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Old July 26, 2013, 04:11 PM   #1
pelican
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Don't Bring a Bat to a Gun Store

Don’t Bring A Bat To A Gun Store: Man’s Robbery Attempt Fails Miserably

A 22-year-old man tried to rob Discount Gun Sales in Beaverton, Oregon on Thursday with a baseball bat.

Could the store manager, or another employee of this gun store, have legally shot the 22-year-old man?

From Mediaite / By Andrew Kirell

http://www.mediaite.com/online/dont-...ils-miserably/

Last edited by pelican; July 26, 2013 at 09:57 PM. Reason: author
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Old July 26, 2013, 04:37 PM   #2
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I suspect he handle it pretty well these smash and grab type robberies are becoming very common. The robber probably had no intent of using the bat as an offensive weapon, so lethal force was not appropriate.
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Old July 26, 2013, 04:40 PM   #3
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Except that you really don't know his intent.
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Old July 26, 2013, 04:57 PM   #4
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Except that you really don't know his intent.
Very true, but I suspect the store owner wouldn’t have hesitated to use the necessary force if he felt his intent went beyond property crime.
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Old July 26, 2013, 08:35 PM   #5
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Could the store manager, or another employee of this gun store, have legally shot the 22-year-old man?
That depends on many factors. Somebody smashing things with a baseball bat is certainly troublesome behavior.

The good news is that nobody had to shoot.
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Old July 26, 2013, 09:05 PM   #6
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Indeed - good thing.
But...the store owner held the would be thief at gunpoint waiting for police.
Is that kosher?
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Old July 26, 2013, 09:20 PM   #7
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But...the store owner held the would be thief at gunpoint waiting for police.
Is that kosher?
A better option would be....?
Shoot him?
Let him get away?
or???
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Old July 26, 2013, 09:24 PM   #8
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Is that kosher?
You answer.

Guy comes into your gun store and smashes up stuff. Are you and any "reasonable man" in fear for "Great bodily harm, injury or death" or whatever the statutes may read in your area?

It's an interrupted armed robbery in my perception. Even more so because it's a gun shop instead of a store that sells sheets and pillow cases.

At what point do you want to make the decision that you fear for your life?


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Old July 26, 2013, 09:39 PM   #9
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That is one of my local stores, surprised they didn't shoot him.
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Old July 26, 2013, 09:44 PM   #10
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Intuitively I'd say hold him - but we're not cops.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be held - I'm asking if that could be an illegal act in and of itself.
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Old July 26, 2013, 10:07 PM   #11
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What if the gun store manager thought the guy was going to break the glass with the baseball bat, and then grab a gun, and then load it with ammunition he might have had in his pocket?
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Old July 26, 2013, 10:08 PM   #12
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One has already stated the unknowns of ones intent. In the town i live in, (city of 140,000 plus the majority populations of 5 nearby towns roaming its streets) 2 old men were killed inside their gunshop by person(s) with a claw hammer. Their killers were never caught. I can count out litterally ten more unsolved homicides that have taken place sicne that time and those are only the ones made the news.
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Old July 26, 2013, 10:09 PM   #13
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You would legal in Michigan to hold him, seeing how he just committed a felony right in front of you.



Michigan Compiled Law http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(suv...ghlight=arrest

Retail Fraud http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(suv...highlight=356c

Last edited by Corrections Cop; July 26, 2013 at 10:22 PM.
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Old July 27, 2013, 12:25 AM   #14
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orlando fl bat attack, use of force....

If the thug swung the bat around or was violent, then the armed sales clerks or manager could shoot him.
A few months ago a deranged man attacked 2 young women as they entered a condo bldg in downtown Orlando FL. The video of the incident is on YouTube.com .

Bats sticks & impact weapons can kill you just like a knife or a gun.
In the summer of 2011, I had a guy armed with a chair leg threaten me. He had a long criminal history and was later arrested by the police. I pressed charges and he pled guilty.
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Old July 27, 2013, 01:07 AM   #15
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Re: Don't Bring a Bat to a Gun Store

I doubt had they shot and killed him there would be much to levie charges.

Thief smashes gun store display, steals two guns, walks out unstopped or challenged. Later that day he goes and commits multiple murders, then you'd be mad the owner did nothing, be it shooting him or holding him at gun point til the police arrived. Not like he is robbing a candy store. Some states give you the same rights in your business as do your home.
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Old July 27, 2013, 10:11 AM   #16
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Could the store manager, or another employee of this gun store, have legally shot the 22-year-old man?
its not whether its legal, its if its justifiable.... there was a good discussion about this here a while back the real question is did the store manager have to shoot? It doesn't look like he did, it seems he handled it right. I didn't read anything in the article that said the store manager prevented the robber from leaving.... I would have kept my gun drawn too.
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Old July 27, 2013, 03:05 PM   #17
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Don't Bring a Bat to a Gun Store

Repost of what I said on another board:

"I managed that store until June. Left in part because of the owners' pricing policies. It's one of 12 locations in a group. Each location is typically staffed by 1-2 guys, with a couple having 4 behind the counter.



I never met the guys staffing the Northern WA stores, but I knew all of the Portland area managers very well. The manager involved is a friend of mine. He's an Army vet, NRA certified instructor, a better shooter than he lets on, and a very good guy at heart.



