The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 16, 2013, 04:05 PM   #1
Boomer58cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2013
Location: closer than you think
Posts: 967
Is your chamber .223 or 5.56 and are you so sure?

I just recently read this Article. It's a bit long winded but well worth the read. Very interesting.
http://www.murraysguns.com/223vs556.htm

Boomer
__________________
The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war.
We're from the government, we're here to help
Boomer58cal is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 05:07 PM   #2
Levant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2008
Posts: 182
The article doesn't mention the Wylde chamberings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Wylde
Levant is online now  
Old August 16, 2013, 05:18 PM   #3
Boomer58cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2013
Location: closer than you think
Posts: 967
Good idea thanks.

Boomer
__________________
The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war.
We're from the government, we're here to help
Boomer58cal is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 07:55 PM   #4
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,544
Shakespeare wrote about the 223/5.56 controversiality.

"Much to do about nothing"
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 08:33 PM   #5
Boomer58cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2013
Location: closer than you think
Posts: 967
Everybody's a comedian
__________________
The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war.
We're from the government, we're here to help
Boomer58cal is offline  
Old August 17, 2013, 09:10 AM   #6
Budda
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2011
Location: Earth
Posts: 445
The only time I see trouble is when you are Ramboing lots of rounds in your AR to get your barrel hot. I have a .223 Bolt action and shoot lots of 5.56 out of it. because of the inherent slow rate of fire I never expect to see any trouble. But that is MY opinion. And MY rifle. Take it for what it is worth.
__________________
...They have the internet on computers now....-Homer Simpson-
Budda is offline  
Old August 17, 2013, 10:45 AM   #7
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 5,371
After reading the article, the differences between .223 and .556 are more dramatically clear.
They are different enough to cause concern.
Thanks for the link.
__________________
Lock the doors, they're coming in the windows.
g.willikers is offline  
Old August 17, 2013, 11:35 AM   #8
20thru45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2011
Location: In the first foothills of the Cascade mountains outside Portland OR
Posts: 155
barrel stamping

Most barrels are stamped with a caliber. some barrels may be stamped with both calibers. My stag has .556 Nato stamped on it or .556 X 45 nato. I'll run anything I want through it .223 or .556.
20thru45 is offline  
Old August 17, 2013, 11:56 AM   #9
Boomer58cal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2013
Location: closer than you think
Posts: 967
Well I won't lose any sleep over the difference, I just thought it was another thing to keep an eye on one feeding a new pet.

Boomer
__________________
The number one cause of death in the 20th century. 290,000,000 citizens were first disarmed and then murdered by their own governments. This number does not include those killed in war.
We're from the government, we're here to help
Boomer58cal is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 12:06 AM   #10
bamaranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 4,458
fast

I ran some NATO stamped FMJ thru my Mini-Mauser (stamped .223) a while back, and consistently missed a 6" plate at 200 yds. I'd thought the rifle or scope had gone sour.

Quality ammo at 100 yds yielded that the rifle was still MOA more or less with its best loads, and still zeroed.

I ran the NATO stuff thru my chrono...........eeks.......3400 fps!!!!!

My 55 gr reloads run a tad under 3000, factory ammo, all 55 gr bullet weights, run about 3100 fps. The nato stuff is clearly hotter in my rifle.

I will not do that again.
bamaranger is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 01:25 AM   #11
K1500
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2011
Posts: 158
5.56... And yes I'm sure.
K1500 is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 07:39 AM   #12
FALPhil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 10, 2007
Location: Racoon City
Posts: 933
Quote:
Most barrels are stamped with a caliber. some barrels may be stamped with both calibers. My stag has .556 Nato stamped on it or .556 X 45 nato. I'll run anything I want through it .223 or .556.
Wrong. Most barrels are marked with a chambering. If all that was done was to mark with a caliber, how would you know if the barrel would handle .223 Rem, 5.56 NATO, 22-250, 220 Swift, or 222 Rem Mag, all of which are used in barrels of .223 caliber?
__________________
_____________________________________________
Questions about 7.62 NATO and 308 Winchester? Click here.
FALPhil is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 02:43 PM   #13
barnbwt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2012
Posts: 747
Perhaps the real question is why are rifles designed and destined for civilian use cut for a chamber that could fit a nearly-identical but damaging cartridge used in also nearly-identical rifles? Especially considering the manufacturers know their customers buy the rifles to plink cheap milsurp through and then go hunting with?

