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Old July 31, 2013, 07:33 PM   #1
Sabre9mm
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Bumpfire wear and tear

I have a Colt LE6920 ans a S&W MP15.

I am not here to question the practicality of the use, I would much prefer a more placed single shot in any situation that matters.

Nor the ammo use, because honestly it would be like heating your home by burning money. Not practical, but come on, for < $500 one can have a pretty close experience to a FA, with no tax stamp, no name on a list, and no $50k investment in an ammo eater...

That said the question is one of wear and tear.
Now I am no expert on FA vs SA, but I do know there are different parts despite the interchangeability of some of them, they are built to different standards, and in some cases difference materials, I assume this is take the abuse of FA (Hotter ammo to ensure proper cycling?, would love to open that thread as well)

That said, both of these devices report to be milspec, and I would assume that one pull one round is a matter of speed, not of material tolerance provided one does not go crazy and expect a few thousands rounds without issue which I would bet there is a reasonable limit on the real deal item as well.

So *if* I just want a toy, and *if* I accept it is a waste of money and ammo better spent elsewhere, the base question is will I beat the hell out of / regret having put my weapons through this abuse, or is it just expensive fun?

Thanks
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Old July 31, 2013, 07:48 PM   #2
bcarver
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my guess

You could use a full auto buffer weight. Other than that and heat from the barrel I don't think you are gonna have any problem. The bump fire does not fire extremely fast compared to a full auto.
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Old July 31, 2013, 08:53 PM   #3
Sabre9mm
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Both weapons are milspec in their current configs, so I can assume that the parts can take the same or at least reasonably similar abuse.

Bcarver, that is along the lines of the spirit of the question, so buffer would have to be changed to assure proper operation?

I know the SA and bump fire speeds are not comparable, but I am not scared to admit bump fire can pull faster than me on my best Starbucks day..

And though I know the quality of both my toys, and I have never feared shooting them too fast or too long, but this will go through more ammo per 15 minutes than I shoot on average per hour. Honestly the average speed of the action vs my finger are probably laughable.

Will I beat them to death, or will they not even flinch?

Last edited by Vanya; August 1, 2013 at 11:52 AM. Reason: response to deleted post.
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Old August 1, 2013, 06:58 AM   #4
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I would presume that such wear is considered when using this device. It's the only affordable way for civilians to rock and roll despite anti-gunners ongoing efforts to take our guns.
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Old August 1, 2013, 08:52 AM   #5
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My understanding of the problem of excessive wear would be that when the rate of fire gets the barrel really, really hot, the burning of the leade is then at a greater rate. This would reduce accuracy insofar as group size in "normal" shooting at a target.

I don't know if a high rate of cycling causes more wear than a slower rate, for a given number of cycles. Just a guess, but probably not...
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Old August 1, 2013, 09:28 AM   #6
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I'm going to agree with Art Eatman. I really don't think bump firing an entire mag in 5 seconds will do anything more to your rifle than it would if you fired each round off 5 seconds apart from next. Allow your rifle to properly cool and everything should be just fine.
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Old August 1, 2013, 10:10 AM   #7
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Cool, I have located various sources that seem to indicate the maximum sustained rate of fire for the m4 is 12/15 RPM. Not that it will not go faster, just that seems to be the point at which it will naturally stay cool enough to maintain accuracy and not eventually malfunction due to heat or heat related issues such as cook off.

I cannot find anything that indicates what you can actually safely feed one in bursts, I assume even if I did that it would relate to the increased rate of fire in the true FA specs.

So I think I will take it as this... If the materials are the same (And someone correct me if the milspec label does not indicate that they are at least comparable even if not metallurgical matches)...

Then as long as I practice some reasonable basic safety, and do not get stupid with it, all should be well for the amount of rounds I will feel comfortable wasting at any point in time.

