and weight (the .223 Remington typically uses a bullet weighing 55 grains, the .22lr a 40 gr bullet), but the cartridges are not: the .22lr has maybe 1/10 the case capacity and operates at a much lower pressure, yeilding a much lower velocity. In simplest terms, the .223 has much more propellant behind it, making it go about 2.5-3 times as fast.

Quote:
2. What does .30 caliber mean?
"Having a bore diameter of roughly .30" .

Quote:
Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30?
Yes. And 30-40 Krag, 300 Savage, 300 WIN MAG, 300 UltraMag, 30TCU, 300 Blackout and many others. Why all the different cartridges? Marketing, that's why. .... Celebrate Diversity: Shoot them ALL!

Quote:
3. What is a good versatile hunting round?
Hunting round? Or Hunting Caliber?

There are SO Many. I like .270 Winchester. Nearly any medium bore rifle with sufficient case capacity can be used to kill anything in North America, if loaded properly.

Quote:
What is a good tactical round?
"Tactical"? Depends upon the "tactics" being utilized, does it not?
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 08:01 PM   #6
big al hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2011
Location: Washington state
Posts: 957
Quote:
. What does .30 caliber mean?
Caliber is the diameter of the bullet expressed in decimal parts of an inch, or in millimeters. 30 caliber is 0.308 inches diameter. 50 caliber is 0.50 inches or 1/2 inch diameter. For every cartridge there is a story about how it came to be and what it is capable of. Do you have specific questions about any cartridges?
__________________
You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!
big al hunter is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 08:32 PM   #7
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,560
Quote:
1. Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size?
even though both bullets are almost the exact same diameter 223 has the advantage of both weight and velocity which compute to much more energy than what the 22LR is capable of. the average bullet weight for 22lr is about 38 grains and is traveling 1100 Feet per second. the average 223 is 55 grains and travels more than double that around 2700FPS.

Quote:
2. What does .30 caliber mean? Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30?
30 caliber means the same as 45 caliber in handguns. it is .30 of an inch in diameter. this is a very broad description of bullets that are roughly .30'. 308, 30-30, 30 carbine, 30-40, 30-06, are all actually .308 inch in diameter. getting into metric descriptions murkies the waters a bit. 7.62 is usually considered the equivalent of 30 caliber and 7.62x51mm nato is almost identical to 308 winchester but 7.62x39mm, 7.62x54MM are actually 311 diameter(where the last 2 digits refer to length of the case rather than diameter of the bullet). interestingly enough 303 brit and 7.7 japanese also use 311 diameter bullets.

Quote:
3. What is a good versatile hunting round?
I prefer 243 for a good first time rifle owner, it's a very flat shooting round, has reasonable amount of recoil and still plenty of power for hunting medium game.

Quote:
4. What is a good tactical round?
no such thing as a tactical round. tactics are a mindset not a tool set. to quote another member here, I can tactically wipe my butt but there is no such thing as tactical toilet paper. good para military designs like the AR15 and AK47 clones use 5.56x45mm(the closest metric equivalent on 223) and 7.62x39 respectively. 7.62x39 has more stopping power up close but 223 is much more effective over range and more inherently accurate.

Quote:
Also, why are AR-15 rifles so popular given that they are chambered for a relatively small round? (That question -well, this entire post- could be a testament to my ignorance)
the AR15 is a very good design that lends itself to battle field tactics(for right handed shooters anyway). everything is in just the right spot so that you don't have to unshoulder the gun or remove your firing hand or even break sight picture. the AK can not claim the same. the AR15 is also a very modular design. you don't like the pistol grip? there are dozens to choose from. you don't like the butt stock? there's a few of them as well. trigger? handguard? the AR15 is easily modified, either for aesthetic reasons, ergonomics or even accurizing. no other design is so easy to work with and that is why ARs are so popular.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 08:46 PM   #8
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 3,170
I would hardly say the 223 gets "more respect" than the 22LR, I suspect the 22LR is THE best selling round in this country and outsells the 223 by a factor of at least 10.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 08:51 PM   #9
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,593
Several bullet manufacturers have "maps" of all the bullets they make, from 22-caliber on up to 45-caliber, in all the various weights.

Many gun stores have cartridge displays showing both antique and modern cartridges.

US and European cartridges can be the same, but with the US cartridges using the English system and the European cartridges using the metric system.

To really muddy the water, you have factory cartridges and "wildcat" cartridges. A wildcat can be an original design by some individual, or merely some factory cartridge necked up or down for a different bullet diameter by somebody who wants something different.

