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Old August 24, 2013, 08:35 AM   #51
Hawg Haggen
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Purist here. If you want a hunting rifle, please go and buy one. Thanks. If you want a military rifle, buy one of those. Very good. But PUHLEEEZE don't bubba a nice milsurp rifle. No, I don't want to hear your side of it.
Smith Corona 1903A3

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Old August 24, 2013, 08:53 AM   #52
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Takedown double set trigger Steyr M95--that's how you do it. This is the direct inspiration for my project (the stock at least)

Purists, remember that the "worthless" guns you deride were once worth as much as the unmodified guns, before they were made scarcer by modifications. Enfield's were sold out of barrels as well as Mausers--the guns were worthless trash that had to gotten rid of after the war.

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Old August 24, 2013, 11:25 PM   #53
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barnbwt: You make some very good points. I can't deny that many of you guys created some attractive guns that do have unique character.

My comment about many guns that lost their character, was only about original military character, because that's the only real appeal for many of us.
So many Enfields or some 7mm Mausers I've seen (mostly on Gunbroker) with hacked off front sights baffles me, but often the cutting was done by previous owners.

I just wish that many more of these were still in the original configuration, which would keep prices more stable. Quite frankly, my main regret is not having the gun bug decades ago when numerous types of surplus ammo were both cheap and available.

Last edited by Ignition Override; August 24, 2013 at 11:36 PM.
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Old August 25, 2013, 06:25 AM   #54
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Old August 25, 2013, 08:30 AM   #55
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Ar’s are one thing, old military rifles are another. I don’t put a bunch of lights, handles and lasers on my AR’s but high end barrels and scopes are mounted.
As far as old guns the only one I have modified is my 03-A3. I bought it as is and at the time I wished it was stock but now after having it for over 20 years even if I had the parts to put it back to original condition I wouldn’t change it,
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 03 sights.jpg (121.1 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg 03 rear sight 2.jpg (109.4 KB, 30 views)
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Old August 26, 2013, 04:55 PM   #56
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I've said this before.
Today,for the most part,it does not make economic sense to build a rifle on a milsurp,especially if you are paying a smith to do it.

But,before folks get wrapped up in disdain for Bubba,I suggest you take a long,hard look at the history of the bolt action sporting rifle.Wnnington and Remchester were not necessarily the innovators .

A large part of the crotchety old local gunsmith,stock suppliers like Bishop and Fajen,barrel makers like Douglas and Obermeyer,reamer suppliers like Clymer triggermakers like Timney and Canjar,Brownell's,etc,pretty much made the resources we have today economically feasible as enterprises.Reworking the Milsurp was the market.

One of the big draws to NRA membership was a means to buy DCM bolt rifles,most in military trim,and,I suppose some of the milsurp purists would not recognize or appreciate an original NRA DCM sporter.Or a Sedgley Springfield.Griffin and Howe Sporter?Suppose PO Ackley would have been successful?Would we have Trinidad State Junior College's gunsmith school?

Yes,its true,a lot of nice milsurps ended up in poorly fitted,strangely shaped Herters stocks with enormous rollover Monte Carlos,bleach bottle white lines,drill press semi-precision? drill and tap jobs,etc.But,to the Bubba,each one was his own treasure.

How many of you got the Mauser or Springfield your dad or grandpa built?

Now,think about this.If this cottage industry around converting milsurps had not grown to something of an economic force,

Why in the world would our government permit a bunch of cheap milsurp bolt guns to be imported ? I'll bet Winnington and Remchester did not lobby for the import.

Nope,if it were not for the Bubba market,near all of your precious pieces of history would have been chop sawed,sheared,torched and mangled to become Honda Super 90 cc connecting rods and swingarms.

I think the C+Rs would be far more rare than they are today,as the channels of import...oh,like Springfield Sporters,would never have been established.

Your Bubba is the 50's and 60's and 70's NRA member and rifle enthusiast.Some of those Bubbas bought an old South Bend,maybe a band saw.Some even bought a mill.Maybe,along the way,Bubba had some "learning pieces".But it is Bubba that evolved into the man who can thread a barrel,cut a chamber,fit wood to steel,and he learned on milsurps.Remember that if you know a good one,next time you ask him for help.

Now,I'm going to stay friendly,and not express contempt for folks who only have the skills to throw down money and buy what someone else has made.

Or gather them all up and put them in a safe so they can "have them"

Because there is room enough for all of us to have fun.

It is generally a form of being rude to make negative comments about another man's spouse,kids,dogs,pickup,and in particular,his taste in guns.

A whole lot of folks are happy and proud with their modern bolt action sporting rifles.Enjoy!!They are fine,functional firearms.

For my own tastes,I like controlled round feed and forgings.No put down on any other rifle.Most modern bolt rifles are redesigned for manufacturability.They shoot real good,but for me,I just do not connect.

