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Old August 16, 2013, 02:29 PM   #51
ClydeFrog
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Who you calling "people"?...

Ha ha ha!
Seriously, thanks for the correction. Lee Paige was the former DEA agent(who by all documented accounts was "undercover" when he did the gun safety briefing).

I agree with the TFL members that new students need firearms to be shown how to use them but many teaching points or methods can use ASP red guns/Ring guns for safety.
I had a security instructor a few years ago who claimed he was a former deputy sheriff & involved in 2 use of force shootings. He also said he was a US Army veteran(special forces/18 series).
His classroom style & teaching methods were somewhat lacking in my opine.
He constantly waved a unloaded Glock 19 around & had it in his hand for about 75% of the class.
I didn't put much stock into his lesson plan(s) but it irked me that new gun owners/students would take away a lot of nonsense & bad techniques.
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Old August 16, 2013, 10:51 PM   #52
Aguila Blanca
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Pax -

Re: your post #48:

I take it, then, that you never handle a firearm in a gun shop, and run like hell if you see anyone else pick up a gun in a gun shop.

I also take it that you only clean and service your firearms at a range, where the muzzles can always be kept pointed down-range at a berm or backstop.
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Old August 16, 2013, 11:26 PM   #53
JimmyR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax, post 43
The actual rule you should be teaching your students is, "do not handle firearms – any firearm, loaded or not – unless you have a safe direction."

Quote:
Originally Posted by pax, post 48
If you (generic you, not specific you) are going to allow students to handle firearms inside your classroom, you absolutely must have a genuine, real, definite, true safe direction in which to point the gun. That includes a solid backstop that would definitely stop the bullet from bouncing into a student's arm.
While I am by no means anything more than a beginner on my best day, I think I have to disagree with Pax's absolutist statements from above. While the 4 rules should be followed EVERY time, I think we add more to the rules, making them impossible to follow.

Case in point: Rule #1 is often stated "All guns are always loaded." This is a logical fallacy, and, IMHO, silly. I know that my gun is capable of having the ammunition removed. I can remove the magazine, rack the slide, open the cylender, run the extractor, and remove all ammunition from the gun. By advocating a rule that is PATENTLY FALSE, we are teaching people to BREAK THE RULES anytime we advocate dry fire practice, cleaning a weapon, etc. I do not believe hyperbolic rules lead to better safety, but rather lead to more carelessness.

In the same vein, it seems as though Pax's statements of what a "Safe direction" are equally hyperbolic, pointed out by Aguila Blanca's rather pointed rebuttal.
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Old August 17, 2013, 12:16 AM   #54
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on the other hand, no one would be safe when handling a gun in a gunstore. gosh, just putting it in a safe violates some rule about keeping it in a safe direction.
never know, your unloaded 22 mighht go off, put a round thorugh the roof and it might come down next door and hit the neighbor in his bomb shelter.


air soft isnt going to get you trained on a real gun. Not one weapon ive touched in a gunstore needed plastic pellets or electric batteries to use.
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Old August 17, 2013, 10:19 PM   #55
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Jimmy, I agree. Sort of.
Quote:
By advocating a rule that is PATENTLY FALSE, we are teaching people to BREAK THE RULES anytime we advocate dry fire practice
I think the rule is better phrased as TREAT all guns as though loaded. Dry firing is fine, but you should dryfire in a "safe" direction. I dry-fire into a refrigerator. The bullet may come back at me, but it probably isn;t leaving the house. Pax's definition of a safe direction isn't feasible IMO. Most of the outdoor ranges I have ever gone to are not safe according to her strict interpretation. Almost all of them have rocks of some size visible in the embankment. Many have steel or concrete somewhere around the target. If thousands of rounds of FMG have been put into a concentrated area of the bank, it is hard to imagine there isn't a decent sized chunk of copper in there somewhere.

