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Old July 26, 2013, 04:56 PM   #51
Mike Irwin
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" Now plain clothes cops are one thing, but not off duty. They can hope on a cell phone and get UNIFORMED personel over..."

Yeah.... No.

It all depends on the jurisdiction. In some jurisdictions, police officers are considered to be "on duty" and must be armed at all times, and the have full authority of law at all times.


"Some store employee comes up and starts feeling your pockets, well they committed sexual assault, as well as battery if you say 'ow'."

Your pocket? That's likely, at best, simple battery.
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Old July 26, 2013, 05:04 PM   #52
Mike Irwin
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To answer your specific questions, Spats...

You're not a man if you don't immediately scream "YOU WILL NOT DETAIN ME!," whip out your CCW, and gun them down.

At least that seems to be the prevailing advice from a lot of people on the In-tard-net...

Me? It's never happened to me, but were it to, I'd POLITELY:

1. Not consent to being touched or searched in any way, shape, or form.

2. Request that the manager either summon police or cease the detainment.

3. When police arrive inform them that I have a legal CCW and present my ID and CCW (it's not required at all in Virginia, but it might help defuse the situation).

4. Once everything is sorted out, politely thank the officer.

5. Politely ask the manager to assist me as I do a full return on all items purchased in that store and inform him that I won't be shopping there again.

This is Northern Virginia. I have TONS of stores from which to choose, and these stores hate to lose a repeat customer.
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Old July 26, 2013, 06:21 PM   #53
johnelmore
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I was reading in this thread that store security staff might be some lesser type of min wage person, but I beg to differ. They are people like you and me working a job the best they can. I once knew a guy who did store security at Sears and he was an enterprising Criminal Justice student in college. Another guy had worked store security before becoming a police officer.

Say and think what you want but these guys are not as unintelligent as what you believe and they will not approach just anyone. If they do approach its because they saw you shoplifting. They will not approach you inside the store but just after you leave with the merchandise. The police will be called at the same time.

The staff who approach you will be trained and most likely have done this before. Now in todays era this confrontation is avoided and the police will be used instead. If the staff does follow you it will be to observe and act as a witness but most likely not to detain.

So to make a long story short...dont shoplift and you will have no worries.
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Old July 26, 2013, 06:47 PM   #54
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Quote:
I was reading in this thread that store security staff might be some lesser type of min wage person, but I beg to differ. They are people like you and me working a job the best they can. I once knew a guy who did store security at Sears and he was an enterprising Criminal Justice student in college. Another guy had worked store security before becoming a police officer.
You hit on a good point imho... It will depend on the exact store, and their view on "loss prevention" but some of these positions are quite attractive to those in law enforcement working investigations who wish to change careers slightly. Ive known a few to make the jump to loss prevention and get a nice raise, better benefits and hours. Im sure other stores may use a minimum wage person for some of these positions also. So there will be a wide range of skill sets in these positions.

Quote:
5. Politely ask the manager to assist me as I do a full return on all items purchased in that store and inform him that I won't be shopping there again.
Probably one of the best suggestions.

Also, I would add that, in addition to the theft prevention things at the exit door going off, I am also leary of continually sticking my hands in my pockets/coat when I am in a retail establishment, because I do not want anyone who may be watching to think I am 'concealing merchandise" either, which is a misd here on its own.
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Old July 26, 2013, 07:32 PM   #55
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I still think it's a non-issue.

The days of store detectives lurking around "shopping" are over. Before you get accused of shoplifting, you'll be on four screens from three angles and there will be five witnesses.

Which is, incidentally, exactly how they know you weren't shoplifting.
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Old July 26, 2013, 08:42 PM   #56
40-82
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This thread has been very helpful to me. It's so much better to know the law and have a plan of action. The last time I set off one of those buzzers I turned to the nearest employee and asked, "Does that mean I should run?" She laughed and said, "Ignore it. This buzzer goes off on its own all of the time for no reason." Had I faced a more aggressive employee, I would have had no idea exactly where I stood legally. Now I do. Thank you.
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Old July 26, 2013, 08:44 PM   #57
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They detained the crackfiend that stole my mothers car after he entered the store and started acting suspiciously with several accomplices.
That depends on what "detention" entails. If they used physical force, that could lead to a lawsuit. If he responded violently, that could lead to injured employees and lawsuits.
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Old July 26, 2013, 09:15 PM   #58
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hmmm detained by a merchant.