Last edited by HiBC; August 27, 2013 at 04:45 AM.
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Old September 10, 2013, 09:03 AM   #57
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I'm in the "It's your rifle, If you want to be a total idiot with it that's your business" camp. Having said that I prefer to go in the opposite direction when possible.

Which do you prefer?



Yes it is the same rifle.
Also when Bubba works his magic they legally are no longer c&r firearms
While it is true that I prefer as issued military rifles I would not find owning something like this objectionable.

Last edited by Rumpelhardt; September 10, 2013 at 11:25 PM.
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Old September 10, 2013, 12:36 PM   #58
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The Enfield pics on top and bottom constitute the greatest defeat suffered by British arms since Yorktown. Especially the top pic. **** what was Bubba thinking? Anyway, these few pics convinced me even more - I'm a purist.
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Old September 10, 2013, 12:52 PM   #59
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http://bobsstuffandnonsense.blogspot...branch-no.html
I haven't done anything in a while but this is what I did to counteract Bubba with this one
Undoing his handy work is far harder than his messing it up in the first place but it was fun and I learned a lot about No4 Lee-Enfield's in the process,
As far as forged receivers and controlled round feeding you have Winchester, CZ as well as the various commercially produced Mauser actions. There are I'm sure more out there but these are the ones that came to my mind immediately.
One of my favorite rifles of all are the pre64 Model 70 target rifles. I am seriously considering building a semi clone on a more modern Model 70 action. If I can pull it off it will of coarse be chambered in 30-06.

Last edited by Rumpelhardt; September 10, 2013 at 02:20 PM.
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Old September 10, 2013, 06:19 PM   #60
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I actually like the looks of that last enfield pic. it must be a good sporter.
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Old September 10, 2013, 07:05 PM   #61
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Do a lot of guys out there feel they have a duty to preserve the milsurps? I don't particularly feel any need to buy something just to look at it occasionally and revel in the fact that "I OWN IT !!" Guns are built to be used and enjoyed and I intend to do that until I can't any longer. A friend sent me a very nice 03-A3 today and I intend to shoot it tomorrow...but if I were to decide to shorten the barrel, add different sights and stock, put a boss on the barrel, or whatever whimsy I could contrive....I would do it with no regrets and have fun with it. The friend that gave it to me would support my decision as we are both getting older and want to enjoy whatever we can in life while we still can.
I don't run a museum and have to desire to do such. In fact maybe some of the purists will enjoy the fact that their originals will appreciate more in value as the bubbas lower the supply of originals.
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Old September 10, 2013, 07:36 PM   #62
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My No.1 MK III

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Old September 10, 2013, 11:19 PM   #63
Rumpelhardt
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I have three surplus rifles and they get used more than my "civilian" rifles. They are far more fun to shoot and a lot more interesting.
As far as value my kids may benefit from any they might have but I simply do not sell my firearms once I buy them. I have regretted selling the few that I have sold and will not do it again.
I have a very strong interest in both the first and second world wars and these rifles were a big part of that history. As such yes I do feel that it is important to preserve them as much as possible.
The biggest joke of all is that Bubba's efforts rarely shoot as well as a properly set up military issue rifle.

Last edited by Rumpelhardt; September 10, 2013 at 11:54 PM.
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Old September 11, 2013, 08:23 AM   #64
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I can't for the life of me understand why someone would want to alter, say, a Russian Mosin-Nagant that some Soviet soldier may have humped all the way to Berlin during WWII.

These relics were part of a history whose living descendants are disappearing now at a rapid pace, the last WWI veteran died a few years ago and WWII veterans are now at least in their 80s. Soon these non-living relics will be all we have left.

Just my opinion, worth every cent you paid for it.
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Old September 11, 2013, 09:04 AM   #65
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Bubbas VS Purists.

It is an interesting part of human psychology that we ascribe significance to an inanimate object which was by pure happenstance in the possession of a person who did something we've deemed important.

Of equal interest to me is that there seems to be a certain lower class of object to which this significance no longer applies. For instance, we don't seem to care about the socks that the soldier wore.

We could easily manufacture those same firearms today, likely to a quality and aesthetic level far beyond anything available from the time period. More compelling, we could intentionally manufacture them to be virtually indistinguishable from the "genuine" antique firearms and yet there would be no mystique, no outcry if someone modified them.
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Old September 11, 2013, 09:15 AM   #66
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To the OP – Great Thread!!!

