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Old August 20, 2013, 08:41 AM   #51
zukiphile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
I think Mr. Nugent does our cause more harm than good; he's preaching (if one can call it that ) to the choir, and there's nothing in his presentation that is likely to change the mind of anyone who is on the fence about, much less opposed to, gun rights. Yes, his "performances" around gun rights are calculated to appeal to emotion -- but he appeals to the emotions of people who already support gun rights, and who like the idea of giving the finger (metaphorically or otherwise) to authority.
Preliminarily, let's recognize that giving the metaphorical finger to authority is a significant element in American culture. Appealing to that culture can be part of effective advocacy.

In order for Mr. Nugent to do the cause of Second Amendment rights more harm than good, is performances would need to persuade people to restrict the scope of those rights. In the single example of his advocacy that I have seen, his interview by a nearly insufferable Pierce Morgan, he was relatively (i.e. relative to Morgan) calm and rational. I cannot assess performances I have not seen, but if those performances are calculated to appeal to the emotions of those who are support a wide scope for the right, then it seems likely that those performances would only offend those who seek to restrict the scope of the right.

Seen in that light, Mr. Nugent's persuasive power rests not in converting those of contrary opinion but in supporting or intensifying the sentiment of those with a similar opinion (and perhaps a contrary opinion as well).

If we were to clone Alan Gura 1000 times over and send them out to speak at 100,000 luncheons, addressing those who would fairly, reasonably and dispassionately assess the merits of his position, we would still lose the political issue. As important as that activity is, that is not how people ordinarily reach and support their conclusions.

To employ a different metaphor, if one engages in a street fight and chides a co-belligerent for his failure to adhere to Queensbury rules, there is an area of the engagement one leaves unaddressed.
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Old August 20, 2013, 09:40 AM   #52
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You may be right, Zuke -- my concern is whether he does more harm than good, given that he feeds right into some really negative stereotypes about gun owners.

I like your idea of cloning Alan Gura, though... not so much for speaking as for all those court cases.
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Old August 20, 2013, 09:59 AM   #53
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Unfortunately Alan Gura cloned 1000 times would have no effect ... unless he could get funding for his cases.
It costs a tremendous amount of money to pursue those cases.
And usually government agencies look closely at the cost to defend those cases, as opposed to settling or coming up with some accommodation.
Ted Nugent funds all his own activities (along with his sponsors, who, apparently like and approve of him).
And I suspect he funds some others as well. (He doesn't get free NRA dues, does he?)
So I liked that comment 'Rock on Ted'.
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Old August 20, 2013, 10:15 AM   #54
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...he feeds right into some really negative stereotypes about gun owners.
No doubt.

A lot of those stereotypes are true, and some are so rarely true that they are effectively slanderous.

I come at this with the idea that trying to tamp down unfavorable personal presentations is a losing battle because we have no control over them, and that a description of a right also includes unseemly exercises of the right.

Is this the fellow who cut a tree down with a rifle? That, cowboy hats and dressing as he does (in my iffy memory, he was a thin fellow with bad teeth, a scraggley beard, wearing a commercial camo undershirt under a coat or open shirt*) are not anything I would do.

If you and I conclude that this man behaves foolishly, we should also be able to explain that while so much of what he does isn't to our taste, we don't impose our tastes, anxieties and preferences on others in the absence of an important purpose and legitimate authority.

That is one aspect of temperament that separates Vanya and zukiphile from Senator Feinstein. While the Senator is smart and has ample rational capacity, it is her intolerant temperament that makes her a greater net harm than Nugent.

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Old August 20, 2013, 10:40 AM   #55
Glenn E. Meyer
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Unfortunately, rational supporters of gun rights don't get as much air time as crazies. I was surprised the other day when CNN had a fairly neutral report on gun buying in Newton. The progun folks were normal.
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Old August 20, 2013, 12:20 PM   #56
buck460XVR
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jo6pak:

Take him for what he is, an entertainer. No different than the celebrities that disagree with us politically.

