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Old August 8, 2013, 07:54 PM   #1
fragtagninja
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More AR15 Questions

Hello gentlemen.

I have some more questions about..... You guessed it AR15's. I would be most grateful for any information you can offer.

First off I was leaning toward a 20" rifle, but I think the carbine would be much easier to get a good deal on and much more practical.

So let's get down to it.


This rifle is available in my area. Not only that but below MSRP!!!

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...layErrorView_Y

I have looked it over and it seems like a pretty solid rifle to me. Very sturdy.
Now I hear Smith has top notch customer service and the M&P handguns are pretty stellar. One of the local police depts uses this exact rifle in the patrol cars. The specs over all seem pretty good.


This is the second rifle I am looking at that is available in my area.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=217

The FFL who has it says RRA is the only company he has not had to send rifles back to. He also says of all the AR's he has owned over the years the RRA's are the only ones he has personally never had a failure with. He is also selling this rifle cheaper than the S&W above. My dad has been buying guns from him for years and he has never steered him or me wrong.


Smith & Wesson M&P-15 Rifle.

+ Made by a stable company with a good rep. I hear S&W will bend over backwards to make customers happy. So as far as I can tell if I were to have a problem it would be taken care of quickly.

It is used by law enforcement so it must be a decent rifle with a fairly low failure rate.

The materials seem to be of a decent quality, and I hear good things over all about the rifle itself.

Buffer tube is well staked

-I don't know much else about it, and I would rather have a gun that does not need a warranty than have to use it constantly.


RRA LAR-15 Entry Tac.

+ Recommended and from what I have read about them solid rifles used by federal agencies for LE purposes.

Looked like a very well put together rifle.

Two stage trigger was super smooth.

The materials sound like they are of good quality.

Lifetime warranty


- Don't know much about two stage triggers

Don't know anything about the companies warranty work, or how they stand behind their products.

Does not come with a rear sight.

Buffer tube is not staked.



The gas key on both seemed properly staked, and I believe both had chrome lined barrels if I am not mistaken. Both barrels are made from the same steel.


So does anyone have info on either of these that I am not clued into? Any first hand experience? Owners of both or either? Long term experience would be super helpful. Obviously they are both super upgrade-able. Are either of these rifles something that will last a lifetime with regular use? Does either manufacturer use out of the norm parts a lot to lock you into buy from them?
And of course does anyone know which has a larger presence in the LE community. Things that don't work don't usually last long there which is why I ask.
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Old August 8, 2013, 08:39 PM   #2
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What do you expect the gun to do for you? How do you plan to use it? A 16" carbine is lighter and handier for a general purpose gun. The 20" will give about 200fps more velocity and is easier to hold steady.
I have one S&W AR (a 5.45x39) which has been generally satisfactory. It was sent back for adjustment but this was an ammo related problem. I'm not sure but don't think I have a Rock River. Resale wise, the S&W might hold value slightly better. Unless you're planning to engage in some of the high volume shooting games, most any name brand AR will last you a long time.
Most of my AR type rifles are home assembled lowers with various manufacture uppers. I deem them to be good enough for whatever use I have for them.
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Old August 8, 2013, 10:21 PM   #3
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Thanks for the input.

Another thought. Would it be possible to mount a scope rail on top of the carry handle and still see down the iron sights?
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Old August 8, 2013, 11:37 PM   #4
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Quote:
The FFL who has it says RRA is the only company he has not had to send rifles back to. He also says of all the AR's he has owned over the years the RRA's are the only ones he has personally never had a failure with.
I'm guessing he is saying this because he has the RRA in stock and wants to sell it.