The article's logic seems to be stating that the bullet hitting the lands is what causes the peak pressure that is damaging, so that would be an issue involving bullet weight and overall length. But mil-spec ammo is ~60gr, and 223 is the more variable caliber coming in over 70gr in certain loadings . If anything, shooting 223 in a 5.56 chamber would cause this problem, not the other way around. Also, the powder differences causing a longer sustained pressure wave will not stress a chamber additionally--the peak load is still the same, it's duration is not a factor in the stress formulae. However, a slower powder's long pressure curve can cause a kaboom if the chamber is allowed to unlock too early, which is easier to do with a slower powder.

Also worth mentioning is that the article is actually a sales pitch for Murray's chamber reaming services --just something to keep in mind. I'm not a professional ballistician or acclaimed gunwriter/gunsmith, but I have an engineering degree and enough sense to know when scientific explanations don't jive with their arguments. Really it sounds like Murray's argument is that black rifle owners should take the time to determine how their chamber was cut, and whether it will function safely with their ammo choices, and why. On that I wholeheartedly agree

Quote:
If all that was done was to mark with a caliber, how would you know if the barrel would handle .223 Rem, 5.56 NATO, 22-250, 220 Swift, or 222 Rem Mag, all of which are used in barrels of .223 caliber?
Measure the dang chamber and headspace because it could be unsafe from the factory regardless what gets stamped on it (let's not forget S&W made 7-shot cylinders with 6 flutes )

TCB

*Disclaimer; I'm not an AR15 owner, but I am building a 5.56 Beretta AR70, so I have been looking into this issue to reach my conclusion
__________________
"I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things."
-- Alex Rosewater
barnbwt is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 04:52 PM   #14
Sierra280
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2013
Location: Gardnerville, NV
Posts: 569
+1 to FALphil, this was discussed in Handloader in June. 5.56 NATO is loaded to a max pressure of 58,500psi, measured at the case mouth, that approximates 62,000psi chamber pressure. .223 is loaded for a max of 55000psi, 5.56 NATO also have longer throats. The higher 5.56 pressure combined with a shorter throat on sporting .223 rem chambers can cause pressures to jump well beyond 62000psi. Thus shooting .223 in a rifle stamped 5.56 should be just fine, but shooting a 5.56 in a rifle stamped .223 could be hazardous. Sporting rifles that can use both are CLEARY MARKED. If the barrel doesn't say .223Rem/5.56mm don't do it!!
Sierra280 is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 05:46 PM   #15
Hummer70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 22, 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 143
Can anyone document a catastrophic weapon failure with shooting 5.56 in a 223 or 223 in a 5.56?

The article is opinion, I want to see the facts and the pics of the destroyed rifles to prove it.
__________________
Distinguished Rifleman High Power & Smallbore Prone
President's Hundred (Rifle) US Palma Teams(2)
US Dewar Team (2),4 Man Natl.Champ Team SB Prone
Cert Test Dir. Sm Arms and Ammo,Aberdeen Pr Ground, Firefighter I, AC4HT
Hummer70 is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 08:45 PM   #16
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,576
Hummer70, in all the time during which I've been a member here, I've yet to read of a blow-up. At least no first-hand stories, anyway. Offhand, I don't recall any "I heards", either.
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 09:08 PM   #17
Mystro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 1,198
I have a Savage 10xp in 223. I might call them to get their official thought on the matter. Has anyone asked the their firearms manufacture what their offical position is on the interchangeability of these two calibers???
__________________
"I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you.

"Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country"
Mystro is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 09:43 PM   #18
603Country
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2011
Location: Thornton, Texas
Posts: 2,358
I don't shoot factory or military rounds in my 223, but if I had some 5.56 to shoot up I'd just measure to see if the round wasn't touching the lands. If not, I'd shoot em. A modern bolt action rifle should easily handle the higher pressure.
603Country is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 10:10 PM   #19
Sierra280
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2013
Location: Gardnerville, NV
Posts: 569
I would also like to know what a manufacture says, though I doubt the fact some rifles are stamped .223rem and others .223Rem/5.56mm is just discretionary.

