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View Poll Results: What distance do you set your CQB sights at?
25 Feet 2 4.08%
50 Feet 1 2.04%
25 Yards 13 26.53%
50 Yards 22 44.90%
Some other distance, please explain 11 22.45%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 10, 2013, 05:33 PM   #1
Jim243
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At what distance do you set your CQB sight at?

It seems my AR changes sights as often as my wife changes dresses (twice a day, LOL)

But seriously while laser bore sighting the new red dot on this rifle (16 inch carbine), it crossed my mind that since this will be used for home defense or at least short range encounters that I should not use a 50 yard or even a 25 yard zero on it. The rooms in the house are not that long and if shooting outside it might only be 50 feet or so to the target. Right now it is set at 30 feet.

So the question is WHAT RANGE SHOULD A CQB SIGHT BE SET AT?

Inquiring minds what to know what you do?

Jim
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Old August 10, 2013, 08:11 PM   #2
Metal god
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With a 25yds zero the lowest your going to hit the target from POA is 1.75 inch's low. That would if the target was at the muzzle . The POA to POI difference will be less and less the farther the target is from the shooter . I think a 25yd zero would be fine and really any zero will still only be 1.75 inch's low .

What if you then want to shoot that rifle that is zeroed at 20 feet out to 50 or 100 yards . You are going to be way high .
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Old August 10, 2013, 08:15 PM   #3
allaroundhunter
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At what distance do you set your CQB sight at?

Mine is zeroed at 50 yards. However, that rifle also serves as a farm gun and I have shot it at problem animals out to 250 yards. Anything less than 50 yards (defensive distance), I just have to hold on my target and the round will impact at most 2" low.

If I need to take a very precise shot then I will make the proper holdover. But 2" low is not going to make much difference at all when I am aiming at the upper-center of a torso.
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Old August 10, 2013, 08:17 PM   #4
RamItOne
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Never gave it much thought, I don't see myself missing the target regardless of zero in any room in my house
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Old August 10, 2013, 08:19 PM   #5
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I thought CQB generally was considered in common buildings distances, where often a knife was a key alternative, and 25 feet may be a stretch.

What did I miss?
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Old August 10, 2013, 08:19 PM   #6
Brian Pfleuger
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Really seems like a non-issue. You're not going to be shooting for groups when the SHTF anyway. Where you're sighted in won't really be relevant.

You could go with a 25 feet zero. That way you'd be 1.5" (or whatever) low at point blank and (roughly) 1.5" high at 50 feet.

You could sight is 1.5" low at 50 feet. It shoots so flat at those distances that you'd pretty much be 1.5" low from muzzle to 50 feet. Not exactly, but close enough.

You could sight it zeroed at 50 feet. You'd be 1.5" low at muzzle, 3/4" low at 25 feet and zero at 50 feet.

In reality... flip a coin. It doesn't matter.
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Old August 10, 2013, 08:46 PM   #7
DPris
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Mine are zeroed 2 inches high at 100 yards.

At typical indoor distances it's irrelevant, and everywhere else I'm covered from 2 inches to at least 250 yards.

A rifle is a rifle, it's not just a big handgun zeroed for short handgun distances.
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Old August 10, 2013, 08:52 PM   #8
BillyJack3
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I'd still sight it in at 50 yards and learn the trajectory of the ammo you are using.
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Old August 10, 2013, 11:35 PM   #9
Jim243
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Quote:
A rifle is a rifle, it's not just a big handgun zeroed for short handgun distances.
Denis

Actually it is, I have a big handgun (Hi-Point 4095, 40 S&W) set for 50 yards and trying to set the AR for CQB range.

Brian, my ballistic calculator is having fits trying to calculate the shorter indoor distances, best I could get is I will be 2.5 inches low at 15 feet, 2 inches low at 7 yards. Hate to gut shoot someone when aiming for their heart (center mass). Does present a problem when moving outdoors and need longer distance. Guess I will go with a target zero at 25 yards and just shoot high when shooting indoors.

