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Old August 12, 2013, 02:35 PM   #76
daddyo
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It doesn't help us to think of the use of lethal force as a "choice." If one resorts to the use of lethal force it should be under circumstance which made its use a necessity.
Frank, I didn't mean it the way you interpreted it. I meant that some folks choose not to fight back. The choice they make is to be a good victim.

The choice we make is to defend ourselves with whatever force necessary.

I agree that the use of deadly force is not chosen but rather forced upon us by the circumstances at hand. Sorry I didn't make that clearer.
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Old August 12, 2013, 02:52 PM   #77
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If you are walking to your car and a thug comes to carjack you and you allowed him to approach you with a gun in his hand without a response then you deserve to be at his mercy. At that point compliance is probably the best course of action.
If somebody comes to carjack you; most likely, they approached so quickly, that they already had a gun drawn before you noticed them.

As for getting robbed at knifepoint. The first occasion I was age 10, and the second I was age 13. This happened, "whilst growing up."

I hate to break it to you, but most prey for criminals are going to be, "the most vulnerable people."

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........my take on this quote is that you don't feel the need for a gun. Why else mention that many of the situations where a gun was justified in being presented but none was presented, are survivable.
I am about 2nd Amendments Rights. -- As far as self defense goes: after all other options are exhausted, I will return deadly force. ** This is how I wish we would train our police officers. Why should I expect any less from myself?
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Old August 12, 2013, 06:52 PM   #78
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If somebody comes to carjack you; most likely, they approached so quickly, that they already had a gun drawn before you noticed them.

As for getting robbed at knifepoint. The first occasion I was age 10, and the second I was age 13. This happened, "whilst growing up."

I hate to break it to you, but most prey for criminals are going to be, "the most vulnerable people."
Vulnerability has nothing to do with saying that most folks survive an encounter that lethal force was justified but not used. That is putting your life in their hands.

As for the carjacker.......its called situational awareness. There is no most likely. I may be more aware than you and less aware that another. If I'm being aware there will be no sneak attack from a gun weilding foe period.
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Old August 12, 2013, 07:18 PM   #79
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If I'm being aware there will be no sneak attack from a gun weilding foe period.
Bad assumption imho.

If you ever need to draw when somebody attacks you, the attack will be be sudden, aggressive, and catch you off guard. The whole thing from start to finish may take place in 8 - 15 seconds. Most of the people who will commit this type of violent crime have already been in and out of jail. They have street experience, they know situations better than you do.

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I may be more aware than you and less aware that another.
Its not a competition to me. There is always somebody quicker, faster, better.
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Old August 12, 2013, 07:40 PM   #80
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A robber with a gun in his waistband is certainly imminent by definition, completely an imminent threat by every known source of information available, and extremely imminent by any trained firearms training expert.
You draw down and open fire whenever your conscience tells you too. Whether or not you are protected by your states laws will be determined by someone other than me.
As for me and my response to potential threats as described there, I would like to think that my response would be to go to the gun as a last possible option. If the gun is not pointed at me it might make more sense for me to give up my wallet. Live to face another day. Thats just me, and my mindset.
When I actually find myself in such a situation is when I will find out what I actually wind up doing.
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Old August 12, 2013, 08:31 PM   #81
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It's interesting (or perhaps it's not( that in other non-gun related forums I've seen this same kind of discussion. In some people's opinions the bad guy is allowed to hit you and if you draw a weapon some of those people think you're being disproportionate in force. I guess some think that a violent encounter in the street means the bad guy will approach and announce his intententions and even be honest about it. "I'm going to bash your face in" to some people is not reason enough to get that evil killing machine out and point it at him. "After all, HE'S not armed". "You'd point a deadly weapon at him just for that?".

When do I draw? When I decide I need to. Not when the governor or the DA decides. And my suggestion to anyone who hasn't made up their mind about that is that they should make up their mind. Arguing that someone else on a discussion forum is wrong about when he/she will draw will not protect or exonerate you when you draw or don't draw.

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Old August 12, 2013, 08:57 PM   #82
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I may be mis-stating, or mis-quoting--if that is the case, I apologize in advance and ask for correction, but:

I seem to recall that the NRA states regularly that about 2 million crimes are prevented annually by the presence and the display of a firearm in the hands of a lawful citizen...without it being discharged. I have no reason to doubt the veracity of that quote. They publish about a dozen first-person accounts in their "The Armed Citizen" monthly, many of which end without a shot fired.

(In the interest of disclosure: I am an NRA Life Member, and have been reading their magazines for years. I photocopy "The Armed Citizen" each month and have a folder full of them. I happily share my folder with anyone who is considering buying a firearm for SD.)

Back on track: Given the opinions of some on this thread, I would think that the papers and jails would be filled with people who unnecessarily "brandished" their firearms without shooting.

I don't see that evidence...anywhere. Care to help point me in the right direction?
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Old August 13, 2013, 06:40 AM   #83
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Bad assumption imho.

If you ever need to draw when somebody attacks you, the attack will be be sudden, aggressive, and catch you off guard. The whole thing from start to finish may take place in 8 - 15 seconds. Most of the people who will commit this type of violent crime have already been in and out of jail. They have street experience, they know situations better than you do.
Where do you get your figures from? How did you determine that the attack will catch me off guard? How do you know that I won't be in condition yellow at the moment the bad guy decides to choose me as prey? What does jail or street experience have to do with my situational awareness? How does my lack of experience in committing a car jacking or of being in prison diminish my ability to maintain SA and successfully defend myself with a firearm?