There are no, repeat no, hard and fast rules about naming cartridges.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 09:02 PM   #10
SIGSHR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 3,170
AR-15s are popular because many shooters in this country like to have the same firearms they trained on in Uncle Sam's service and the AR-15 is designed for modern low cost rapid manufacture.
SIGSHR is offline  
Old August 23, 2013, 10:25 PM   #11
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,560
interesting...
while I was serving uncle sam I wasn't restricted to semi auto and my M16 didn't have a nice badger ordnance handguard, RRA 2 stage trigger and hogue pistol grip. the controls may be the same as the M16/4 but they are not the same thing and nobody would claim that they are unless their last name is holder, fienstien or clinton.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 06:30 AM   #12
Bullcamp82834
Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2013
Location: Buffalo, WY
Posts: 94
Cartridges named after people are much more deadly, not to mention having nostalgic appeal.

To wit: 35 Whelen
257 Roberts
454 Casull
458 Lott
And of course the 280 Remington. Named for the great western artist.
Bullcamp82834 is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 08:03 AM   #13
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,321
A few clarifications, if I may...

"The first "number" should be, for most any rifle cartridge I can think of, the diameter of the bullet."

It's the nominal bullet caliber. Almost always the true bullet diameter is a bit different.

For example, the .300 Winchester Magnum takes a .308 diameter bullet.

The .270 Winchester takes a .277 caliber bullet.

One exception to that is the .308 Winchester, which takes a .308 diameter bullet.


"For "45-70" and "30-30" the first number is the bullet diameter or caliber, the second is the grains (by volume) of black powder contained in a factory loaded cartridge."

True for the .45-70, but not the .30-30. The .30-30 was never loaded with black powder from the factory. It was, however, loaded with 30 grains of smokeless powder. Same with the .25-35 Winchester, and the .30-40 Krag. That old "powder weight" nomenclature was quickly abandoned, though, because smokeless powder was so much more versatile than black powder.


""30-06" and "30-08" were both military cartridges, the first adopted by the US army in 19"06" and the other adopted by I believe the German army in 19"08"."

True for the .30-06, but not the .30-08. There never was such a cartridge as the .30-08. The .308 Winchester/7.62x51 NATO cartridge was developed after World War II and adopted into US military and NATO service in the 1950s.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 12:08 PM   #14
PetahW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 4,679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit_Wound

1. Why is it that a .223 has so much more respect than a .22lr?! Are the bullets not relatively the same size? -

Although the projectiles (bullets) are nominally the same size, in reality the LR is a small, inexpensive, low-powered rimfire; the .223 is a larger (holds more powder) centerfire - and is the civilian version of the current US Army 5.56NATO round.



2. What does .30 caliber mean? Does this include .308? 30-06? 30-30? -

".30 Caliber" refers to the bore (not groove) size, and would apply to any rifle with same & (usually) shooting a .308" diameter bullet - beit a magnum or smaller round of whatever name.



3. What is a good versatile hunting round? -

YMMV, and is an argument that's most likely been going on since guns were invented. Much depends upon each person's intended use & experience.



4. What is a good tactical round ? -

Any round which is controlable, while (at the same time) delivering enough preformance (either ballistic or gun-handling-wise) to meet the need(s) of the person/situation.



Also, why are AR-15 rifles so popular given that they are chambered for a relatively small round ? -

They are autoloaders; some shooters ascribe to the "spray & pray" attidude; and history - the US has long had a history of civillains desirous of US military weapons, yet still staying within current laws for civillian ownership.


I hope that's helped.


.
PetahW is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 03:05 PM   #15
Sierra280
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2013
Location: Gardnerville, NV
Posts: 569
Best thing for you to do is pick up a good reloading manual (Speer, Lyman, etc). Looking at the ballistic info and reading about each caliber will immediately clear thing up for you.
Sierra280 is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 03:46 PM   #16
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 1,360
Here is a visual comparison between .22LR and .223Rem (taken from thefirearm blog)
raimius is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 04:05 PM   #17
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 11,412
In traditional terminology, caliber is the bore diameter of the barrel.
A .30 or .300 caliber rifle will have a bore diameter very near .300"
That is the size of the hole drilled and reamed through the bar of steel being made into a barrel. Then they rifle it. Rifling grooves in that caliber range are commonly .004" deep. So the groove diameter, measured from bottom to bottom of opposing grooves, is .308". There is no mention of the chamber or cartridge, it is strictly the specification of the barrel. The complete name identifies the cartridge.
This is a common Internet Error, the groove diameter being reported as the bore.

You can read the catalogs and see that some guns are identified by bore diameter and some by groove diameter. (It is the American policy to make the bullets fit the groove diameter. This is not necessarily so in the rest of the world.) QV .300 Winchester Magnum and .308 Winchester have the same barrel specifications. One is named by the bore diameter, the other by the groove/bullet diameter.

7.62mm = .300" which is where the French System (metric) designation of a whole family of guns comes from. But Lazzeroni calls their products by the metric diameter of the bullet/groove, 7.82.

And some are just dreamed up by the advertising department.
For example, .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .224 Weatherby, and .225 Winchester ALL shoot .224" diameter bullets out of barrels with that as groove diameter.
But the early .22 Hornet and the old .22 Savage High Power don't.