There are times one can't reasonably avoid having a gun indoors and in that situation a person must choose the SAFEST possible direction. A concrete wall 10 yards away or a drywall and frame ceiling is acceptable in that case IMO. Neither is perfect, but both greatly reduce the chance of someone receiving a fatal wound in the case of a ND.

Sometimes "the bullet is going to hit a couple things losing energy and hopefully mass before it hits a living thing" is the best you can do.
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Old August 17, 2013, 10:45 PM   #56
Brian Pfleuger
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Nope.

The rule is All Guns Are Always Loaded.

Dry fire practice, cleaning and gun shops are irrelevant.

Naturally, we know that it's possible to unload a gun. That unloaded gun is still handled as a loaded gun because All Guns Are Always Loaded. You still don't dry fire while pointing it at your spouse. You still don't sweep every one in Gander Mountain. You still DO point it in a safe direction when cleaning unless the gun is disassembled, in which case it's not a gun anymore. If it were, it would still be loaded.

Reducing the RULE to "treating" a gun "as if" it were loaded turns it into a little wink and nod game we play. It's not REALLY loaded, I'm just supposed to pretend it is. I know its not, so I can do this! BOOM! Oh crap! It WAS loaded.

Accidents almost always happen with "unloaded" guns that were being treated as unloaded, safe guns that were in fact loaded and not safe. We don't "treat" guns as anything.

All Guns Are Always Loaded. No room for games. No wink and a nod. The damn thing is loaded.
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Old August 18, 2013, 12:22 AM   #57
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
Nope.

The rule is All Guns Are Always Loaded.
That's Cooper's rule. Unfortunately, that is NOT the NRA's rule, and it's why I don't like the NRA rules. As an NRA certified instructor, when I'm teaching the NRA's course I have to teach their rules, but any time I'm not operating under their banner I revert to Cooper's four rules.

The NRA's three primary rule are (pay attention to #3):

Quote:
1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.
As a 1911 guy, the text of #3 is particularly grating because, with a 1911, once you engage the safety you CAN'T RACK THE SLIDE. But NRA rule #3 does NOT say that all guns are always loaded -- it takes the opposite approach and says to keep guns unloaded until ready to use. (Whatever that means.)

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; August 18, 2013 at 12:15 PM.
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Old August 18, 2013, 12:47 AM   #58
ClydeFrog
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fingers....

Not having your index finger on the firearm trigger is a important point.
Many new gun owners or service members tend to slip the finger on the trigger even when the weapon is not downrange or facing a threat.

Taurus USA really got it right when they put a slight pad on the frame to rest your trigger finger. More gun firms should take note of this simple design.
Human beings often use muscle memory and are put at ease by feeling or seeing something they know.
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Old August 18, 2013, 10:25 AM   #59
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Aquila, I would guess that circumstances like a 1911 are why they included "if possible" regarding the engaging the safety.

I have no use for the NRAs 3+10 system. Folks have enough trouble remembering 4 simple rules, 13 is ridiculous. I also feel like the wording makes them sound a lot less serious than they should be.

There are plenty of safe directions that don't include gun ranges. At my own house, for example, if I know my family is in the front I can point the gun toward the back of the house. There's a berm back there and it would have to go through 5 or 6 walls to get there. I can point it down, depending on where I am, there may or may not be anything but wood/dirt below me. Besides that, it only takes about 2 seconds to remove the bolt/slide, it's not a gun anymore and I can handle it like any other block of metal/wood.

The 4 Rules are why I despise gun shows. They're the only place I know where the rules seem to be suspended out of shear convenience. I believe every gun at a show should have its bolt removed or chamber flags used. I think the nonchalance at gun shows at least partially stems from the "wink and nod" attitude that comes from pretending that we're handling a gun "as if" it's loaded. What's the harm?! We all know it's not really loaded. We're just supposed to treat it "as if" it's loaded. But that would be very inconvenient at a gun show so, since we know we were only pretending anyway, we just disregard that rule.
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Old August 18, 2013, 10:34 AM   #60
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In one of Mas Ayoob's training videos, he talks about filling a large cooking pot with sand, and then placing a cactus in it for decoration. The sand-filled pot makes a backstop for dry-fire, loading/unloading, etc, but just looks like a potted cactus.

