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Old July 25, 2013, 10:49 PM   #26
ChaperallCat
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store employees cannot search you. all they can do is ask you not to leave. Some stores allow their security to chase you down, but not many have that policy.

I believe its a federal law or statute that only law enforcement can touch someone. Its considered part of their duty. and the TSA people can poke you hard as they like.
Some store employee comes up and starts feeling your pockets, well they committed sexual assault, as well as battery if you say 'ow'.

Statute says you only have to surrender the chl to an actual LEO. Now plain clothes cops are one thing, but not off duty. They can hope on a cell phone and get UNIFORMED personel over. Wouldnt want to just give that loaded handgun to a crazy person with a badge from the box of cracker jacks they had in 3rd grade now would we?

Thats the other thing, its against the law to provide a gun to a convicted felon, or to anyone guilty of a bunch of crimes that vary from state to state. How would you like to be charged for giving that nice 357 snubby to someone who got off a 5 year felony stint for armed robbery?

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 26, 2013 at 09:27 AM. Reason: language
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Old July 25, 2013, 10:58 PM   #27
Koda94
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interesting, I've thought this same question its reasonable to think about and have wondered what authority do non LE personnel (security, employees, etc. ) have.

My take, I would comply with the detainment only reasonably for LE to arrive, in fact I'd be calling them myself. I'd show them the receipt, let them search the bags. I would not tell them I was carrying, or empty my pockets or consent to a search of my person.

The question I have now is what to do if they physically tried to search you? What is the best approach for handling a forceful search, especially if your carrying?
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Old July 26, 2013, 12:41 AM   #28
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Even if I wasn't carrying no one that is not an LEO will be allowed to search me. I would call the LEO's myself and if they tried to prevent that things would go down hill from there, without my firearm being directly involved. It would also make for an interesting lawsuit.
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Old July 26, 2013, 01:07 AM   #29
Jammer Six
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Assuming all the givens-- a legitimate purchase, a suspicion without grounds, a weapon doesn't enter into it.

If I've made a legitimate purchase, I can talk my way home, with or without a weapon.

The weapon and the search would always be irrelevant, given those conditions.

Going in with limits that only you see or trying to enforce your views on the world is setting yourself up for a shooting that didn't need to happen and a prison sentence you might not deserve.
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Old July 26, 2013, 01:47 AM   #30
johnelmore
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You need not worry. The security people at the store go through this on a daily basis. This may be your first time but for them they go through this all the time.

So if you are stopped by security at a store they will have good reason and they will know how to handle the situation.
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Old July 26, 2013, 06:32 AM   #31
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I have a great story for this thread. So I was about 18 or 19 can't remember. But I went to the local Kmart looked around for a few minutes. Found something I wanted picked it up went a few feet decided I didn't need it after all put it back. Started to walk out the door when the Kmart security guard grabbed ahold of my leather jacket from behind at which time I spun around grabbed him by the throat and slammed him into the wall where he crumpled. When he got up he informed me that I was going to be arrested for theft and assault. I informed him that he had in fact battered me first and if someone were going to jail it would be him. He called the sheriff's department while I set there and waited. When the deputy arrived he asks what happened and I told him. I also consented to a pat search by the Deputy of course I had nothing so he went and pulled the video came back after watching it and ask me in front of the store security if I would like to press Battery charges. I declined but ask the Deputy to please inform said security guard that he was not a police office and has no right to touch anyone. I heard he got fired over it but I did not pursue it. The funny part is I had been a police explorer and knew the Deputy that responded so everything turned out ok. Still the point is don’t expect Security guards to know the law. Be polite but if there is a problem demand they call the police. I would under no circumstance ever let one of them disarm me.
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Old July 26, 2013, 06:46 AM   #32
leprechaun50
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Quote:
You need not worry. The security people at the store go through this on a daily basis. This may be your first time but for them they go through this all the time.

So if you are stopped by security at a store they will have good reason and they will know how to handle the situation.
Don't bet on it.
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Old July 26, 2013, 07:39 AM   #33
Tom Servo
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The overriding factor is liability.

Quote:
(2) The detention by a law enforcement officer, merchant, or merchant's employee does not render the law enforcement officer, merchant, or merchant's employee criminally or civilly liable for false arrest, false imprisonment, or unlawful detention.
The use of force in detention, or simply detention that's not justified, can be grounds for a lawsuit against the representative, the merchant, or the parent company. This is why many merchants don't even attempt to detain suspected shoplifters.

