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Old August 10, 2013, 06:55 PM   #26
Theohazard
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Like Tom said, non-chrome-lined barrels tend to be a bit more accurate; chrome can't be applied 100% evenly and as a result accuracy can suffer a little.

This is why most of the super-accurate match-grade AR barrels out there are non-chrome-lined stainless steel.

That said, a good chrome-lined barrel can still be plenty accurate.
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Old August 11, 2013, 09:56 AM   #27
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Know whats worse than gun shop gossip Metal God? Gun shop gossip on the internet. I think the new official term for these people should be Blow-Gun-Hard's since they are blow hard's in relation to guns.

Okay so I see your point on the gas key. Sounds like a plus to me. I had been wondering why something deemed desirable for a long lasting barrel would be a minus for a long lasting BCG. So going a step further what would a chrome lined chamber offer? Any advantage?

Now as far as rifling. I have seen 1 in 9, 1 in 8, and 1 in 7. Supposedly the smaller the number the better the barrel stabilizes heavier bullets, but I have also heard that barrels can vary a lot and are more or less individuals when it comes to the bullet grains they like. Maybe a mix of both?
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Old August 11, 2013, 11:22 AM   #28
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The good news is the AR market is so great these days and customers so well informed that even rifles that are now considered "budget" lines would have been custom, top-of-the-line rifles ten years ago.

Even a line like the S&W Sport or DPMS Sport has features that many high-dollar rifles lacked in 2000. So it is really hard to make a bad choice (at least compared to all the "just as good" parts that used to saturate the market).
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Old August 11, 2013, 07:47 PM   #29
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Re: More AR15 Questions

Go 1/8 or 1/7
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Old August 11, 2013, 08:32 PM   #30
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Quote:
what would a chrome lined chamber offer? Any advantage?
Again it helps cleaning and from carbon from sticking to the chamber .It can help with extraction because the chrome lining will have a bit more lubricity then raw carbon steel . Some times when the case does not seal the chamber when fired you can get carbon build up in the chamber more up by the shoulder and neck area . You see this more with steel cased ammo do to the fact that steel cases don't expand and contract as well as brass cases do . This can cause extraction issues and a chrome lined chamber could help . All of that will be a non issue if you keep the rifle clean-ish .

I really feel I'm getting to the point that I'm talking over my head on this issue . I do not have a huge amount of knowledge when come to metallurgy and internal ballistics . If some one else could add to or even correct anything please do .

As for twist : I agree that 1-8 / 1-7 is good . Really 1-9 will shoot 95% of all commercial ammo out there just fine . My twist calculator says you can shoot up to 73gr bullet out of the 1-9 twist . That is right on the line though. Remember it is possible to over spin a bullet . If your shooting cheaply made lighter bullets they are most likely not balanced very well . Over spinning those can cause the bullet to yaw at longer ranges and your accuracy will drop off quite a bit . That is a whole other thread that involves words I can't spell or prononce

Quote from BartB
Quote:
Every bullet has a bit of coning motion, or nutation about the trajectory axis. The more nutation a bullet has, the more drag it has. More rpm's caused by fast rifling twists causes more centrifugal forces that cause that nutation. Which means the BC will be less than those perfectly balanced ones. The center of that coning, or nutation, will be above the trajectory axis .
This can cause inconsistency's from shot to shot . You want the least amount of twist that will still get the job done . This is also more about long range competition shooting but it still rings true for all bullets
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Last edited by Metal god; August 11, 2013 at 08:49 PM.
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Old August 11, 2013, 10:51 PM   #31
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Thanks for all the help. I feel a little better armed in this fight now. It almost seems like you need a lower and a couple of uppers in order to do it all.

I have been told it is cheaper to build it yourself, but I don't see how.
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Old August 12, 2013, 07:34 AM   #32
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Re: More AR15 Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by fragtagninja View Post
Thanks for all the help. I feel a little better armed in this fight now. It almost seems like you need a lower and a couple of uppers in order to do it all.

I have been told it is cheaper to build it yourself, but I don't see how.
When the parts were readily available it may have been cheaper to build it yourself. I do not know about your location but I have actually seen prices DROP here, lower than they were a year ago. Local gun show had Colt 6920 for $950.
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Old August 12, 2013, 08:28 AM   #33
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People make way too big a deal over gas key staking.
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Old August 12, 2013, 10:18 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skadoosh
People make way too big a deal over gas key staking.
I agree. Sure, sometimes an un-staked gas key is a sign of a cheap manufacturer, but not always. Young Manufacturing makes top-of-the-line BCGs and they don't stake theirs. They contend that a properly installed and torqued gas key doesn't need staking and that staking can often cover up a poorly-installed gas key.
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Old August 12, 2013, 11:45 AM   #35
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... I have been told it is cheaper to build it yourself, but I don't see how.
That depends on the individual. To compare the results of "build vs. buy" you have to look at initial cost vs. total cost after a year or two of upgrades.

