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Old August 16, 2013, 04:39 PM   #26
Levant
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If you have any questions how muscle memory affects your draw and presentation, try doing it blind folded or with your eyes shut (of course using a safety spotter). At CQB distance your muscle memory should still put you on your target with our without your eyes open. Remember to use your same shooting stance. My experience is that CQB engagement is always off of muscle memory opposed to precision sight alignment.
I play at playing guitar. There are chords that I just can't go to from an open hand but I have practiced hours and hours to get from chord x to target chord. If I try to go from chord y to target chord my muscles won't do it. But there are multiple chord changes with the same scenario. In other words, my muscle memory can handle multiple similar actions if I put in the work.

So, if this guy is truly practicing hard with each carry option he uses, he can certainly be effective with any or all of them; all that he has to do is be very aware of which mode he is carrying in at the time.
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Old August 16, 2013, 05:37 PM   #27
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For the sake of simplicity for me I have two primary methods of concealed carry. In Wait Band, and pocket carry. There are some rare times that my pocket gun is in a belly band type holster IWB where my primary carry usualy is. It is in a place that is familiar for my mucle memory to work with.

Most times I carry two guns. If it is uber hot like it gets here in the summer with tripple digit heat, and high humidity then I only pocket carry.

If someone else carries 7 guns 7 ways, on 7 different days. My hat is off to them.
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Old August 19, 2013, 04:13 PM   #28
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Women can have a variety of purses and shoes, and nobody says a thing. I see no problem with men wearing a variety of guns and holsters.
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Old August 20, 2013, 06:35 AM   #29
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Women can have a variety of purses and shoes, and nobody says a thing. I see no problem with men wearing a variety of guns and holsters
This is America after all.
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Old August 20, 2013, 01:31 PM   #30
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My guns all have one thing in common

No external safeties. Every single one of them can be drawn and fired without manipulation of an external safety. The following are the typical guns in my carry rotation.

Springfield XDS 9mm (has a grip safety but nothing to swipe)
Glock 27 Gen 4
Glock 26 Gen 4
Glock 29 Gen 4
Glock 23 Gen 3
Ruger LCP
Smith 642

I have Remora Holsters, Pocket Holsters, IWB holsters, kydex belt holsters, paddle holsters, and some holsters with retention devices. When I dress and pick my gun I spend about a 20 draws that morning to get me in the mindset of what I am carrying and how I am carrying it.

I have trained with every combination I carry to include reloads with magazines, speed loaders, and speed strips. At the end of the day it comes down to training. I find the most difficult draw is on the small guns in pocket holsters. I will only use these with pants that allow an easy draw.

My variety of sizes and types of guns allows me to carry something every day which I believe is the most important thing.

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Old August 21, 2013, 07:42 PM   #31
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I usually carry two guns. Both XDMc.45. One at 9 one at 3, ish Iwb. Deeper conceal (hot weather) I may go to two XDs, same place. All work the same, mags interchange between the sets. I'd feel kinda dumb to have an extra mag but a broken gun if things went south.

On a very rare occasion I may substitute an LCP, but it goes in the same spot 95% of the yime.
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Old August 22, 2013, 06:08 AM   #32
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I on occasion carry two firearms at the same time. Usually its reserved for times of higher risk the most recent being the Zimmerman verdict.

Many folks feel that carrying two guns is over the top and they have a point. What are the odds of needing one gun? Now of those miniscule numbers who will need a gun, how many will have their gun break or have a catastrophic malfunction? The odds are awful low. That being said, I often find it comforting to have another gun. One to share perhaps or for access from a different position.
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Old August 23, 2013, 03:30 PM   #33
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Shoot, I don't even know which firearm I'm going to carry when I get up in the morning.
All I know for sure is I am going to carry.
Somedays it's eenie meanie minie moe.
One thing they have in common is they all operate with a simple pull of the trigger, no safeties to operate or slides to rack, and I carry them all at 4 o'clock position.
Today it's a HK 45C.
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Old August 24, 2013, 12:11 PM   #34
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Different triggers? If so you cannot be as good as you could be if you carried the same gun or one of different size but the same trigger like the XD or glock.
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Old August 24, 2013, 12:19 PM   #35
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I remember a guy ..............

Quote:
Originally Posted by daddyo View Post
Different triggers? If so you cannot be as good as you could be if you carried the same gun or one of different size but the same trigger like the XD or glock.
Agreed 100% with this. Consistent operation with the same trigger, triumphs changing them around. If you want to change around, train with the gun accordingly.
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Old August 24, 2013, 12:51 PM   #36
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Although most of my carry and home defense pistols are DA/SA because that is my preference, I don't see a real problem with carrying a different style of pistols as long as you stay familiar with them. Can any of you remember a single instance where you had a spoon in your hand and accidentally tried to use it as a fork? I know I know, high stress situation, adrenaline, yada yada, but honestly I see the whole thing kind of blown out of proportion. At one point in my life I was driving an old manual pickup truck, and just as often drove an automatic transmission 4 door sedan. Driving anywhere can be a high stress situation and often you have to react quickly. I cant remember ever forgetting to downshift or put the truck in neutral when braking when driving the manual truck. Before I sold my striker fired SR9C I alternated between that and a DA/SA Sig 232. My range is often empty so I get to practice high stress drills and quick draws. I cant remember a single instance where I drew one pistol and tried to operate it like the other. I'm not saying that there are no advantages to carrying the same type of pistol, but human beings are capable of some pretty spectacular things, and to say that they are not capable of operating two different styles of pistols under stress is short changing them.