Scopes I understand, but these red dots confuse me.
Jim

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Old August 11, 2013, 12:55 AM   #10
DPris
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The logic in what you're trying to do totally escapes me, but it's your problem, good luck with it.
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Old August 11, 2013, 02:02 AM   #11
JohnKSa
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Quote:
Brian, my ballistic calculator is having fits trying to calculate the shorter indoor distances...
It will shoot low at short distances because your bore is lower than your scope/sights. In your case, a LOT lower than your scope.

The bullet will start out at the muzzle which (based on the picture of your setup) is 2-3 inches lower than your scope. Assuming you zero it for point-of-impact=point-of-aim at 25 yards, the bullet will follow a more or less linear upward path until 25 yards where the bore line and the sight line intersect. They will intersect there because that's where you adjusted your scope to make them intersect.

Nothing you can do, as far as adjusting your scope, will prevent the gun from shooting low at short distances because nothing in your scope adjustment can compensate for the fact that the bullet will always start out 2-3 inches below the scope.

You could mount your scope lower on the gun (not as high above the bore) and that would help some, but realistically, 2-3 inches low isn't really a problem. Pick a convenient zero distance--maybe 25 or 50 yards--and then shoot it enough so that you have a feel for where it's going to hit at various distances and call it good.
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Old August 11, 2013, 02:46 AM   #12
Jim243
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Thanks John will try it out and see. The gun pictured is not the one I am using. But you are right the red dot is 2.5 inches above the bore axis on the AR. I do have a laser on it so I can use that for more precise aiming.

Jim
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Old August 11, 2013, 04:07 AM   #13
Metal god
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When I said the lowest your ever going to hit is 1.75 inch's was assuming your sight was a s low as possible or at worst the hight of absolute co-wittiness with your iron sights . I'm assuming your your not talking about the high point in the picture cus of the OP and the statement of sighting in a red-dot on a 16" carbine .

If you are talking about that Hi-point . It looks like you have a riser added to the scope mount . I would try it out with out the extra hight and see if your cheek weld and sight picture works with that sight a little lower . That will give you a smaller vital zone discrepancy at distance

In short : what John said .
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Old August 11, 2013, 06:56 AM   #14
BillyJack3
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Sighting in at 50 or 100 yards also gives you a flatter trajectory. If you try to sight at rock throwing distances, your path has much more of an arc. Remember the 4 rules and focus on "knowing what's beyond your target". If you miss, where will a 25 foot trajectory take your projectile? If you don't know the trajectory, you don't know the answer.
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Old August 11, 2013, 08:34 AM   #15
Art Eatman
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I sight all my rifles for about two inches high at 100 yards. If I'm a couple of inches low in a self-defense situation at very close range, why am I supposed to care?
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Old August 11, 2013, 08:40 AM   #16
Jim243
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Quote:
If you miss, where will a 25 foot trajectory take your projectile?
I was thinking of using frangibles, just not sure how effective they may be.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produc...red-brass-ammo

Jim

Quote:
If I'm a couple of inches low in a self-defense situation at very close range, why am I supposed to care?
I'd rather not spend thousands of dollars and many months (years) sitting in court explaining why I am not the bad guy when someone breaks into my house.
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Old August 11, 2013, 08:48 AM   #17
allaroundhunter
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At what distance do you set your CQB sight at?

Okay, if you are aiming upper-center mass (where you should be), then an AR sighted in for 50 yards (or any range) will not hit someone in the gut.
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Old August 11, 2013, 09:04 AM   #18
Brian Pfleuger
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Originally Posted by Jim243 View Post
I'd rather not spend thousands of dollars and many months (years) sitting in court explaining why I am not the bad guy when someone breaks into my house.
What's that got to do with where you're gun is sighted and/or you hit the bad guy? You're either justified in shooting him or you're not. If you are, it doesn't matter if you shoot him in the pinky toe, the head or anywhere in between. No one is going to make an issue that you hit him 2 inches lower than you should have. This is not to say you won't end up in court, it's to say that it won't be for hitting the guy 2 inches low.

Like I said, this isn't shooting for groups. You'll be lucky (statistically) to hit the guy 2 out of 5 times, say nothing of WHERE you hit him.
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Old August 11, 2013, 09:23 AM   #19
Jim243
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Brian,

It was a simple question, "where do you guys sight in your rifles for home defense". Yes, I know I will be arrested for discharging a firearm within city limits, but that I can deal with. Being arrested for attempted murder is another story. The expression "dead men tell no tales" is not just for pirate stories. I am not looking to wound someone, I would be trying to end a bad situation that should not have happened in the first place at no fault of my own. If I can not do it effectively with the tools at hand, I need to consider a different tool.