IE, we can use our imaginations and come up with ways to create safe directions.
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Old August 18, 2013, 10:51 AM   #61
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Mindset and Situational Awareness !!!

Quote:
The rule is All Guns Are Always Loaded
.
That is exactly how I present it and even though that may not be factual , It's the "Mindset" That I want new students to have and maintain. In class, when I first reveal a firearm, I have to present it this way and then proceed to "prove" to them that it isn't, by clearing it as I want them to do, afterwards. .....

Now then, as far as a safe direction, regardless of where you are, there is "always" one direction that is safer than the rest. We teach situational awareness where you have to read and measure your environment. I once recall a gun counter person, in a chain store, who showed me a handgun, after he cleared it and then directed me to point the muzzle behind the counter, in his direction. I asked him what, was above the ceiling and he said, nothing but the roof, that became my safe direction. .....

As far as the benefits of one on one tutoring, I agree but not realistic. Right now, I am working with one Grandson and so far this year, we have taught about 150 students. .....

Be Safe !!!
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Old August 18, 2013, 12:22 PM   #62
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger
I have no use for the NRAs 3+10 system. Folks have enough trouble remembering 4 simple rules, 13 is ridiculous. I also feel like the wording makes them sound a lot less serious than they should be.
I agree completely.

But ... I'm a Boy Scout type. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," and all that. When I'm teaching the "NRA Basic Pistol" class, the NRA says I have to teach the NRA's rules. It's their certificate I issue at the end, so I teach their curriculum and their rules. If I decide Cooper's rules are better (they are) and teach that ... I am no longer teaching the NRA class, I shouldn't be advertising or promoting it as the NRA class, and I shouldn't be issuing an NRA certificate of completion.

That's just what is. If my state would accept the "Aguila Blanca Basic Handgun Safety" class as a prerequisite to issuing carry permits, I could teach Cooper's rules. But ... the state doesn't recognize the "Aguila Blanca Basic Handgun Safety" class, so we go with what we've got.

If I happen to let slip during a break that there's a simpler set of rules that's easier to remember ... well, what happens in breaks stays in breaks. The point is, though, that many of us are so accustomed to Cooper's four rules that we forget the major national organization behind firearm safety training doesn't use those rules.
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Old August 18, 2013, 02:25 PM   #63
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Gun safety instructor shoots student

Although being a little off topic regarding gun shows they are somewhat different from show to show depending on organization and operators. One show I attended was sponsored by a collectors club and no guns of any type were allowed through the door without at least a tie wrap through the action , mag well and or barrel. What ever the design they were unable to be fired with how the tie wraps were placed. There were even diagrams to show what was acceptable according to type and design.
Another show your somewhat on your honor to have your firearm checked at door to show unloaded and on your honor not to load once inside.
At one of these shows I asked a vendor what the large glass jar was on his table filled with all types of caliber love rounds. His reply was it was all of the "Unloaded" firearms he has received.
As far as a safe direction, every environment is different. Most times that would IMO be the ceiling when indoors, but not always.
You can have one rule, three,,four,thirteen, doesn't matter when it comes to having good common sense.
To me a desk or as in the video your foot, does not qualify for good common sense or safe directions. Neither is having someone hand you a gun and tell you it's unloaded, without checking it yourself.
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Old August 19, 2013, 11:26 AM   #64
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I am still flabbergasted that some people believe you cannot dry fire while following the Four Rules. Here is a quote from one of the pages on my website.