Winchester did not introduce the .30-30 (under that name.) They brought out the .30 WCF (Winchester Center Fire.) But Marlin did not want to put the competitor's logo on their rifle, so they called it .30-30.

It is not that there is no system of cartridge nomenclature, it is that there are several and you just have to learn by rote to recognize which you are looking at.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 04:17 PM   #18
jimbob86
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 7,109
As we all debate how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin .......here's some advice to the OP:

Get a .22lr rifle and master the fundamentals.

Attend an Appleseed event, for inexpensive instruction.

Decide on a centerfire rifle to fit our needs ...... don't overthink it, but try to pick something that will be easy to feed.

Save your brass and learn to handload (it will not save you a bunch of money, but you will shoot a lot more and you will learn a lot in the process!)
__________________
TheGolden Rule of Tool Use: "If you don't know what you are doing, DON'T."

http://nefirearm.com/
jimbob86 is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 07:12 PM   #19
Mobuck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 2,389
Buy yourself a copy of " Cartridges of the World" and study it for a week.
Mobuck is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 10:34 PM   #20
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 2,141
While I think the 30-06 is probably the most versatile caliber, the one I think covers all reality hunting would be the 270 (.277 caliber and no, like 38 special it makes not sense as the name does not match the real caliber).

Probably the only animal not on the list for 270 W would be Brown or Grizzly bear (I left the alone all my life and they left me alone)
RC20 is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 11:23 PM   #21
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,750
Quote:
Buy yourself a copy of " Cartridges of the World" and study it for a week
By all means, do yourself a favor, and great service. Follow this valuable advise!

http://www.amazon.com/Cartridges-Wor.../dp/1440230595

The best thirty bucks you will ever spend.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old August 24, 2013, 11:24 PM   #22
Boomer58cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2013
Location: closer than you think
Posts: 967
Quote:
Well, this could be epic...
That's exactly what I thought when I read the OP.

Quote:
4. What is a good tactical round? 308 and 30-06 are good and add the 5.56
And... 7.62x39

Quote:
1. 22LR typically launchs a .224" bullet weighing 40grains (440 grains to one ounce,so about1/11th of an ounce) at 800 to maybe 1200 fps muzzle. 223Rem was originally designedto toss a 50gr.224" bullet at 3000fps, current loads for 62gr bullets (mine) run about 2500-2700fps.
Some of the newer hypervelocity .22 lr ammo will hit over 1750 fps, but even it's 204 lbs of energy is nothing compared to the .223's 1000+ lbs of energy. Even at that a 308, 30-06 or 7mm mag are capable of two to three times that energy.

Oh and the 22lr Is well respected by those that no its capabilities.

Well you guys cover this so well I should have kept my mouth shut but I have flappy fingers tonight and had to put my 2 cents in.

I had a feeling when I read the OP that there would be a flood of replies to this one. What a doozy

Boomer
__________________
The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war.
We're from the government, we're here to help

Last edited by Boomer58cal; August 24, 2013 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Operator error
Boomer58cal is offline  
Old August 25, 2013, 12:06 PM   #23
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,560
Quote:
Some of the newer hypervelocity .22 lr ammo will hit over 1750 fps
I would very much like to see some of that. CCI stingers are the fastest I've chrono'd and they were only 1300FPS from a carbine.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the crap people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
Bean counters told me I couldn't fire a man for being in a wheelchair, did it anyway. Ramps are expensive.-Cave Johnson.
tahunua001 is offline  
Old August 25, 2013, 12:35 PM   #24
ratshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 761
Tahunua100 these are rated for 1700fps. I have a couple of boxes but have never shot them. They are light at 30grs. Super Maximums. The 4th and 5th ones on the list.

http://www.aguilaammo.com/rimfire.html
__________________
Have you ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?

A village in Kenya called. They want their idiot back.
ratshooter is offline  
Old August 25, 2013, 07:37 PM   #25
Paul B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 1999
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,703
I think most questions have been very well covered. Now what we need to know is what does the OP wnat to do with whatever rifle/cartridge combo he chooses. What would be a versital hunting round depends on what's available.
The Late Col. Townsend Whelen once said, "The 30-06 is never a mistake." personally I agree with that but for a tactical rifle, the .223 (limited) .308/7.62 NATO. .300 Win. mag., .338 Lapua mag. and the mighty Browning .50 BMG just might be better chpoices tactically. I'm not even sure they use the 30-06 as a tactical cartridge anymore but freely admit I could be wrong. It sure doesn't seem to get the press of the others which is why my thought run in that direction.
As a hunting proposition, it depends. If limited to one rifle, probaly go with the 30-06. Sure would hate to give up my .35 Whelen though.
Paul B.
__________________
COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!
Paul B. is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13759 seconds with 7 queries