Honestly, here are better ARs out there in the same price range.
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Old August 9, 2013, 02:07 AM   #5
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I would not spend 1k or more on any AR that did not come with a better stock and better hand guard . You can get rifles Very much the same as those for under $900 all day . Check this out with a $400 aim point on it .
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index...e-package.html

If you can find a local FFL that will do the paper work for $50 or less . PSA has quality FN barrels , MPI/HPT BCGs and just about mil-spec everything . Very nice AR for $600 bucks with a $400 red dot on it .
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Old August 9, 2013, 06:51 AM   #6
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I had that exact S&W. i regret selling it. It was a great shooting rifle. S&W will stand behind their products. I own a 24" RRA Varmint, but I would still choose the S&W Carbine.
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Old August 9, 2013, 07:58 AM   #7
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RE: scope rail on the carry handle
Makes for a most uncomfortable head position and unacceptable cheekweld. I advise shooters to decide whether they want to use open sights or an optic and proceed rather than try to have both with neither being optimal.
I currently have several AR's and only one has a carry handle. The only reason it's here is because SIL is in the National Guard and he likes to be able to come to my range and practice before going to qualify(and the fact that the buyer jumped ship and left me holding the rifle). I'm basically an optics only guy with little love for the open sights.
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Old August 9, 2013, 08:29 AM   #8
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The S&W has a removable carry handle, I would suggest that you take it off with any optics. I ran an Aimpoint on mine the majority of he time. I then decided to put the carry handle back on, a buddy bough the rifle the next week. I honestly wish I had it back..
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Old August 9, 2013, 09:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
fragtagninja posted:
Would it be possible to mount a scope rail on top of the carry handle and still see down the iron sights?
I agree with Mobuck: A scope mounted on a carry handle is a bad idea; it's too high so it's impossible to get good, consistant check weld. In the old days, people mounted scopes on top of the carry handle, but that's because the handle was fixed so they had no choice.

In my opinion the carry handle is the most useless AR accessory there is. It's not actually for carrying the rifle; in the Marines we'd get slapped if we ever carried our M16A2s by the carry handle ("It's not a briefcase!!!"). All it does is add unnecessary weight and bulk and also prevents you from properly installing any kind of optic.

When I bought my first AR back in the 90s, I was used to the fixed carry handle of the M16A2. So it was awesome that I was able to take the carry handle off of my personal rifle, install a flip-up rear sight, and free up space for optics. That's my recommendation to anyone who buys an AR with a removable carry handle: Get rid of it and install a good flip-up (or even fixed) rear sight. Your sight picture will be just as good and you'll cut weight and bulk and free up space for an optic.
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Old August 9, 2013, 11:17 AM   #10
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I wouldn't get that Smith unless it was way below MSRP you can get a Colt 6920 for $1050 from Wally World and a PSA with a Aimpoint PRO for $999.00 I am not knocking Smith&Wesson my first AR was a M&P15T still have it and it hasn't given me any trouble, but I also have a few PSA ARs that were also much cheaper that haven't given me any trouble either.
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Old August 9, 2013, 12:10 PM   #11
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Both the Smith & Wesson and the RRA AR's, seem to exhibit tight tolerance fit's between the upper's and lower's. My S&W 5.45x39 upper fits just as tight on my RRA lower, as if I had put a RRA upper on it. I do have a problem with corrosion in the gas tube and gas block hole when using corrosive ammo.

The RRA winter trigger guard is plenty wide enough, but the sharp edges need to be dehorned. The RRA match grade hammer is very spindly looking. If I were going to a training camp...I would replace the RRA match grade trigger group with a mil-spec hammer, such as the ALG trigger group.

You'll need a mil-spec hammer for a dedicated 22 rimfire upper, because if you use a RRA match hammer on a 22 upper, the hammer might break after approx. 3,000 - 22 rimfire rounds. You'll also need a extra power hammer spring for the 22.
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Old August 9, 2013, 02:35 PM   #12
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Re: More AR15 Questions

Both are good guns, most ARs are pretty good now.

RRA probably is "cooler" in terms of features.

S&W has good service. Don't think I'd say they bend over backwards though.

I'd get a Colt.

Regarding which model? 20" gun is cooler to me but 16" is more practical.
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Old August 9, 2013, 03:40 PM   #13
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Actually the same guy has both rifles and he is trying to sell me the cheaper one. He thinks the S&W is an okay rifle, but he says the RRA is a better buy for the price.