Quote:
Too many people become complacent and chuck the Four Rules out the window simply because they need to get some dry fire practice in. Foolish! The purpose of dry firing is to engrain certain physical habits into your memory — so deeply engrain them that your body will automatically behave that way under stress. You do not want to engrain poor safety habits. Dry firing without following the Four Rules is worse than not dry firing at all, because it accomplishes the exact opposite of its intended purpose.

Here are the Four Universal Rules and how they apply to dry fire:

Rule One, “All guns are always loaded,” means that the safety rules ALWAYS apply. You must always treat every firearm with the cautious respect you would give it if you knew for sure that it was loaded and able to fire. When you follow this rule, even after you have just checked to see that your gun is unloaded, you still never do anything with it that you would not be willing to do with a loaded gun. All other safety rules follow from this one cardinal rule.

Some people apparently believe that merely checking to see the gun is unloaded means you can then treat it like a toy — that you can point it at your friends to pose for a picture, or at your training partners for disarming practice, or at a flimsy interior wall to check trigger function. That’s a foolish, foolish idea that kills a certain number of people every single year.

Rule Two, “Never point the gun at anything you are not willing to destroy,” simply states the logical consequence of Rule One. When you choose a direction for dry fire, you must choose a direction in which you would be willing to fire a loaded weapon. Don’t point it at your dog, at the big-screen TV you can’t afford to replace, at a friend, or at an heirloom vase. Point it at something that would result in only minor and acceptable property damage if the gun were loaded.

Please note that the word “willing,” as used or implied in the first two rules, does not mean that you really want to shoot a hole in your subflooring, or that you have a great and burning desire to blast that buckeful of dry sand from your safe backstop all over your bedroom carpet. It only means that you are aware that your other safety measures may fail, and that you are willing to sacrifice these things if you make a mistake. It means you reasonably believe that only minor property damage — not physical or emotional tragedy — will result if you err.

One of the reasons people dry fire is to learn Rule Three, “Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.” This rule needs to be contained not just in your thinking brain, but in your body’s physical response to holding the gun in your hand. It should take a conscious effort of will to put your finger on the trigger. You should never, ever, ever find your finger resting on the trigger or within the trigger guard when you didn’t consciously put it there. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until your sights are on target.

What’s a target? A target is anywhere you have deliberately chosen as the best place for a bullet to land in a given situation. It can be a piece of paper, a criminal intruder, or a falling steel plate. It can be a particular spot on the living room floor, a thick stack of phone books, or a painting hung on a basement wall. The important thing is that the target is deliberately chosen. Never put your finger on the trigger, for dry fire or for any other reason including disassembling the gun, until you have deliberately chosen the best place for a bullet to land in that situation.

Rule Four, “Be sure of your target and what is beyond it,” is particularly important when dry firing. Because you are following Rule One, you know that the gun in your hand could be deadly. So you are not going to point it at a flimsy interior wall which you know would never stop a bullet, or at your own reflection in the bathroom mirror. You won’t dry fire at the TV. Instead, you’ll set up a useful target with a safe backstop.

If you cannot set up a safe backstop in your home, you must not dry fire there.
Some people believe that just because they are doing something "important" – such as dry firing, or such as teaching a class, or such as learning how to defend themselves – they don't need to follow the rules. Or they believe that they can ignore the rules whenever they find the rules uncomfortable or inconvenient.

I do not believe that is a healthy mindset. Rule one does not mean, "Check the gun to be sure it is unloaded, then do whatever you want."

The actual meaning of rule one is, "The safety rules always apply."

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Old August 19, 2013, 11:33 AM   #65
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Here is the thing about checking to be sure it's unloaded - we are fallible, and we may forget that things have changed since we checked.

A non-firearm example, from yesterday.

Got home recently from the sandbox, and took my motorcycle out for the first time since getting home. (Had family visiting, and other things that kept me from doing so before yesterday.) So I had to reconnect the battery, check tires, fluid levels, etc.