Along the same lines of thought as the people who say not to carry different types of pistols, I guess it's not a good idea to carry a DA/SA pistol because of the transition from one type of trigger pull to the next. I guess Sig should convert all their pistols to stiker fired or SAO because we as human beings are not capable of handing the DA/SA transition. Like I said before, I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion.

Last edited by Dragline45; August 24, 2013 at 01:02 PM.
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Old August 24, 2013, 01:07 PM   #37
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Most of my carry options consist of two designs, the 1911 and the Glock, not including my BUG. I never have issues knowing what to do as the two primaries feel completely different when drawn, and yes I practice dry-firing. The 1911 is automatic as to my thumb snicking off the safety, just as the Glock is automatic not reaching for one at all, pretty much by the feel of the weapon when drawing. But, they are both located in the same position, which I find most comfortable. I doubt I'd ever "switch it up" as to positions, now, though I must admit, I find Sevens' idea of this possibly being a ruse with empty guns intriguing.
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Old August 24, 2013, 01:26 PM   #38
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I never understood the logic behind knowing that keeping the different guns operational system similar is a good thing only to ignore the importance of having a consistent trigger pull. One that you have trained with extensively.

Someone use to the long smooth pull of a DA revolver suddenly forced to fight with a 1911 might let a round go early because they were use to the DA pull and got a short light one instead.

I train to be as good as possible with my chosen carry gun. Becoming intimate with the guns feel, how it points, its trigger pull, all contribute to that quest. I feel its not possible to be equally as effective with multiple guns as it is with one gun, given the same practice time. Then you have the problem of that surprise attack that triggers your subconscious gun manipulation and trigger stroke. Which gun will your subconscious select when it signals your hand to start pulling the trigger? Hope its the gun of the week.
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Old August 24, 2013, 01:39 PM   #39
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Along the same lines of thought as the people who say not to carry different types of pistols, I guess it's not a good idea to carry a DA/SA pistol because of the transition from one type of trigger pull to the next. I guess Sig should convert all their pistols to stiker fired or SAO because we as human beings are not capable of handing the DA/SA transition. Like I said before, I think the whole thing is blown way out of proportion.
Lots of things change when the pressure of stopping the bad guy or getting killed is working on you. I personally saw my shooting AND ability to think deteriorate considerably under competitive pressure so I can imagine life and death. I don't think its blown out of anything. Its real and it cost good guy lives every single day I bet.

We know that something causes police to shoot really crappy under duress. Its not out of the realm of possibility for sa/da to be part of it.

I would love to see stats on officer shooting with da/sa guns and those with sa or safe action triggers.
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Old August 24, 2013, 01:49 PM   #40
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We know that something causes police to shoot really crappy under duress. Its not out of the realm of possibility for sa/da to be part of it.
Many police officers don't shoot well simply because they only shoot during qualifying twice a year. Myself as well as many others prefer DA/SA pistols, to say using one is a flaw or drawback is absolutely ridiculous considering it is what I train with and have become proficient with. Just because it may not work for you does not mean it does not work for others.

Quote:
only to ignore the importance of having a consistent trigger pull.
Quote:
Its real and it cost good guy lives every single day I bet.
If only that trigger pull wasn't DA/SA, all those good guys would still be alive today. "LORD, WHY COULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN A PLAIN OLD SA TRIGGER".

I have absolutely no problem transitioning from DA/SA. Out of the 16rds in my gun only one is DA, after that I have 15 consistent trigger pulls. Do you really think the transition from DA/SA is the difference between life and death? I mean seriously.

Last edited by Dragline45; August 24, 2013 at 09:53 PM.
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Old August 24, 2013, 05:44 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by daddyo
Different triggers? If so you cannot be as good as you could be if you carried the same gun or one of different size but the same trigger like the XD or glock.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine
Agreed 100% with this. Consistent operation with the same trigger, triumphs changing them around. If you want to change around, train with the gun accordingly.
I'm just gonna hafta risk it. I reckon which ever one I'm carrying will go bang.
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Old August 25, 2013, 06:39 AM   #42
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If only that trigger pull wasn't DA/SA, all those good guys would still be alive today. "LORD, WHY COULDN'T IT HAVE BEEN A PLAIN OLD SA TRIGGER".

I have absolutely no problem transitioning from DA/SA. Out of the 16rds in my gun only one is DA, after that I have 15 consistent trigger pulls. Do you really think the transition from DA/SA is the difference between life and death? I mean seriously.
My point was that folks die because they fail to put rounds on target before they are themselves mortally wounded. We train to increase our consistency in many aspects involved with getting off a good shot. When anything breaks down in that shooting cycle our shot isn't accurate or is less accurate. When our shot isn't accurate or is less accurate in a life and death situation it can and does lead to us loosing.