I appreciate the recommendations, but the walmarts in my area do not carry AR15's. Colt is not available in my area. I was hoping to find a BCM, but I can't find what I am looking for and no one seems to be able to get either Colt or Bravo Company. the Bravo site has a disclaimer stating they are toatally out of rifles on it.


One thing I do know that I want is for the rifle to have a lifetime warranty. If a gun does not have this It just does not seem like the company believes in their product.


Okay so the scope mounted on the carry handle blows big chunks. Got it. I suppose flip up sights would be a better choice?

Now as far as ordering something online and having it shipped. What kind of cost am I looking at for shipping? Because that does add to the price of the rifle.

Charlie Delta. How do the Smiths and RRA wear compared to each other? Did you notice a big difference? The M&P has a staked castle nut. Is it a mil spec tube or commercial? The RRA is not staked, but glued with lock tight from what I hear.


Erno I don't really plan on using corrosive ammo, or .22LR so not really worried there.

Now in regards to Palmetto. The components sound like the are of high quality and the price is awesome if you are really getting what they claim. How are they about standing behind their products?
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Old August 9, 2013, 04:07 PM   #14
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Re: More AR15 Questions

I'd back off of purchasing either rifle right now. It sounds like you are still learning about ARs and what you'd like. (Which is 100% fine and smart)

My LGS recommends the RRA as the best value in ARs. I think they are good but I prefer more of the "standards" in guns. As far as having one shipped, go on gunbroker.com It's easy. Will cost around $50 or so to have shipped and $50 for transfer (est high on both).

I wouldn't order through a shop unless their supplier is currently shipping. Otherwise you'll have your money and tied up and play the waiting game.
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Old August 9, 2013, 05:34 PM   #15
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Yes and no. I have a good idea of what I am looking for. The problem is comparison is difficult when the manufacturers don't use the same specs for reference. So comparing one to another is kind of hard when they don't all give the same info.

Now the other thing is I can't find any concrete info on what this part or that part needs to be.

So for instance. I know the gas key needs to be staked properly. I know that Mil Spec refers to magnetic inspection for defects and the strength of materials used, as well as high pressure tests. I know there are mil spec and commercial buffer tubes. I know mil spec is stronger and that the commercial is slightly larger and can sometimes effect the movement of the charging handle. I know mil spec is also a term used to sell rifles and can be totally meaningless. For instance to say a 16" barrel is mil spec is kind of dumb since the M4 barrel is 14.5". Therefore there is no real mil spec concerning a 16" barrel on an AR15 platform. Personally I think the heavy barrels sound like the better buy when compared to the standard M4 barrels, or pencil barrels. Less heat build up with mag dumps. I know chrome lined barrels are easier to keep clean while slightly hurting accuracy, but also improve the barrel life if my info is correct. Now things I don't know is how much some of this stuff really matters. So buffer tubes for instance. If you were to say drop your rifle on concrete and the weight were to land awkwardly on the buffer. Would the commercial break? Would the mil spec survive? Would there ever be a reason to take the buffer tube off? If so mil spec would require the help of a gun smith. On the flip side commercial requires more maintenance with tightening the castle nut periodically. So you see my problem is this. Obviously super high end AR's are not mil spec. They use all sorts of fancy stuff that would never be found on a military rifle, but good stuff none the less.


So where is the balance? Which parts benefit from mil spec, and which ones do not? Obviously in some areas mil spec is not top of the line. In others it might be. S&W and RRA both use the same steel for their barrels. 4140 if I am correct. Mil spec is 4150. I believe this would mean that Colt uses a higher carbon steel than Smith or Rock River. Is that really a big enough difference that it will dramatically shorten the barrel life? How about accuracy? is there a difference between chrome-oly lined and chrome lined? Mil spec does not mean end all end all. It just means it meets military spec. Which means a bunch of pencil pushers decided what the guys who get shot at get to defend themselves with because they have limited funds.