Rode over to a buddy's house without incident. Shot the bull with him for a bit, then wanted to leave. I could not start the bike. Turned ignition and kill switches off, then on... nothing. Would have scratched my head, but that's hard to do through a helmet.

Clutch squeezed? Yes. Kicked it into gear, back into neutral. Squeezed clutch again... still no start, and no electrical indications...

Realized that the kickstand was down. I had dropped it while talking with my buddy, and had not registered that I had done so. The kickstand dropping will disable the ignition on my bike.

So, in a similar way, it would not be hard to absent-mindedly insert the magazine or speed loader in the gun, after having checked it...
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Old August 19, 2013, 10:09 PM   #66
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I don't think visual and finger checking a chamber, then dropping the slide and saying "this gun is still loaded" is any more "wink and nod" than doing so and saying "Even though I just checked this gun and I know it isn't loaded to the extent humanly possible, I am still going to treat it as though it is loaded."
No normal human being is going to actually think the gun is loaded in either circumstance. A normal human being isn't going to take what they think is a lie seriously. Maybe if a drill sergeant pounds it into your head for a while, but then you might not be a normal human being.
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Old August 20, 2013, 10:41 AM   #67
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MLeake
I think you are right. The dangerous thing is the brain, the person. Not the gun.
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Old August 20, 2013, 01:31 PM   #68
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The most flabbergasting part of this thread...

Quote:
The next exercise involved pointing the weapon at a partner and pulling the trigger. Oops ...
Seriously? Are there really training classes that actually involve pointing a weapon at a classmate/partner and pulling the trigger? That is completely against everything I have ever been taught and would certainly be the the exact moment I opted to drop the class.
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Old August 20, 2013, 07:41 PM   #69
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Fishy
I am not paranoid.
If I check the gun first, you can point it at me and fire. Any time you want. Once I verify it is not able to do anything to me, and I can observe that you do not load it, it cannot hurt me.
Unless you bang my head with it like a club.
I am not like the anti's where I believe that if there is a gun in the same city as me, that I am "in danger".
Nor do I believe if a gun is pointed at me, with no one near it, that I am "in harm's way".
Even if it is loaded.
The gun will not fire itself.
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Old August 20, 2013, 08:51 PM   #70
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There is a training center in Ohio that is best described as regionally respected. From what I hear they are REALLY big on the circle the instructor and shoot him exercise. They have everyone pass the guns around the circle so every student and instructor in the group checks every gun. An instructor goes to the center of the circle and the students dry fire at him. They tout it as being the only way to break people aversion to shooting at people. I haven't been there, but I have heard it described as that more or less from two different sources. Most CCW instructors in the area who want an extra cert or two will go there. They take this drill back to their own classes with less experienced students and usually less experienced instructors.

I'm not sure the drill works as they claim. If I were in a more advanced class than I belong in I wouldn't mind running it. Something where everyone has fired a hundred thousand rounds and if they weren't super careful they would have killed themselves or someone else already.
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Old August 21, 2013, 09:33 AM   #71
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I'm not sure how pointing and pulling the trigger on a KNOWN empty gun gets people past their aversion to shooting other people with a KNOWN loaded gun.

Instead, it would seem to foster a more cavalier approach to handling firearms.
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Old August 21, 2013, 09:55 AM   #72
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I would think the intended goal would be better achieved via AirSoft or Simunitions Force on Force training.

Last edited by MLeake; August 21, 2013 at 10:25 AM. Reason: more iPhone spelling issues...
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Old August 21, 2013, 10:17 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
I would think the intended goal would be better achieved via AirSoft of Simunitions Force on Force training.
I agree. I don't think the exercise described would in any way contribute to "removing" a reluctance to shoot at a real person -- since the exercise does not involve shooting at a real person.
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Old August 21, 2013, 11:15 PM   #74
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And now things get even more interesting:

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...nstructor.html
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Old August 21, 2013, 11:33 PM   #75
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What was it Sheriff Andy used to say?

"Well, now, if that don't beat all."
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