Police seek shoplifter who beat up Walmart employee as he fled with electronics

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2013...ctronics.html/

And THAT can happen to but most merchants don't take precautions.

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Old July 28, 2013, 10:46 PM   #59
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"they are RFID detectors "
It is almost certainly an electromagnet tag/tower EAS system, not RFID EAS system.

I just keep walking unless I think I have something I forgot to pay for. The burden of proof is on the store and since I didn't steal anything they can't meet it. If they physically detain me, well good luck to them.
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Old July 29, 2013, 11:42 AM   #60
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Assuming the detectors are not malfunctioning, I would offer to walk back through the detectors without the shopping cart or bag to demonstrate that nothing on my person is triggering the alarm.

They can poke through the grocery bags if they wish.

No searches of my person by anyone except a LEO.
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Old July 29, 2013, 12:08 PM   #61
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What is all the concern about. I've had the alarm things go off several times at different stores, no one has ever mentioned searching me. If indeed it was a metal detector instead of a tag reader it would have gone off as you entered and would go off every time a purchase of something metal went out the door. Usually they glance at the receipt, or at worst hand them the sack to walk through the system. Should anyone ever want to search me, I would laugh and say, I'll happily sit over here while you call the police, and could I please have a cup of free coffee while I wait, after we are done, I'll accept your apology and shop elsewhere in the future.
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Old July 30, 2013, 11:30 AM   #62
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And for the guy who didn't buy anything, so had no receipt, pretty much the same thing. A search by a uniformed LEO would result in your vindication and you'd be sent on your way.
Okay. Then my question is this- does the RF security beeper thing- in and of itself- even constitute probable cause for a search? Just to complete the picture, I'm trying to buy a watch on the way to work, and they refuse to sell it to me- just too damned lazy to get the key and open the case for me. I'm already angry. I'm not in the mood to stand there emptying my pockets or be patted down. And I don't want to be late to work. Does a police officer have the power to detain me and search me?
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Old July 30, 2013, 04:14 PM   #63
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Don't do anything to escalate the situation. Becoming macho and tough will NOT help, especially when the law arrives.
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Old July 31, 2013, 10:08 AM   #64
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5. Politely ask the manager to assist me as I do a full return on all items purchased in that store and inform him that I won't be shopping there again.
If the incident was handled politely, what's the reasoning behind this? Odds are, they're not going out of their way to specifically cause you trouble-they likely observed you doing something suspicious where they genuinely felt you may have taken something. Constantly strolled through the same aisle, picked up/replaced multiple items, continually put your hands in your pockets-all innocent acts, but enough to raise concern under the right conditions.

All you're doing by publicly removing your patronage at this point is making the store afraid to stop anyone, and thus making it an easier target for shoplifting (which can ultimately lead to more aggressive and unfriendly encounters as the store tries to counter). Most stores should feel guilt already for detaining an innocent and look for ways to reduce these incidents in the future. If you feel so slighted, just politely take your items and leave and don't return after that point, but (again, assuming everything was done politely and as professional as possible) don't take it out on the store/people doing their jobs.

Although, I'd dare say, like others have, the odds of you getting stopped and attempted to be detained if you've not actually done anything are extremely remote to begin with.
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Old July 31, 2013, 11:15 AM   #65
wayneinFL
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If the incident was handled politely, what's the reasoning behind this?
When I was at Kmart in the 80's, our loss prevention staff would watch people and catch multiple shoplifters a day, and prosecute them. Actually watch someone stealing and follow him, the old fashioned way. If they followed someone to the front of the store, you knew damned sure they had stolen something.

There's the option of checking everyone who left the store. We weren't stopping everyone who walked through the door, going through their items, and checking the receipt- that's the cashier's job. And it's security's job to watch the cashier.