If you've thought it through and know exactly what you want/need, odds are a build will cost less unless all you want is a gun off the rack that won't be upgraded. (And how often does that happen with an AR!)

I'd say the worst path is to build using crap parts and little research and little understanding of what you want. Next is buying a cheap rack gun, then upgrading it over time. The best path is knowing exactly which configurations will work for you then go shopping for the best deals and specs. If a complete rifle will do it, great! But for me and many others, a careful build is the answer. (And I do make a big deal out of gas key staking and other critical details.)
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Old August 12, 2013, 12:51 PM   #36
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More AR15 Questions

My 2 cents: S&W offers melonited barrels. These tested better than some chrome for wear protection. RRA offers chrome lined barrels as an option. Both are good rifles.
Go with a mid-length gas system. You get a more gentle recoil and can have a longer rail for better gripping. PSA offers those as well as others such as Daniel Defense.
Use quality folding iron sights and maybe a red dot or 1x4 scope to start.
Make sure the receiver extension mild pec so long term it is cheaper to upgrade the stock (and you will have more options).
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Old August 12, 2013, 01:35 PM   #37
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How is palmetto about warranty? Is it lifetime? do they have good customer service? I dread if anything were to ever happen to my P229 which is why I'm not looking at Sigs. I have called them a few times to ask questions and their service has been less than exemplary.
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Old August 12, 2013, 02:23 PM   #38
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PSA : it depends on who you ask . I love there products but have had issues with there CS . I here they are much better as of late but do still get orders wrong from time to time . There shipping/lead time is crazy long ( a few weeks )and there is a chance you get your item before you ever new it shipped . 3 weeks is what I would expect the shipping time would be for a non firearm purchase . It's my understanding they make each rifle or upper as they are ordered so they will need another 2 weeks or so . If ordering a complete rifle , Id be happy if I got it in 6 weeks . In contrast I just placed a 14 item order that weighs 40lbs from Midway on sunday morning . My order has already shipped .

I don't know what there warranty is on complete rifles .

Here you go , nice little starter rifle for around $700 you can have the upper shipped right to your home
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...c-edition.html
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...ng-handle.html
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Old August 12, 2013, 02:56 PM   #39
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My last 2 orders from psa arrived within 1 week of order date. Their lead times have drastically been reduced.
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Old August 13, 2013, 06:30 AM   #40
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I have both a S&W Sport and a Colt match target competition. They are both accurate and reliable. To be honest I cannot say one is any better than the other. Neither one has ever had a failure of any kind. I would recommend either one, I paid 600 for the Sport and 1200 for the Colt. It mainly depends on what you want the rifle for and your budget.
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Old August 13, 2013, 09:46 PM   #41
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Okay. I have been looking around a lot more, and I am curious yet again.

Spikes Tactical.

I have had them recommended a few times. Their guns are pretty reasonably priced, and apparently mil spec as it gets. How are they about honoring warranties? Good customer service?

Next question. How can Spikes, BCM, and Palmetto, offer such high quality rifles for so much less than say Daniel Defense? They are also cheaper than Smith and Wesson in some respects, and the S&W is an inferior rifle just by looking at the materials. Spikes offers a 41V50 barrel. Smith is a 4140. I rest my case. These seem like great rifles and the prices are pretty amazing, so I have to ask. What is the catch? Also is a Daniel Defense worth the ridiculous price tag for a rifle that does not even come with sights? And if so are companies like Spikes, BCM and Palmetto, a better value?
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Old August 13, 2013, 11:18 PM   #42
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We would need the exact models or links would be best to compare apples to apples . I've noticed DD to have more upgrades on there rifles come as standard free float rail better stock nice trigger etc . that brings there price up and with out knowing what models you are comparing to each other it's hard to say what's a good deal for the money .