I have no respect for any entertainer that has been convicted of breaking multiple laws in two different states and scenarios. Makes me wonder how many times they didn't get caught. The warden that comes and speaks to our Hunter Safety Classes claims the average poacher probably gets caught once for every 10-15 violations. I also have no respect for celebrity hunters that take low percentage shots on game while being video taped for television, even when they claim they have "respect" for their quarry. Celebrity Draft dodgers......that's a whole nuther can of worms.
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Old August 20, 2013, 04:45 PM   #57
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To those who demand we all walk the straight and narrow, I suggest you clear the area around your glass houses of any rocks and sticks.

Ted Nugent is who he is, and it is better for us that he is pro 2nd Amendment than anti-2nd amendment!
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Old August 20, 2013, 05:29 PM   #58
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http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/nugent.asp

This is as close to the truth as you will find on the claim that Uncle Ted is a draft dodger....

Just aint so...
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Old August 20, 2013, 05:49 PM   #59
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Quote:
To those who demand we all walk the straight and narrow, I suggest you clear the area around your glass houses of any rocks and sticks.
There's a difference between someone who has the occasional indiscretion and someone who claims to represent us while constantly doing very irresponsible things in a very public way.
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Old August 20, 2013, 09:25 PM   #60
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Quote:
I think he's made an outright fool of himself and he's not the kind of political pundit who can be taken seriously if you don't agree with his views.
True. He is more out of control than some of the "activists" often derided on these boards.
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Old August 21, 2013, 07:48 AM   #61
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Quote:
...constantly doing very irresponsible things in a very public way.
Oh, come on, Ted is not constantly doing "very irresponsible things" in a very public way. I have read his comments and although his opinions are boldly stated they are far from irresponsible. As far as breaking the law, what we are actually talking about are minor hunting violations. For someone who hunts as much as Ted Nugent hunts, there are bound to be a few issues here and there. People have claimed he poaches - really, does anyone believe this is true? He's guilty of maybe taking a bad shot (bear incident) once, and killing a deer that was legally too small. I'm not about to shake my finger in shame for this anymore than I'm going to blast a police officer for occasionally speeding.

Regarding his comments about Travon Martin (without getting into details) - I've read his comments on this, and don't see where he has said anything irresponsible.

Other than those two things, I don't know what else you might be referring to.
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Old August 22, 2013, 11:37 AM   #62
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Reading these pages is very disheartening to say the least.

I'm sure there are a few here that actually know what they are talking about when it comes to Ted Nugent's activities(' in 'and ' out' of the spotlight). But I'd be willing to bet everything I posses that most are speaking from hearsay or what they've heard from the media(and we all know just how accurate the media is. Especially when dealing with pro gun/hunting people) and don't know for fact everything that's being spouted.

Can anyone here name any good things he has done? Especially things that have not been put in the spotlight?

Not just for our own 2nd amendment rights but for people in general?

I sometimes admire his lack of political correctness. IMO, 'PC' is becoming a huge part of the downfall of this country. Wish more people in the spotlight, especially our leaders had a pair big enough to speak their minds instead of meandering or 'soft-shoeing' their beliefs.

The 'Ted Nugent' topic comes up every so often here on TFL and the sides are usually quickly chosen. Is it to much to ask that before it comes up again next year that folks try to learn some good things Ted has done. I.E. for kids, handicapped people, schools and the less privileged etc. Every part(fact is...most parts) of his life never hits the media.

FWIW...I don't have an issue with what he said regarding the Travon Martin case either.
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Old August 22, 2013, 02:33 PM   #63
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Nutjobs like Nugent do nothing but harm to the pro gun movement. All he does is paint a bad image of all gun owners and give the anti-gun folks a caricature to make fun of.
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Old August 22, 2013, 03:21 PM   #64
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shortwave +1

Great perspective on Ted and as previously stated, he is a Patriot. I mostly have two measure of a person; How they stand with "their" Bible and where they stand on the Constitution. I don't suppose he has ever taken an oath to defend "our" Constitution but in his heart, he surely has. All politicians have and most, break their oath, every day. I'm not worried about those who do but instead, the mindset that votes for them. ....

Be Safe !!!
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Old August 22, 2013, 09:57 PM   #65
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We've trod this ground before, and it doesn't look like anyone's changing their minds. Closing this one before things get uncivil.
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