Now that said there are certainly parts inferior (and not just a little) to mil spec. So having gone over the list. I still find myself questioning what I am really getting by purchasing a rifle labeled this or that.

Law enforcement use both of these rifles. Most of the time that is a good sign, but I still find myself wondering what I am really buying regardless of what brand it is mil spec or not.

Now I took the time to look at the other S&W rifles in this price range. There is one with a rail, but the barrel bore is not listed as chrome lined. This rifle is. I am pretty sure they kept it in the same range by sacrificing internal quality to get a tacticool rail on there. I am more interested in a rifle that has quality internals than a rail system for a bunch of stuff I most likely won't use.

So everyone has their brand. Everyone has opinions. Gun magazines seem to like everything and never have an issue with anything. Is this because they write about guns for a living and companies wont send them stuff if they are negative? Or is it because companies make sure they send the creme of the crop for testing? I don't know.

So for those of you that would avoid these rifles. Why? What specifically makes these rifles inferior to others?

For those that think they are good rifles. Why? What in your experience has made you a fan?


Can anyone really tell the difference between one of these and a mil spec? Or does the difference show up in long term wear and tear?

Does anyone know of a gun reviewer that breaks these things down with impartial data?

I just can't seem to find information on the interwebz that allows me to draw the conclusions I am looking for.

And thanks again for all the help. I had not looked at palmetto before. I will have to look into them more.
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Old August 9, 2013, 06:04 PM   #16
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Too many questions to answer, you're all over the place. I agree with the post about defining your applications before buying anything. You're not ready to choose yet. Get up to speed on gas length and barrel profiles. 16" midlength pencil is a great choice for a duty style AR.

I like S&W over RRA but why not look at PSA and Spikes for value and BCM, Colt, DD for an upgrade. You don't have to buy a complete rifle if they're not available, a separate lower and upper will work too.
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Old August 9, 2013, 07:00 PM   #17
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yes , he is all over the place . on some issues wrong .

Mil-spec means - Military specification . I have found that some sellers say mil-spec hoping you lump it in as a total . Example some sellers will say the buffer tube is mil-spec diameter . That does not mean to buffer tube is mil-spec period . You can have a extruded and not forged mil-spec diameter buffer tube . That would not be a mil-spec buffer tube , it would just be the same size as a mil-spec buffer tube .

Quote:
So where is the balance? Which parts benefit from mil spec, and which ones do not?
Here is what I say about true mil-spec verses commercial .
When you by mil-spec you know what your getting . There is a specific material that it must be made from and or it MUST hold up to very specific testing . Commercial anything does not need to meet any of those things .

Does that mean mil-spec is best ? NO , not at all . In fact some commercial products may be much better . Triggers to name the most obvious one can be much better from after market sellers .

My point is if a manufacturer has no standards or specs it must use. It can make the product in any way they want with any material . That means ( at least to me ) that you could have two of the same parts . One milled from solid steal the other made from pot metal and they both would have the same commercial designation . commercial does not mean less quality . It means with out some good research you don't really know how good it really is . You know what you get when you buy mil-spec .

MPI = Magnetic particle inspected / HPT = High pressure tested

I forget what your other questions were . I'm sure you'll be back asking more questions . We will be here happy to help
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Old August 9, 2013, 07:27 PM   #18
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a vote for the RRA

I bought that specific rifles as my first AR, I now own about 5 ar's and a few spare lowers. I've never had a failure with the RRA and I think the fit and finish in regards to the price point are very very good.
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Old August 9, 2013, 07:43 PM   #19
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Re: More AR15 Questions

Fragtagninja, you think too much.

Which I understand because I often do too.

Issue is, very every virtue of a component you'll find a downside. Heavy barrel heats up slower, and is much heavier. Lighter barrel is lighter but heats up faster. And on and on.

ARs drive me nuts in a way. Too many options. So you need to decide if you want a 24" barrel for shooting prairie dogs, a light and small CQB style carbine, or one of 100 other options.
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Old August 9, 2013, 07:56 PM   #20
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RRA builds commercial grade firearms. According to the BATF S&W has been the largest manufacturer of ARs for civilian sales for several years now. They're about the same if you ask me.