Seriously?? You have to have a first hand account of a catastrophic failure to believe something firearm related is unsafe?!!?? Wow.
Sierra280 is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 10:26 PM   #20
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Saint Augustine, Florida
Posts: 1,270
We have a Remington 700 that is chambered in .308. We got some CPC 7.62 X 51 and we had an absolutely terrible time ejecting it. Bruised all of our hands. The person next to us at the range was shooting some in that chamber and told us the 7.62 cases have thicker walls and get stuck ejecting.

I don't know if this also happens with the .223/5.56
dakota.potts is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 11:04 PM   #21
Regular Joe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2008
Posts: 171
My AR fires .223/5.56, but it is none of the above. It's an ArmaLite, and they have their own chamber specs.
I have read of the Hornady Superformance 77 fr. load blowing up a Bushmaster that was indicated "5.56". It was a midlength system. Hornady carries a warning about this on their website.
They say the powder is slow, with a longer duration and pressure curve. The theory is that the action unlocked while pressure was still high, and ruptured the case head.
Hornady says their Superformance is made for bolt action rifles and rifle length gas systems.
As for 7.62x51 brass being thicker, it may or may not be. Exterior dimensions should be correct either way. In that caliber, the NATO spec. is actually lower pressure than the SAAMI .308 spec., due to the relative fragility of the M-14 actuating rod.
Regular Joe is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 11:19 PM   #22
FALPhil
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 10, 2007
Location: Racoon City
Posts: 933
Joe, not true. Click on the link in my sig line.

SAAMI publishes an official warning concerning the 223 Rem/5.56 x 45 issue. 308 Win and 7.62x51 are listed as interchangeable by SAAMI.
__________________
_____________________________________________
Questions about 7.62 NATO and 308 Winchester? Click here.
FALPhil is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 11:28 PM   #23
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,558
Quote:
Can anyone document a catastrophic weapon failure with shooting 5.56 in a 223 or 223 in a 5.56?
It's not likely to blow up a gun in working condition. The typical effect if the tolerances stack up the wrong way is blown/pierced primers.

Here's some more information...

March 2010 Guns & Ammo
State of the Art by Patrick Sweeney
“Some of you may not have heard: The .223 and the 5.56 are not the same. If you ever asked, there will be someone at the gun club who will discount that. “Why, I’ve shot lots of 5.56 ammo in my .223, and I haven’t had any problems.” Well, I’ve taught police classes for years now, and we see those problems frequently, most occurring in the summer.

Rifles with .223 Remington-dimensioned chambers suffer from increased pressure when using 5.56 mil-spec ammo, and we’ll get blown primers when the sun is baking down."
September 2010 Guns Magazine
Up On ARs (Understanding Chambers Let’s clear our throats) by Glen Zediker
(Summarized from a photo caption: If you load two rounds with identical 80 gr bullets, one to engage the lands on a NATO chamber and the other to engage the lands on a SAAMI minimum .223 Remington chamber the OAL of the two rounds will differ by more than 0.150”)

SAAMI commercial .223 Remington specs call for a considerably shorter leade than NATO specs. A shorter leade raises pressures. Compounding this, NATO-spec ammunition is nearly always loaded to higher pressures than commercial .223. Shooting 5.56mm mil-spec ammo in a SAAMI “minimum” .223 Remington chamber can increase chamber pressure 15,000 psi, or more. ... If loads were worked up in a rifle with a NATO chamber ... they will be over-pressure if used in a SAAMI chamber.
http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm
In Rifle Chambered For: ---- Do Not Use These Cartridges
223 Remington ---- 5.56mm Military, 222 Remington, 30 Carbine

http://www.winchester.com/lawenforce...spx?storyid=11
(Link no longer works)
223 Rem VS 5.56mm

There are a lot of questions about these two cartridges. Many people think they are identical - merely different designations for commercial and military. The truth is that, although somewhat similar, they are not the same and you should know the differences before buying either cartridge.