Thank you for the replies, and if anyone has anything else to add/warn/suggest feel free please...
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Old August 1, 2013, 10:28 AM   #8
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mil spec

Both being "mil spec'' means they meet a minimum requirement. Both of those are good name brand rifles. I would never shoot more than a single magazine without allowing a cool down unless you are willing to write off any accuracy from this barrel. One thing you may want to consider is a light thin barrel cools quicker but a heavy barrel takes longer to get hot and cools slower.
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Old August 1, 2013, 12:22 PM   #9
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Great, now the only decision is DefendAR or SlideFire.

I favor the DefendAR, a bit more pricey, but it looks like the better product.
Slidefire looks like an overpriced piece of plastic.

Anyone have any experience or pros/cons of either product?
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Old August 1, 2013, 01:24 PM   #10
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I played with a SlideFire and after around 45 seconds to realize the pressure needed, it worked as it was supposed to. It isn't as bad as I thought for control. You can control it and the amount of fire bursts pretty easy. The new version looks way better(almost Magpul-ish), the first gen. looked like a toy.

Word to the wise though be careful. It is easy to overheat he barrel and gas components. The very same rifle I played with, was damaged later the evening by heating it too much. It now is around a 5-6 MOA rifle... It was a Daniel Defense. They had the barrel glowing and kept shooting until it started baking off rounds.
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Old August 1, 2013, 03:09 PM   #11
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Yeah, at $15 per mag, I do not envision doing it often anytime soon, but I could not resist.

DefendAR ordered, I am going to install it on my S&W when it arrives and will post video / review as soon as it gets here, gets installed, and gets to the range.

It is just one of those *because I can* items, that may become *no longer can* later, certainly if mag capacity is available to question, these will someday as well... And I cannot envision unless they outlaw them, I could not reclaim the majority of my investment if I just get tired of it or do not like it.

Despite I do not think it would be terribly practical defense wise, I do believe that in a defense situation it would add a definable intimidation factor.

Lets be real, charging a guy with a gun is stupid, charging a guy with a machine gun is stupid X 10, and is it a real machine gun? No, but on the business end it would be real enough for cover fire. So if you were Mr. Bad Guy, would you be analyzing cyclic rate, or would you be ducking the cloud of rounds flying your way?

So as a home base bad guy deterrent, with the ability to lock into SA and still remain practical and conservative, awww hell, why not...
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Old August 1, 2013, 03:43 PM   #12
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I wouldn't buy either one. I mean...what need is it? You should be able to achieve aimed and deliberate rapid fire --- with a single pull of the trigger for each shot --- about six shots in 1.5 seconds; without bump firing. Is that fast enough for you? It seems to be fast enough for me.

If you can't...you haven't achieved the level that is reachable with you're subconscious. By bump firing {which you can do without using a Slide Fire stock}, puts you behind the game --- in relation to you're subconscious being taught too achieve the rate of rapid fire, that is sometimes desirable with a semi automatic firearm.

According to Rob Leatham: It takes around 50,000 rounds to teach you're subconscious how to pull the trigger, while all you're self conscious has to do, is aim the sights.
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Old August 1, 2013, 03:57 PM   #13
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Well I can think of a lot of things I have that I do not need.
Sort of the same dilemma of when I am holding two guns, what need do I have for the third, fourth, fifth, etc... Or why do I shoot targets on the 500yd range when I would never really engage one that far away in real life?

Because it is fun...

Not a matter of need, I established before, it has no real practical purpose to me other than entertainment.

If I ever needed my weapons, most likely the DefendAR would be locked and I would be placing single shots where I wanted them to go, and not wasting my ammo or missing my intended targets.

However having the choice to spray a few rounds downrange for cover fire *if* I were so inclined, is not a bad option to have IMO, and not one that really interferes with the normal operation.

For the most part it will be to make noise, myself and my family will get a kick out of it, (My boys jumped up and down wanting to shoot it after watching the video) and a far cheaper alternative to a real FA for just that purpose.