And then there's the machine that's supposed to do it all for you. There are too many false positives on these machines. Not only are there other RF chips they're picking up, buy I have a feeling that the foil detection systems are reading false positives on other metallic items as well. It has happened to me so many times I don't always hear it any more.
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Old July 31, 2013, 12:13 PM   #66
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Years ago, when I was a long-hair, looked like a disreputable snipe and worked as a bartender, I went to a store with some friends late one night. It wasn't long before we spotted one of their loss control guys following us around. Rather than get snippy about it, we invited him to just come up and walk with us. He seemed like a nice enough feller.
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Old July 31, 2013, 12:38 PM   #67
Rikakiah
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Quote:
When I was at Kmart in the 80's, our loss prevention staff would watch people and catch multiple shoplifters a day, and prosecute them. Actually watch someone stealing and follow him, the old fashioned way. If they followed someone to the front of the store, you knew damned sure they had stolen something.

There's the option of checking everyone who left the store. We weren't stopping everyone who walked through the door, going through their items, and checking the receipt- that's the cashier's job. And it's security's job to watch the cashier.
That's exactly my point--IF you're stopped, there's a pretty good chance security saw you doing something that looked darned suspicious. If they're courteous and professional about it and it turns out to be nothing, they were just doing their job. The odds of you just randomly being stopped and subjected to a lengthy process are infinitesimally small.
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Old July 31, 2013, 04:33 PM   #68
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That's exactly my point--IF you're stopped, there's a pretty good chance security saw you doing something that looked darned suspicious. If they're courteous and professional about it and it turns out to be nothing, they were just doing their job. The odds of you just randomly being stopped and subjected to a lengthy process are infinitesimally small.
I've been stopped half a dozen times in the last couple of months. Trust me, I wasn't doing anything suspicious, let alone "darned suspicious". They stopped me solely on the fact that the machine beeped as I walked out the door. If it's walmart/target it's not too bad, because the receipt is in my pocket or in one of the bags somewhere, because I'm going to throw it away when I get home. If it's Home Depot or Lowe's, I have to pull out the stack of receipts I filed away and find the 2 or 3 transactions worth of stuff and sort through it. It's a pain in the neck, and it's absolutely pointless.

If they were following people around the store and watching them, I'd be fine with it. I wish they would watch the floor, and find a dozen people a day who are actually shoplifting and prosecute them, rather than stopping a couple of hundred a day who are just trying to give them money and get out the damned door.

A few weeks ago, some lady stopped me in the parking lot and wanted my wal-mart bags. I didn't give them to her, and she walked in with an outrageously large empty "purse"- the size of a large duffel bag. Her friend sat in the car with the engine running. When she left, she didn't go through the front checkouts, and the bag was full. They could have watched that person, and it would have been far more effective than stopping actual customers and checking their receipts.

I have no problem with security as long as it's not a burden to customers and it's effective. And there's no reason it can't be that way, especially with the technology we have today.
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Old July 31, 2013, 05:38 PM   #69
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Yea I've been asked to see my receipt and look through my bags when the alarm goes off at Wally World. I just say this is my merchandise I just bought it and hell no you ain't going to bags or seeing a receipt or nothing when I'm leaving I tell them to call the cops if they want and never miss a beat. If they want they can follow me to vehicle and get license number which they never have. If I've done something wrong then fine but just to harass people. Please !! N

One time I was leaving and saw three peoe lined up going through bags and it beeped on me and lady told me to get in line. I just kept walking and told her to do whatever she needed to do.
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Old August 2, 2013, 05:26 PM   #70
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Keep walking...

and tell them to get their machine fixed.
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Old August 7, 2013, 10:41 PM   #71
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The only control the store clerk has over you is the control you give them. Stopping at the door when the alarm goes off is a kin to walking down the streets of NY with a city map in your hand... it just screams "come screw with me, I am clueless about what is happening". Those door alarms go off frequently and I no longer even pause for them...
1. I look like someone that paid for their stuff
2. I don't look like some to be screwed with
3. I am already outside the store - too late

If you are suspected of shoplifting you'll be stopped as soon as you try to pass around the checkout register.... before getting to the doors. Many retailers require that at least 2 employees see you shoplift and must keep eyes-on from start to end.
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Old August 8, 2013, 02:33 AM   #72
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Actually, in Washington, it's not theft until you're out of the store.