I have no idea what the BG was thinking. The shop is on a moderate-heavy traffic road, there are multiple security cameras, and all of us OCed at work every day. It isn't uncommon to have a second guy banging out paperwork in the back, and paperwork guy typically wears a G19 with two spare 17rd mags (and has a background in maritime security).



Very stupid group to try to rob."


I would add that the manager there is very familiar with the local laws, and is a diplomacy-first guy. He's a talker, and prefers to resolve everything calmly.
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Old July 27, 2013, 03:08 PM   #18
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Don't Bring a Bat to a Gun Store

Also:

The managers with the group usually stay behind the counter, which would make it a stretch for a bat-wielding idiot to hit them. The cases are probably about two feet in depth... factor in that they're over waist high, necessity to stand back a half step to swing the bat properly, etc... Yeah.

Knowing him, the manager was probably viewing this as a shoplifting/asset protection situation.
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Old July 27, 2013, 03:51 PM   #19
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I would be unsure of the legality of holding someone at gunpoint. But i don't see many jurisdictions that would prosecute you over it. Especially in a case like this.

The only thing to think about is, what do you do if the guy later decides he doesn't want to be held at gun point anymore. If he first submits, drops his weapon, and lies down on the ground. He is no longer posing a threat and you have little to no justification to shoot him anymore. He then decides he's not just gonna sit here and wait for the cops. Calmly stands up and starts walking away. He's walking out of the store, still posing no threat. What are you gonna do? Shoot him in the back?

I wouldn't bother with all that. My priority would be to get him out of my store and out of my life. Tell him to drop the merchandise and get the hell out of here. Pay attention which way he goes and a description and give that info to the dispatcher.
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Old July 27, 2013, 07:23 PM   #20
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If you point your weapon at him and he drops his bat and calmly walks out of the store...you let him. We're not looking for justification in shooting someone here. We're looking at protecting/defending ourselves against a guy who is willing to walk in to a gun store, knowing or at least easily seeing several armed employees, and still, for some reason, decides to commit the felony of smashing up the place with a Louisville Slugger.

Cops are faced with exactly the same scenario. Point your gun at the bad guy and say "Get down on your knees". If the guy refuses, you don't shoot him. You escalate the use of force continuum. Difference is that with cops, you have more intermediate weapons (strike, chemical, taze) and often more officers to assist in making the physical restraint and arrest.

But back to the orig scenario...Point your gun at the thug who is engaged in behavior which causes you to fear for your life or other's lives or who is putting you or others in fear of great bodily harm and tell him to stop. That's the end of the scenario till he does something else.

The absolute BEST outcome would be the guy walks out without you firing a shot. Let the cops deal with the guy. You and the insurance company deal with the broken up store. You go home at night.


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Old July 27, 2013, 09:13 PM   #21
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The absolute BEST outcome would be the guy walks out without you firing a shot. Let the cops deal with the guy. You and the insurance company deal with the broken up store. You go home at night
A'yup
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Old July 27, 2013, 09:22 PM   #22
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Sometimes I wonder, are people really that stupid?
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Old July 27, 2013, 09:39 PM   #23
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Quote:
But...the store owner held the would be thief at gunpoint waiting for police.
Is that kosher?
You can tell him to stay, but, in my opinion, if he decides to leave, you don't really have many reasonable option for stopping him that won't cause you more trouble than it's worth.
Quote:
The only thing to think about is, what do you do if the guy later decides he doesn't want to be held at gun point anymore. If he first submits, drops his weapon, and lies down on the ground. He is no longer posing a threat and you have little to no justification to shoot him anymore. He then decides he's not just gonna sit here and wait for the cops. Calmly stands up and starts walking away. He's walking out of the store, still posing no threat. What are you gonna do?
If you're smart? Not much other than stand there and watch him leave. Get the license plates of his vehicle if you can, otherwise just get a description and note which way he goes so you can tell the police when they get there.
Quote:
Tell him to drop the merchandise and get the hell out of here.
As long as I'm reasonably sure of a fairly rapid police response, I'd probably tell him to get on the floor and not to move. If he obeys, that's great. If he decides to leave, he'd better do it without coming my direction. If he does leave, I'm just going to watch him go, keeping him covered as he walks out.
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Old July 27, 2013, 11:13 PM   #24
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Don't Bring a Bat to a Gun Store

Called the manager today.

He said he was in the "back room" (a very small space, separated from the sales area by a door. The chair at the desk faces front, one step from the door). He heard the case smash, and jumped to the door.

The first look he got was the BG holding a gun and a bat. He didn't see the knife.

Manager drew and yelled.

BG dropped the gun and bat-- dropped, not set down.

Manager ordered the BG to the ground. BG complied.

Manager contacted police, knowing he would let the BG run if he tried to flee.


He handled it very well.
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Old July 28, 2013, 12:01 AM   #25
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The first look he got was the BG holding a gun and a bat. He didn't see the knife.

Manager drew and yelled.
I'm glad it worked out the way it did.

I'm ambivalent when it comes to the idea of yelling at someone who is in the process of committing a violent felony and who is armed with a firearm. It's sort of a gamble, isn't it...
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