Even factors outside their direct control can be grounds for litigation. If they decide to give chase, and I run and get hit by a car in the parking lot, are they liable in my state? Possibly. Then there's the issue of employees getting hurt if I resist.

This is the really galling thing about shoplifting: it's very hard to prosecute. If a suspected thief simply decides not to cooperate, the merchant has few viable options in practice.

Quote:
Apparently, those things go off with some regularity, even when you're not stealing stuff.
That certainly doesn't help. The argument can be made that if person A is ignored or allowed to leave without issue when he sets off the detection device, then they really can't stop person B.

As far as being searched or disarmed, I would only give consent to law enforcement. If the merchant wants to detain me and call them, I'll wait. There's no way I'm allowing someone I don't know to handle a firearm of mine, much less one that's loaded.
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Old July 26, 2013, 09:36 AM   #34
johnelmore
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I am not sure of the applicable laws in all areas, but I do know in some areas they can only detain you if they observe you shoplifting. In any event, no one is going to detain you unless they have hard evidence like a video of you shoplifting otherwise there is risk and liability for all involved.

Rest assured you will not be detained unless there is very good reason supported by direct observation and hard evidence.
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Old July 26, 2013, 09:46 AM   #35
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I have know store security and seen a few “capture” suspected shoplifters, I know one of their common tactics is to get suspected shoplifters into a backroom where they are out of sight and off camera. They usually use “can you come with us” or basic wording to make it seem legally voluntary.
You do not legally need to go with them. You can tell them “No.. I will wait right here”

I knew one guy (I never liked) that used to work nights at a store he would seek people out that looked like they had drugs and would be submissive, he would then follow them into the parking lot with 1-2 other store goons tell them they were suspected of stealing, empty pockets and they could “forget about the drugs as a favor”. He is a cop now.

I knew one woman that was strip searched(all legally voluntary of course) only to find the detector tag stuck on the bottom of her shoe.

Most store security make little more then min wage, work poor hours and have basically no valuable skills. It was usually the security job or McDonalds. I wait for the day the mess with me.. I would love a good lawsuit.
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Old July 26, 2013, 10:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
I would love a good lawsuit.
I don't think there really is such a thing, especially if you are one of the parties involved.
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Old July 26, 2013, 10:27 AM   #37
deepcreek
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Quote:
I don't think there really is such a thing, especially if you are one of the parties involved.
Many lawyers and parties that have received large payouts and settlements would disagree with this.
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Old July 26, 2013, 10:36 AM   #38
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Many lawyers would also agree that while we might enjoy a good courtroom scuffle, our clients rarely do. The clients enjoy the settlement check (even though it's never as large as they hope), but they rarely enjoy the litigation leading up to it.
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Old July 26, 2013, 10:50 AM   #39
Jammer Six
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Quote:
The security people at the store go through this on a daily basis.
The premises of this thread are a citizen carrying a legal weapon legally concealed, falsely accused of shoplifting following a legitimate purchase, stopped (by force or without force) by security and asked for his/her weapon, or searched, again, with or without force.

I don't believe for a second that that happens on a daily basis.

If it does, the security in that store needs to get a grip.
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Old July 26, 2013, 11:15 AM   #40
hogdogs
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I just shine them on and keep walking... rarely is anyone following me...

I don't steal and make sure all items are paid for... I don't like feeling suspected when I am doing nothing wrong...

Brent
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Old July 26, 2013, 12:06 PM   #41
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnelmore
So if you are stopped by security at a store they will have good reason and they will know how to handle the situation.
Of course they will. Just like the security guys in a case a couple of years ago who sat on a shoplifting suspect until he died of asphyxiation.

Yep, they're all professionals and they know how to handle it ...
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Old July 26, 2013, 12:13 PM   #42
James K
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"I don't like feeling suspected when I am doing nothing wrong..."

Sounds like something someone else might have said, and his attitude got him in big trouble.

Jim
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Old July 26, 2013, 12:23 PM   #43
Glenn E. Meyer
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Being stopped like this happened to an Insights instructor. Thus, he said - Don't touch me, I want the police to be called.

Nothing was found.