* The cartridge casings for both calibers have basically the same length and exterior dimensions.
* The 5.56 round, loaded to Military Specification, typically has higher velocity and chamber pressure than the .223 Rem.
* The 5.56 cartridge case may have thicker walls, and a thicker head, for extra strength. This better contains the higher chamber pressure. However, a thicker case reduces powder capacity, which is of concern to the reloader.
* The 5.56mm and .223 Rem chambers are nearly identical. The difference is in the "Leade". Leade is defined as the portion of the barrel directly in front of the chamber where the rifling has been conically removed to allow room for the seated bullet. It is also more commonly known as the throat. Leade in a .223 Rem chamber is usually .085". In a 5.56mm chamber the leade is typically .162", or almost twice as much as in the 223 Rem chamber.
* You can fire .223 Rem cartridges in 5.56mm chambers with this longer leade, but you will generally have a slight loss in accuracy and velocity over firing the .223 round in the chamber with the shorter leade it was designed for.
* Problems may occur when firing the higher-pressure 5.56mm cartridge in a .223 chamber with its much shorter leade. It is generally known that shortening the leade can dramatically increase chamber pressure. In some cases, this higher pressure could result in primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads and gun functioning issues.
* The 5.56mm military cartridge fired in a .223 Rem chamber is considered by SAAMI (Small Arm and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) to be an unsafe ammunition combination.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/556-vs-223-Chambers.htm
Many NATO cartridges have bullets that will become jammed into the rifling of a SAAMI chambering (the throat is too short). This is VERY DANGEROUS....
Walter Kuleck, author of The AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide, says it can cause function and safety issues.

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf

The big problem is that people often get away with it and therefore assume it must be a non-issue. Here are some reasons why people "dodge the bullet".

1. Some rifles marked .223 are, in reality, chambered and designed to safely fire 5.56 NATO. The Mini-14 (at least in the later models) is one of them, many of the AR style rifles are as well. If you contact the manufacturer they can provide that information.

2. Just because it's a bad idea doesn't mean that the gun will instantly explode. Guns are typically made with some safety margin built in. In this case some of the safety margin is being used to contain the extra pressure. That means that if something else goes wrong some of your safety margin will be otherwise engaged and a something that would normally be a non-issue could potentially result in a catastrophic incident.

The U.S. is not a C.I.P. regulated country and there is no similar proofing requirement in the U.S. We are regulated by SAAMI and the .223 SAAMI spec is 55,000psi. That means that firearms manufacturers in the U.S. can make .223 rifles to the .223 SAAMI pressure spec which is lower than the C.I.P .223 spec or the 5.56 NATO spec and can legally sell them without proof firing them.

The bottom line is that the pressure specs are different and the chamber specs are different. The chamber specs alone can result in higher pressure if a 5.56 round is fired in a .223 chamber. The combination of those two factors means that it's inadvisable to shoot 5.56 ammunition in a true .223 chamber, particularly if the gun is made by a SAAMI regulated manufacturer.

Stating that you haven’t heard of an incident and using that as a rationale for ignoring expert advice is not a sound way to approach dangerous situations. When experts tell you something is a bad idea, you don't do it anyway just because you haven't researched it carefully enough to find an incident that proves to you that they're telling the truth.

It’s irresponsible to disregard the advice of Winchester, SAAMI, Fulton Armory, et. al. simply based on opinion and the fact that you haven’t had trouble. YET....

Here are a few cases from the web...

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...5&postcount=23
" I almost blew up my brand new Remington VS 223 the first time I shot it, shooting 55 grain Malayan ammo. It was way too hot for the rifle, and I first blew a primer, continued shooting like a moron, and blew the whole case head off."
<<Note that this is EXACTLY what Winchester's advisory above states could happen.>>

But, you say, “Malayan ammo?” Others shot the same ammo with no problems. Why do you suppose some people find that it works great in their guns while this guy (and others) state that they had blown primers and other even more serious issues? It could be ANYTHING other than an ammo/chamber mismatch, right? Especially if you refuse to believe that maybe Winchester, Fulton Armory, Glen Zediker, Walter Kuleck and SAAMI might know a little about ammunition and firearms.

Similarly I found other incidents with Lake City ammo which is generally known for quality. Reports of blown primers and extraction problems--with others stating that they were using the same lot of ammunition with no problems. Again, why does the ammo work well in some guns and not others? Differences in the chamber dimensions perhaps? Not if you just KNOW that Fulton Armory is trying to steer us all wrong, I guess...

http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com...p/t-88006.html
Typically, in ARs it isn't dangerous, but .223 Remington chambers usually won't don't run well at all with 5.56mm NATO pressure ammo. The rifles will typically have failures to extract, blown primers, which will sometimes lock up the gun or make it not be able to fire. Sometimes that primer that's been blown out of the casing ends up under the trigger in the lower receiver and can keep the trigger from camming down when the shooter pulls the trigger to fire the rifle and the rifle won't fire.
http://tacticalunderground.us/forum/...=3305&start=20
Over at ZS, we had a fellow actually put it to the test. His rifle blew up.
Doing a search for "blown primers", surplus, and .223 will turn up a good number of additional incidents.
I found one online discussion where people were arguing back and forth about the quality of one particular flavor of surplus 5.56. Several kept saying it was great; very consistent and accurate, while others said they were having blown primers and extraction problems. Hmmm...what could that possibly be about?