So it's not too late. Exactly the opposite-- it's not time until you've left the store.

My point is that there isn't a magic line past which you're free if you make it that far.

Ignoring store employees and hoping they'll go away is, perhaps, one of the worst ways of dealing with such a situation. Particularly when, as in this thread, the situation is an erroneous "stop" following a legitimate purchase.

I stay with my plan: no plan necessary. I can talk my way home when I've just finished a legitimate purchase, every time. My weapon will never enter into it.

Why wouldn't you take the easy way out, and talk?

Don't all you "mindset" guys teach de-escalation?
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Old August 8, 2013, 07:17 AM   #73
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Interesting take on this often common problem, the beep machine!

A couple of stories, when I first moved to Canada (1968) left in 2003. I went into a store that is still alive and well Canadian Tire, my first shock, you don't spell Tire that way in England! In looking around, I bought a few things, one item being a small file, that I put in my shirt pocket.

I noticed this file again, getting in my car! It poked me in the cheek! And I had not paid for it!

Went back in the store, embarrassed to death, and apologized, paid for it, the young Lady cashier complemented me on my bright red English cheeks!

Since then, in Canada, and in the US of A, tags have been left on items, and I have beeped! But never has it been a problem, walked back in, tag off, bye.

Now the opposite side of the coin, shop lifter, I think! Standing, chatting to the Computer guy in Office Depot, he was downloading something to my laptop, I noticed a young couple walk in, I watch every one, the nature of the beast.

He went looking at lap tops, just looking, she went over to some items that were small, and not cheap! Then straight to the washroom!

Five minutes go by, back out from washroom area, hold hands, and they walked out (Very big purse) bulging!

Called this to the attention of my fix it guy, "We can not even speak to them" he said! We just let them leave!

That's why goods cost so much I recon.
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Old August 8, 2013, 09:02 AM   #74
wayneinFL
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Quote:
If you are suspected of shoplifting you'll be stopped as soon as you try to pass around the checkout register.... before getting to the doors.
Quote:
Actually, in Washington, it's not theft until you're out of the store.
In Florida, concealing merchandise on your person inside the store is shoplifting. But when I worked retail 20 or so years ago they still wouldn't stop anyone until they walked out the door. I suspect the reasoning was that it held up better in court if the crook made it all the way out the door, that it shows intent.
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Old August 8, 2013, 09:08 AM   #75
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It all depends on their level of courtesy,,,

It all depends on their level of courtesy,,,
And my mood at the moment.

I carry a nice leather briefcase,,,
Actually it's more like a leather messenger bag.

I started carrying it when I was still a student,,,
It's so danged handy that I continued using it daily,,,
And yes, there's almost always a Beretta Cheetah in it's holster.

I had a Wal Mart security guy confront me in the parking lot,,,
He was not particularly polite but he wasn't confrontational either,,,
He said I was on tape looking like I had placed something in my briefcase.

I knew exactly what he was referring to,,,
I had taken a small tape measure out of my bag,,,
I used it to measure the length of a replacement lamp harp.

Anyways, he asked if he could search inside my briefcase,,,
I considered getting uppity but like I said,,,
He was not being overly rude.

I told him I would open my case and he could look inside it,,,
But under no circumstance would I hand it to him,,,
He was puzzled until I opened the compartment,,,
And showed him the holstered Beretta.

I explained what I had been doing and showed him the tape measure,,,
He accepted that, apologized for the inconvenience,,,
And we went on my merry ways.

I've had other situations that weren't so calm,,,
One case angered me so badly that I verbally provoked the security guy,,,
I truly hoped he would grab at me or my bag so I could sue the pants off the store.

But bottom line,,,
Since I carry my gun in my briefcase,,,
I'm not allowing anyone to take it or to search me.

Except a cop.

Aarond

.
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