I really wanted to just make sure it was not going to be fun at the expense of destroying one of my favorite rifles, I believe with a little common sense I can avoid that for the most part.
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Old August 1, 2013, 04:09 PM   #14
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Just to clarify that, I am not prepping for the end of the world, or zombies, or any other silliness like that. Nor am I looking to go armchair commando with my new toy.

If there is any luck to be had in my future I will never *need* my weapons for anything but a fun day at the range. That said this modification would make them capable of both purposes at any time
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Old August 1, 2013, 04:25 PM   #15
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When I rapid fire...I limit each string, to about six rounds per. Any barrel that is to hot too touch, is at or beyond the 180 degree Fahrenheit mark, which contributes to rapid barrel wear. You might be able to get away with more rounds fired rapidly with a 22 rimfire, but I usually cool my barrels down, with portable auto fans, that are run by 12 volt motorcycle batteries; that I mount on the rifle bench.

Like the other poster said: Beware of the potential for hot barrel cook-offs, with the hot barrel cooking the live round in the chamber so much, that the firearm will discharge the round by itself.
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Old August 1, 2013, 04:34 PM   #16
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Yes, range protocol for us is always clear and lay 90° to down range anyway...
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Old August 1, 2013, 04:51 PM   #17
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One RSO at our range...put a 3 round rapid fire string limit on a group of four shooter's, that were using a 5.56x45 AR-15, that was equipped with a Slide Fire stock; so they could be assured of hitting the 100 yard backstop. He also isolated the group, by putting them on the far unused side of our 100 bench firing line.
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Old August 1, 2013, 05:14 PM   #18
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My range has private bermed areas, they allow full auto there.
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Old August 1, 2013, 05:21 PM   #19
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I bump fired my ACR once before I sold it, quite a few stovepipes occurred which never happened when firing from the shoulder. FWIW.
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Old August 1, 2013, 05:23 PM   #20
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The only thing you may wear out prematurely is the barrel and or gas tube.....which really aren't that expensive or hard to replace...............knock yourself out
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Old August 2, 2013, 05:40 PM   #21
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The only interesting rifle is an accurate rifle

Someone once said the above and the Slide Fire doesn't really come under this definition of "interesting" for me. If I had money to waste on rapid fire (in ammo and wear/tear) I would take it to Vegas and treat the girls to a drink.
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Old August 10, 2013, 05:49 PM   #22
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What is in the box.

It arrived, have not had a chance to install yet, have to order a wrench for the castle nut. (Edit:Academy has one, so will probably pick it up tonight)

I can say this, it is solid built, I am glad I sprung for this one over the SlideFire model....


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Old August 10, 2013, 06:47 PM   #23
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Only thing I've heard of bumpfiring harming was triggers (maybe), since the bouncing may pull the trigger harder than your finger would. Every other aspect of the act is the same as rapid semi-auto fire. Manage barrel temperature intelligently, and there'll be no problems.

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Old August 10, 2013, 10:19 PM   #24
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Installed on the S&W M&P15OR, does not look too bad IMHO.



Only complaints on installation...

1.) The slidelock wingnut needs a set screw.
Since turning it is part of its operation, and there is no way to hold it and tighten it when assembling, it has come un-threaded a small distance just a few times playing with it, and when it does, it drags the buffer tube. Locktight will probably help, but it is a design flaw of sorts and they should take note.

2.) It really should come with a recoil pad, since it only adjusts to slide or no slide, I can guess it would be a matter or preference on length, but there would be no way one would be comfortable with metal to shoulder. So for a $500 toy, charging an extra $25 for the pad seems a little grubby...


Other than that, dry fires seem to perform exactly as one would expect, with any luck it will be to the range soon and I will report how it actually runs.

I think prone, the gripod will make this a piece of cake, and more controlable.
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Old August 10, 2013, 10:31 PM   #25
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Hmmmm, just watched the install video on the site, their model had a separate screw that went *into* the slidelock pin, mine is simply a threaded pin...

The one in the video seems that it would have been the better option (so maybe I was shipped an old design?)

Will see what their CSD has to say Monday...
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