Why do some folks get away with it? Face it, we don’t typically know the specific dimensions of the chambers in all the guns we shoot. As with the Mini, there are .223 stamped firearms that have 5.56 chambers to accomodate both flavors and the chamber variations are sufficient that if a manufacturer cuts their .223 chambers with a leade that's on the long side or if the particular flavor of surplus is not pushing the 5.56 OAL then there won't be a problem.

As Patrick Sweeney’s experiences demonstrate, this isn’t a HUGE mismatch, and in some cases it takes the slight extra pressure boost from shooting in warm temperatures to cause problems to show up.

In short, there are several ways that a person could "get away" with this inadvisable practice. On the other hand not everyone is so lucky.

I found several other experiences (and anyone who wants can almost certainly find more) that back up what the experts predict. So we have the advice of experts and the experiences of others to work from..

Looking through some of the incidents I found searching with the terms "blown primers", 'extraction', '223' and 'surplus', it's a bit funny and a bit sad. Nearly everyone blames everything except the one thing that the experts advise them of. They ignore the fact that the ammo works great in other guns and blame the blown primers and extraction problems on bad ammo.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/support/warning.aspx

DPMS recommends the use of high quality, domestically produced ammunition for best results and highest accuracy. For plinking and practice, we recommend only domestic, commercially manufactured ammunition.
...
The problem appears to be the bullet contour and the overall length of the cartridge, which is contacting the rifling before firing. <<leade length mismatch>> This is creating a gas port pressure and chamber pressure higher than recommended, therefore causing feeding and extraction problems...

This one is really amazing. DPMS actually figured out that there was a leade length mismatch (a known 5.56 in a 223 chamber issue), but they still chose to blame it on quality issues instead of noting the fact that they chamber their firearms for .223 and that using surplus 5.56 in a .223 chamber is known to cause exactly the problems they describe.

http://www.assaultweb.net/Forums/sho...8&postcount=15
Occaisionally some milsurp ammo in .223/5.56 can be too hot for hunting/target firearms. Some of the Chinese Norinco was a case in point and the pressure/blast was excessive for B/A sporters, [we had reports of blown primers, excessive fouling and jams.]
If you're willing to give the experts a bit of credence then the picture suddenly becomes very clear.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 18, 2013, 11:53 PM   #24
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 875
Quote:
Can anyone document a catastrophic weapon failure with shooting 5.56 in a 223 or 223 in a 5.56?
Not a catastrophic failure, but I can vouch for one instance, an extended family member of mine fired 5.56 ammo in a Savage .223, after the first round was fired the bolt was locked closed and would not open, he took it to a gunsmith to have it opened and the stuck case removed.

Quote:
Has anyone asked the their firearms manufacture what their offical position is on the interchangeability of these two calibers???
Yes, some time ago, I called the manufacturer of both of my .223 chamber rifles, they both say not to fire 5.56 ammo in them. The NEF Handy Rifle in .223 specifically states this in rather large warning.

This warning can be found easily and often from firearm manufacturers and ammunition producers, the warning is based in real word facts and measured pressures, yet some people continue to ignore it.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason

Last edited by iraiam; August 19, 2013 at 12:06 AM.
iraiam is offline  
Old August 19, 2013, 08:23 AM   #25
Panfisher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 30, 2010
Location: Missouri
Posts: 717
My Remington R-15 and my NEF Handi Rifle are both marked .223 Rem. Since I am too cheap to buy factory ammo I haen't tried any 5.56 marked stuff. I do however pick up and buy used 5.56 cases, but typically trim them all back to the same .223 rem length and happily go on with life and a mid-range loading of 55-60 grain bullets with never a look back.
Panfisher is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13322 seconds with 8 queries