Thanks for you help.
jim
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Old August 11, 2013, 09:47 AM   #20
Metal god
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Quote:
Like I said, this isn't shooting for groups. You'll be lucky (statistically) to hit the guy 2 out of 5 times, say nothing of WHERE you hit him.
This I think is what most guys point is when the say 25 or 50 yard zero is just as good as any other . At least that's my opinion . Off hand in a situation that most likely surprised the heck out of you and you have a Millisecond to aim . Not sure that 1" to 2" POI difference is going to be noticeable.
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Old August 11, 2013, 09:49 AM   #21
allaroundhunter
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At what distance do you set your CQB sight at?

Jim, that statement that you jut made is much more likely to get you convicted than shooting an intruder and not killing him.

Good luck, it seems as if you know more than we do and our advice is actually not worth much if it doesn't agree with you.
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Old August 11, 2013, 10:17 AM   #22
Jim243
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Quote:
Not sure that 1" to 2" POI difference is going to be noticeable
Thanks Metal god, hopefully you are right.

Quote:
it seems as if you know more than we do
Not true, if I did, I wouldn't have ask the question.

Thanks any.

Jim
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Old August 11, 2013, 10:28 AM   #23
Brian Pfleuger
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Originally Posted by Jim243 View Post
Thanks Metal god, hopefully you are right.
That's exactly my point. If you have to shoot someone, an inch or two or three in where your gun is sighted is completely irrelevant. You'll be lucky to hold a 5 foot pattern at 50 feet under the circumstances of a deadly force scenario in your home. When you're putting your bullets in a 5 or 3 or even 1 foot circle, a sighting difference of an inch is irrelevant.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm just pointing out the insignificance of this matter. It's like asking what paint will hold up best on your car in a 55mph head on collision. It's simply irrelevant.
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Old August 11, 2013, 10:30 AM   #24
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I'd choose 25-50 yards. Any shorter and you're giving up range for no reason, and adding hold over to more moderate range shots. For me zeroing has to do with velocity and trajectory. Not the range at which I intend to use the gun.

For example, If I had something that fired projectiles over 4000FPS I would likely zero for 200 yards or more. The trajectory would be so flat, that a 50 yard zero would have no advantage over a 100-200 yard zero. Zeroing at a low range in this case, you're giving up point blank range, to avoid, maybe ~1'' of rise. Not worth the tradeoff IMO. That inch is not significant and could easily be compensated for.
Something with more of a "rainbow trajectory" would obviously have to get zero'd at a shorter range.

I've found 25-50 to be sufficient for slow subsonic rounds with low BC projectiles. Unless you're using something with very limited range like a short derringer, in which case you may want to zero for a more effective range. If you're using something like a .410 derringer with birdshot, that wont penetrate a soda bottle past 10 feet. Well then it doesn't make sense to zero at 25 yards.

Just my opinion.
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Old August 11, 2013, 10:58 AM   #25
MTSCMike
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My CQB rifle's Aimpoint is sighted dead on at 200 yards (also dead on about 25-30 yards). At 20-30 feet a shot aimed at the forehead will impact about the center of the nose. There is nothing I know of that would allow POA/POI at 20 feet and still be usable at any other distance. The mid-range trajectory would be so severe that a shot at even 40 feet could result in a substantially misplaced shot.

Given your stated concerns about pinpoint accuracy in a self defense situation and fear of prosecution for a slightly misplaced hit, I would suggest you abandon the rifle and opt for a shotgun if a long gun is your preference. After weighing all the possible home defense scenarios I could conjure, I personally decided to become proficient with a handgun and I carry daily including in my home. The shotgun and rifle are in the safe until 3-gun match day or the eventual collapse of society as we know it.

If you are dedicated to the rifle then sight in at a useful distance (like 200 yards) and shoot it enough at short range that you become familiar with its characteristics and performance. If you participate in 3-gun type matches or CQB drills at speed I think you will find that those who say "it doesn't matter" are absolutely correct.
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