The SA/DA transition, is believed to cause a low/hi effect in impact points under stressful shooting situations. This happens with the first two shots, arguably the most important of a violent encounter.

So we strive for consistency because it leads to speed and accuracy yet many break this by changing guns or holsters or carry locations daily. Taken to the extreme this quest for consistency is applied to trigger pull.

You poke fun about it and thats fine. I'll stay with my consistent trigger and you keep that inconsistent one. You guys keep platooning your carry guns, I'll stay consistent. You guys keep rotating carry locations and holsters, I'll stay consistent. Will being consistent save my life in a life and death scenario, maybe. Will being consistent give me a better chance at survival, probably. Is consistency better than inconsistent, you betcha.
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Old August 25, 2013, 06:51 AM   #43
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I'm just gonna hafta risk it. I reckon which ever one I'm carrying will go bang.
And you will likely fight well with it. We are talking slight advantages IMO.

Example......I carry openly at work (not LE). I practice drawing from that holster every day. I'm pretty fast and consistent with that rig. The other day I was out in public carrying in a fanny pack. I was just relaxing when a lightning bolt struck very close causing a huge flash and giant boom almost instantly. My hand went for my work gun subconsciously. While I loved that reaction, it made glaringly obvious what those experts say about consistency. Without thinking I went for the gun I draw most. It also would have cost me a few 10ths if that lightening was a bad guy jumping out from behind a dumpster or something. Sure I would have recovered and if not already incapacitated put up a fight but it does speak well for being consistent.

I would rather have those extra tenths than rotate my firearms for carry.
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Old August 25, 2013, 07:34 AM   #44
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I remember a guy ..............

^ agreed, once again. Similar thing happened to me also.

I carry appendix style at work because I have to. I carry strong side 4:00 when IWB and 3:00 OWB.

That transition from 4:00 in to 3:00 out isn't concerning. That's how I've trained mostly. Appendix? Not so much. Waiting on a better holster from www.phlster.com I purchased the "skeleton".
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Old August 25, 2013, 09:30 AM   #45
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My CCW is always in the same place no matter which one I'm carrying and all my holsters have the FBI tilt.
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Old August 25, 2013, 09:37 AM   #46
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My CCW is always in the same place no matter which one I'm carrying and all my holsters have the FBI tilt.
Nice, I'm not gonna lie. I wish I could always carry strong side. What I do at work doesn't permit me though. Rather carry appendix than get made or not carry at all.
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Old August 25, 2013, 03:33 PM   #47
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My CCW is always in the same place no matter which one I'm carrying and all my holsters have the FBI tilt.
I always conceal carry in the same place as well. I just open carry more often while at work. The majority of my training is geared toward my biggest threat which is while at work. I do of course practice taking the gun from the fanny pack but not nearly as much as the ordinary draw from my strong side hip holster.

Still upon being startled I reverted to the most practiced position. This is why I believe that changing guns is a problem. Same position and cant is awesome but different grips and triggers is not.

I love my other guns as well but its not worth giving up any advantage to my adversary.
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Old August 25, 2013, 03:50 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by daddyo
I always conceal carry in the same place as well. I just open carry more often while at work. The majority of my training is geared toward my biggest threat which is while at work. I do of course practice taking the gun from the fanny pack but not nearly as much as the ordinary draw from my strong side hip holster.

Still upon being startled I reverted to the most practiced position. This is why I believe that changing guns is a problem. Same position and cant is awesome but different grips and triggers is not.
Here's where I have a very slight advantage over you. I also open carry at work and carry the same handguns in the same holsters in the same position that I CC. I just throw my shirt tail over the piece when I leave work.
Zero transitioning is very comforting knowing exactly where my handgun is at all times. And like I said before, they all operate in a similar fashion.
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Old August 25, 2013, 04:42 PM   #49
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Here's where I have a very slight advantage over you. I also open carry at work and carry the same handguns in the same holsters in the same position that I CC. I just throw my shirt tail over the piece when I leave work.
Zero transitioning is very comforting knowing exactly where my handgun is at all times. And like I said before, they all operate in a similar fashion.
Agreed mostly. I know where my gun is however under a surprise situation I would rather have my subconscious reaction be to my duty gun. Again thats the area I believe to be my biggest threat. You certainly have an advantage while concealed carrying and under surprise attack pressures. I have worked hard to reduce the chances of a surprise attack by using Situational Awareness and limiting my exposure. Kinda a pick your poison situation. Since I can't conceal my duty rig out in public and I'm not prepared to quit my job, that is a definite hole in the defenses. Even if I carried strong side hip concealed, there would be the same delay causing hitch during any surprise attack.
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Old August 25, 2013, 05:04 PM   #50
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I don't think its the smartest thing in the world to constantly change up your gear but its hardly a crisis. I would say that to the degree that its necessary due to season, weather, dress, then sure- but to wear a different weapon several days a week just seems very undisciplined.
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