The deviation in quality between the low end in the AR market and the high end has shrunk considerably over the past five years. Either of the rifles will probably be fine for you. However, I personally would buy a PSA, Colt 6920, or Spikes instead.

Quote:
ARs drive me nuts in a way. Too many options. So you need to decide if you want a 24" barrel for shooting prairie dogs, a light and small CQB style carbine, or one of 100 other options.
LOL... more like 150,000 different combos.
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Old August 10, 2013, 04:11 PM   #21
fragtagninja
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Think too much?..... Yeah that sounds right. lol. It is just a lot of money. When I bought my handgun things were much simpler.


Thanks for all the help guys. I appreciate the advice.

So I guess square one? What absolutely has to be on a rifle for it to be quality? Properly staked gas key. That is about the only thing I know 100% has to be there. Everything else seems like a gray area at this point.
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Old August 10, 2013, 04:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
What absolutely has to be on a rifle for it to be quality?
For me

Forged 7075-T6 receivers and caliber multi if you can

Carpenter 158 steel bolt

HPT/MPI bolt

Staked and sealed gas key

Chrome lined gas key and bolt carrier .

As for the barrels I don't know enough to give you a solid recommendation but all the name brand guys seem to have acceptable barrels . Some better then others but all are good . There's always the whole chrome lined or nitrated barrels verses raw steel . These things have more to do with round count then quality .

I would recommend a 16" or longer barrel for your first . This way when you want to tinker and or replace parts your not having to cut things off your rifle cus the muzzle device is pinned and welded .
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Old August 10, 2013, 04:56 PM   #23
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Now why chrome line the bolt carrier? I have heard this increases wear, but that is just word of mouth via internet. Not sure if it has any real basis.

About tinkering.

How much can you do without voiding your warranty? Does it change depending on manufacturer? Is putting a rail on a rail-less gun going to void the warranty? Or would it require some modding the internal components like replacing the gas key, trigger group, etc. What about other major parts like the barrel, or receivers?

Just trying to get a feel for the big picture. What about mating uppers and lowers? I imagine that can get tricky when it comes to warranty stuff.
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Old August 10, 2013, 05:26 PM   #24
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When I say chrome linre the gas key and carrier . Mean the interior of both not the exterior

Fact : chrome lining reduces wear and keeps carbon and fouling from sticking to the metal . This helps with cleaning as well ( # of rounds is for reference only ) Example : a chrome lined bore will shoot 5000 more rounds then a non chrome lined bore . This would not be true if chrome lining increased wear .

As for warranty , I would agree that it would depend on the manufacturer but if you replaced the barrel . I would think that would void your warranty.
Putting a free float rail might void it . Let say you put a YHM rail on there that needs it's own proprietary barrel nut for installation . That might void the warranty cus you removed the original barrel nut and replaced it . Now the torque may be wrong that could cause other problems . I would ask the company first before doing any major over hauls . I think you will find that unless the barrel splits in two or your receivers blow apart . It's easier to just fix the problem your self . It will take at least two weeks to have your rifle fixed for a 3 min $2 hammer spring problem . I did send a rifle back for a new disconnect and hammer . At the time I was not sure what the problem was but the rifle was shooting 3 and 4 round burst . That was one of those thing I thought the manufacturer should deal with .

On a side note , I'm glad your here . It seems you were fed some real incorrect info . This forum is one of the best if not the best forum to get the right answers on any firearm issue . If some one says something that is not true here. There will be 10 posters behind him correcting the issue . The best part about that is the mods make sure it stays civil .
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Old August 10, 2013, 05:32 PM   #25
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Example : a chrome lined bore will shoot 5000 more rounds then a non chrome lined bore
It's hard to put an actual number on such things, as there are variables in ammunition, cleaning, and heat. While a chrome-lined barrel will probably last longer, the chroming can hide imperfections in the bore and affect accuracy.

For a civilian rifle? It's probably a toss-up.
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