All the manufacturers you just mentioned make great rifles and you will not go wrong with any of them . I will say again that I would not spend 1k on a standard AR with standard M4 stock handgaurds and trigger . You can find those for $900 and less all day long .
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Old August 13, 2013, 11:48 PM   #43
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Daniel Defense ARs come with hammer forged barrels and excellent rails. When you configure a BCM the same then the cost is similar. Now PSA and Spikes are among the mysteries of the universe. They offer great bargains in the price range of DPMS and Windham (which would be in trouble if more buyers would do even 45 minutes of real research).
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Old August 14, 2013, 10:59 AM   #44
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BCM Mid 16 Mod 0

My $0.02
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Old August 14, 2013, 02:55 PM   #45
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S@W AR15s are lower end builds using lower end steel in their parts. They look nice but this is the classic buy once and cry once situation. Colt, Bravo Company [BCM] and Daniel Defense are the highest quality ARs you can buy They use the proper "machine gun quality steel". While I don't consider myself the ultimate expert I purchased mt first AR in the early 1970s and have been around them enough to know Quality ARs take a licking and keep on ticking. The lower end bottom feeding ARs will make a fine tacticool range toys. 20 inch vs 16 inch? I would get the 16 inch first . The 20 inch is a real nice shooter though. Really no one owns just 1 AR. M4 carbine .net and ARFCOM is a wonderful resource for learning what makes a high quality AR. Also read this link AR.http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t...ine-filthy-14/

Last edited by cookie5; August 14, 2013 at 03:18 PM.
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Old August 14, 2013, 03:54 PM   #46
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BCM
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/speci...cm_m4_mod0.php

Del-Ton
http://www.del-ton.com/DTI_Extreme_D...extreme316.htm

Check out the spec sheet they seem pretty much the same to me . The specs where it counts are virtually identical . I cant find a price on the BCM but at my LGS the Del-Ton goes for $900 .

I'm not arguing , I'm asking what's the difference between the top tier and bottom rung AR here when comparing apples to apples .
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Old August 14, 2013, 06:00 PM   #47
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That is a good question Metal God. How much of this comes down to craftsmanship? Same materials, does not mean same rifle. If you have a master smith forging barrels at one company, and an apprentice at another you may get the same materials, but one rifle is going to out perform the other.

Okay so here is what I mean.

Spikes
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...bar-p-796.html


Smith & Wesson
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y


Daniel Defense
https://danieldefense.com/rifles/mid...no-sights.html


So the spikes and the smith are in the same price range. Spikes is a way better gun according to specs. Yet Smith is a little higher in price. Paying for the name just a little here? I mean the spikes comes with everything you could want. The smith not so much. So even though the materials are worse on the smith do they maybe have better smiths working for them? Or is it the name you are paying for?

Then there is good old Dan. The spikes comes with everything minus an optic. Dan does not even come with sights. So how do they offer such a high grade rifle and all the goodies for so much less than Dan?

Obviously Both Dan and Spike offer a better rifle than Smith does, but with the Dan I am paying about $300-$400 more for a rifle I can't even shoot out of the box. I have to go buy sights. If spikes is as good as they say what makes Dan's higher price worth paying when I still have to buy sights? Granted Dan makes a beautiful rifle, but as far as I can see that Spike matches. Both even have free float rails.

Also now I have to build. Because Spikes has to go and be sooo freaking cool that they make this.

http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/...ock-p-503.html


I just cannot pass up this lower. I am pretty much only going to be able to use Spikes lowers now. I'm kinda a nerd if you can't tell.
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Old August 14, 2013, 06:57 PM   #48
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Quote:
BCM
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/speci...cm_m4_mod0.php

Del-Ton
http://www.del-ton.com/DTI_Extreme_D...extreme316.htm

Check out the spec sheet they seem pretty much the same to me . The specs where it counts are virtually identical . I cant find a price on the BCM but at my LGS the Del-Ton goes for $900 .

I'm not arguing , I'm asking what's the difference between the top tier and bottom rung AR here when comparing apples to apples .
Actually that particular DTI Extreme Duty lists for $1030, not $900 (unless your LGS actually can sell them for that considering the hammer forged barrel), which puts it squarely in line with the BCM M4 Mod 0 or Colt LE6920. Not the typical $900 DTI you see at the LGS as it has good specs but I'll take BCM or Colt any day!

Now here's a better question, why pay $1030 for that DTI when you can get the same specs (including CHF) in an $800 PSI?!!

Oh you have to go to bravocompanyusa for sales (right now they're not selling complete rifles I believe but you can do a build.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M...pany-s/141.htm

Last edited by Quentin2; August 14, 2013 at 07:09 PM.
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Old August 14, 2013, 07:13 PM   #49
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@ Quentin2 Yep if I could buy for the same price the same gun from colt or DD I would . The Del-Ton does go for $900 here the colt $1150 and my LGS does not have DD . My LGS is a franchise and they order a lot of Del_ton's . That may be why they can sell them for that price .
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Old August 14, 2013, 07:28 PM   #50
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Delton really is bottom of the barrel with Model One Sales coming in a close second.

Personally, I think Spikes offers a stellar product for the price. Pretty comparable to a Colt by milspec standards. You just don't get Colts proprietary sauce used during the assembly process.

Wilson Combat is nice too if you want to trade your car for an AR.
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