Being a long time 03 FFL holder I hate to see any old battle rifle bubba’d but if a person converts one and does so in a competent professional manner then OK – it’s their gun.
I do cringe when I see some of the more rare examples modified.
I have no real issues when some one takes a bare receiver that was is in marginal condition and use that receiver to build a completely new firearm from it.
Example would be a K98 or Mosin receiver.
I have modified a few receivers into other calibers but they were built from basic parts guns.
The bottom line is – it is their gun and money and no matter how much chest beating and hollering we do that fact will not change.
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Old September 11, 2013, 09:33 AM   #67
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For instance, we don't seem to care about the socks that the soldier wore.
Ahhhh...I can see you've never met a Civil War reenactor.
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Old September 11, 2013, 09:43 AM   #68
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Bubbas VS Purists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by csmsss View Post
Ahhhh...I can see you've never met a Civil War reenactor.
As a matter of authenticity, yes, but I don't see anyone preserving the socks worn in combat because soon they'll be all we have left. Even in reenactments, they're wearing replica socks, not genuine civil war socks that carry provenance because a soldier wore them at Gettysburg.
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Old September 11, 2013, 10:50 AM   #69
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I can't for the life of me understand why someone would want to alter, say, a Russian Mosin-Nagant that some Soviet soldier may have humped all the way to Berlin during WWII.
Because I can't tell the difference between one that was "carried to Berlin" and one that murdered Polish officers or stole food from peasants leaving them to starve, or one that spent its entire life guarding a gulag....

And it wasn't the rifle that did it, it just happened to be in the hands of PEOPLE who did those things (and more).

I don't hate Bubba for modifying what someone else sees as a sacred historical artifact, I hate Bubba for doing a crappy job of it.
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Old September 11, 2013, 12:16 PM   #70
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Just for the sake of clarity when "Bubba" comes into a discussion about firearms to me there is the intimation of a high level incompetence.
In my mind there is a big difference between a "Bubba'd rifle and one that was tastefully and competently sporterized.
I've seen many sporterized military rifles that I would be very proud to own. Particularly from the late 1940s the 50s. In the pictures I posted above the top is all Bubba the bottom is a well done sporter.
I strongly believe that it is better to preserve the complete rifles still out there but "To each their own" as they say.

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Old September 11, 2013, 04:37 PM   #71
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I bought a .303 that was chopped when I was younger. Somebody cut down the stock but left pretty much everything else the same. It really shot well considering there were so many stamps on it that it appeared to have been around the world 7 times. At the time I thought it was one of the worst military rifles to hunt deer with, but I remembered the cumbersome Russian I started out with. That .303 was really a good solid deer rifle and I would have taken that over a new Winchester or Marlin lever action in bad weather (Had a bad experience with a Marlin in the snow). Times were different when I was a kid. We were not the spoiled brats that are the youth of today. We pretty much worked and saved for our own deer rifle and a lot of adults were in the same boat. That is one of the reasons that so many surplus rifles became hunting rifles. It is no big deal. There are tens of thousands of pristine military rifles out there. The guns are in collections and you just are not aware of them. Cut up a Russian rifle? In a heartbeat. There will be plenty of them around for a long time. What the younger crowd does not realize is that they have been here a long time. The problem is they are so unadaptable to a hunting rifle that nobody wanted to cut them up. The only worse rifle from the military to turn into a deer rifle would be the MAS36, Maybe we should take a poll for the worst one.
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Old September 11, 2013, 04:59 PM   #72
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actually if there was a decent sporter foregrip and a way to mount optics on one without permenantly modifying it I would sporter my MAS36 in an instant. it's got a bent bolt already and the action(at least on mine) is quite smooth and 7.5x54 is about the same as 7.62x54R ballistically.

but there is no such way so I'm stuck with my MAS36 and it's crappy sights
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Old September 11, 2013, 11:57 PM   #73
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I converted an MAS36 into a rifled 20 Ga slug gun for a friend. Coming up with a decent safety that was not hokey was the worst part. I have seen articles on other caliber change overs for this rifle, but it is hardly a first choice by the majority for a deer rifle. It is a matter of what you want. My sister gave me a carcano that was in the barn when they bought the place. It is really ugly, but I scoped it (All you purists can breath now, I am sure Lee Harvey did not own it) and kill deer with it. Not my first choice to hunt with, but heck it was free. Good rifle for rainy days cause it won't look any worse than it does.
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Old September 12, 2013, 03:25 PM   #74
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All numbers matching original finish of anything should not be touched. Too many re-arsenaled, botched bubbas, etc; are available.
I hate to see it done to some less common rifles also. A MN of with no special attributes? Best of luck to you, your hacksaw, and your file.
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Old September 15, 2013, 10:09 AM   #75
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My father converted a 1903-A3 into a beautiful target rifle back in the 1960s... if I recall correctly, he kept a second 03A3 in original condition. Back then, these were very common, and I think the feeling was that they didn't ALL have to be saved original for posterity. If he were alive today and had the same two Springfields, I'm not sure if he would have done it - but he might, that's what he did. Personally, I think this job was worth donating a Springfield for... it's certainly more valuable to me than it would be in original condition, regardless of its value to others.

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