In fact, if you have a cell phone, you might call them yourself and say that you need assistance as you are being detained falsely and need aid.
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Old July 26, 2013, 12:30 PM   #44
BuckRub
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I also just keep walking. Law enforcement may intervene and search bags only. Not ony person without a search warrant. These items are mine, I paid for them. They belong to me now. If I want to stop and drag every item out to show you that's fine but I don't want to show you nothing.
If you was driving from from the hardware store and had an 18 foot trailer filled with boards, sinks, tub, ac, etc. and some other car pulled next to you and said , hey buddy you won't to pull over and unload your trailer and show me what you bought. Hell no ! That's basically the same thing. These items were done bought and paid for.
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Old July 26, 2013, 12:48 PM   #45
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spats McGee
...The clients enjoy the settlement check (even though it's never as large as they hope), but they rarely enjoy the litigation leading up to it.
I've never seen one who enjoyed being deposed and having to answer a lot of personal and intrusive questions.
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Old July 26, 2013, 01:17 PM   #46
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Quote:
FWIW, many major chains in 2013 have do not pursue SOPs. Walmart by policy does not allow LP officers to touch or detain subjects.
Best Buy does allow detention. They detained the crackfiend that stole my mothers car after he entered the store and started acting suspiciously with several accomplices. As she called in the stolen car, dispatchers were able to tell her 'we have the car, its driver is arrested on warrants, and now fresh charges of auto theft can be added'.

I am glad BB doesn't take a hands off approach.
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Old July 26, 2013, 01:19 PM   #47
zincwarrior
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Quote:
Detained by merchant?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My take on this is ONLY a LEO has the authority to search. Private security or store management can detain, but I do not believe they can force you to 'empty your pockets'. All that should be happening is a call to the local LEO and they will handle the situation.

Just my take. I could be completely wrong.
Agreed. Your jurisdiction and mileage may vary, but in Texas, no one can search me or mine unless they are properly badged licensed officials. If they aren't thats battery and I will respond as such.
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Old July 26, 2013, 01:24 PM   #48
Rikakiah
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Quote:
Law enforcement may intervene and search bags only. Not ony person without a search warrant.
I would think probably cause would apply for a search of a person in a shoplifting event. It might require the suspect to wait around while camera footage is reviewed, but if you're perceived as putting something in your clothing, I'm not sure a "take of your jacket so we can examine the pockets" is out of order outside of a full blown warrant.

Either way, if you've done nothing wrong, it's simplest to comply with an actual LE officer's reasonable requests (ie submitting to a basic pat-down, letting him examine personal belongings such as coat/purse). Now a strip search, or requests by non-LEOs are off limits.

More directly on topic, I wouldn't do anything (except sit quietly in a safe place, preferable with a camera view) until a LEO came. After which, everything else should turn out in your favor and you'll shortly be on your way. Carrying or not wouldn't make a difference. The LEO would be notified of your weapon and presented with your permit upon his arrival. Since it's legal, he may request you surrender it to him during his investigation, but there's nothing he can do but return it to you upon his departure.

And for the guy who didn't buy anything, so had no receipt, pretty much the same thing. A search by a uniformed LEO would result in your vindication and you'd be sent on your way.

If a non-LEO insisted and began forcibly searching you, get out your cell, call 911, start screaming "assualt"/whatever, get the attention of anyone and everyone in that store as a "compliant citizen" is being manhandled by an angry shop clerk.
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Old July 26, 2013, 02:05 PM   #49
zincwarrior
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Quote:
The question I have now is what to do if they physically tried to search you? What is the best approach for handling a forceful search, especially if your carrying?
They are not going to try to search you, especially if you publicly denote you want an LEO and call them yourself. That opens them up to liability.

As noted the more realistic risk is a sole propriertorship being stupid. That should be taken care via your own use of the phone for police. To quote the immortal Ferris Bueller: "you touch me and I yell rat!"
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Old July 26, 2013, 03:32 PM   #50
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Interesting law, interesting question ...

I would probably produce the receipt and suggest that they find what hadn't been paid for ... If the manager, rent-a-cop, etc., wasn't satisfied, I'd suggest they request an LEO, who would be told I was armed ... then, I'd hope we could unload my pockets, check my wife's purse, compare the receipt to our purchases and let us go on our way ...

I don't think I am required to disclose I'm armed to a store employee ...

I like the idea of thinking out things ahead of time, not something I'm noted for ...
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