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Its not a competition to me. There is always somebody quicker, faster, better.
This isn't a western movie gunfight. In the scenario presented there are many dynamics which would mitigate the raw advantages of someone "quicker, faster, and better" than us. As has been recommended to you, situational awareness would allow you to see the onset of this car jacking before it became critical. In but a few seconds the firearm can be readied, cover achieved, and a battle plan formulated. The key is to see the danger before you hear the footsteps as the carjacker approaches.

You should be looking for people acting suspiciously not trying to out draw a carjacker approaching you with his gun leveled. SA will prevent this situation from happening to you.
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Old August 13, 2013, 06:52 AM   #84
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When do I draw? When I decide I need to. Not when the governor or the DA decides. And my suggestion to anyone who hasn't made up their mind about that is that they should make up their mind. Arguing that someone else on a discussion forum is wrong about when he/she will draw will not protect or exonerate you when you draw or don't draw.
I think the key to drawing when you feel you need to is.............if you don't draw something that a reasonable person would consider to potentially cause death or Great bodily harm could have occurred.
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Old August 13, 2013, 11:02 AM   #85
Glenn E. Meyer
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Decided not to go too much off topic.

Just a note on situational awareness. It is hard to maintain vigilance for sustained periods. I opine that folks sometimes overestimate their ability to do such.
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Old August 13, 2013, 12:54 PM   #86
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I draw when I feel the need to, not to shoot or stop the attack but I feel comfortable drawing when you know things have the potential to get bad real quick. I feel alot should draw when needed to de escalate rather than waiting until you're getting the crap beat out of you and got a knife coming at your face. Instead of waiting then and drawing and maybe even shooting wouldn't it be easier to draw when someone is cussing you and advancing you or alot of other scenarios. If you draw and it don't de escalate and you feel threatened for your life and you have no other choice. Then you already have an advantage - simply pull the trigger. Keep it Simple.
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Old August 13, 2013, 01:28 PM   #87
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If you pull a gun out when someone is cussing at you in many states that won't end that good for the person pulling it out and waving it about over something minor like a swearing exchange.
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Old August 13, 2013, 02:28 PM   #88
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Maybe not in some states ! But if someone was progressing towards me and cussing and entering my space and who knows what is fixing to take place - Buddy you just entered my space , made me feel threatened and I am first drawing to de escalate you if not and you see my gun and you keep coming then you leave me no other choice - You've just won a prize to meet your Maker ..
There's so many here that think you have to get your throat slashed first or your head bashed in with a baseball bat. Not me. I choose to draw to stop a finger getting put on me. And if it was that way and I'd get charged for brandishing for trying to protect my life - I think I'd move.
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Old August 13, 2013, 02:36 PM   #89
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And if it was that way and I'd get charged for brandishing for trying to protect my life - I think I'd move.
You can ask the warden don't expect to be moved anywhere nice.
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Old August 13, 2013, 02:44 PM   #90
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It'd be a sad life to walk around and let people do what they want to you because to prevent a injury or even death you're too scared of brandishing. I ain't skeered !!!!
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Old August 13, 2013, 02:44 PM   #91
daddyo
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Decided not to go too much off topic.

Just a note on situational awareness. It is hard to maintain vigilance for sustained periods. I opine that folks sometimes overestimate their ability to do such.
LOL! You opined me real good.

Situational Awareness isn't perfect and it is hard if not impossible to maintain 100 percent all the time. Many however, myself included, maintain a high level of awareness while out in public. I have many times even accessed my firearm discretely because of a potential threat because if I waited for them to become an actual threat, I would have been at a very serious disadvantage. It isn't illegal to access your firearm if only you know it. In over two decades I have either been very lucky or very good with my SA or a combination of both. Lived or worked in or near a high crime area for longer than that.

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SA will prevent this situation from happening to you.
Should have said SA will LIKELY prevent this situation from happening to you.

Last edited by Vanya; August 13, 2013 at 04:29 PM. Reason: removed racial reference.
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Old August 13, 2013, 03:00 PM   #92
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It'd be a sad life to walk around and let people do what they want to you because to prevent a injury or even death you're too scared of brandishing. I ain't skeered !!!!
For a common citizen A gun is a last resort protect your life. A gun should not be a tool to wave around a scare people and make them do what you want.

If you are a member of law enforcement you can get away with waving guns around and commanding people to do what you tell them, if you don't have a badge be prepared to get killed or go to jail.
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Old August 13, 2013, 03:04 PM   #93
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Maybe not in some states ! But if someone was progressing towards me and cussing and entering my space and who knows what is fixing to take place - Buddy you just entered my space , made me feel threatened and I am first drawing to de escalate you if not and you see my gun and you keep coming then you leave me no other choice - You've just won a prize to meet your Maker ..
There's so many here that think you have to get your throat slashed first or your head bashed in with a baseball bat. Not me. I choose to draw to stop a finger getting put on me. And if it was that way and I'd get charged for brandishing for trying to protect my life - I think I'd move.
If someone is cussing you or otherwise acting hostile and in the process of gaining the opportunity by getting close enough to pounce on you and you decide to draw on this threat, it isn't called brandishing. Thats classic preparation for self defense. You are getting ready to stop an imminent threat of death or grave bodily injury.
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Old August 13, 2013, 03:11 PM   #94
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Thanks Daddyo !
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Old August 13, 2013, 03:32 PM   #95
daddyo
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For a common citizen A gun is a last resort protect your life. A gun should not be a tool to wave around a scare people and make them do what you want.

If you are a member of law enforcement you can get away with waving guns around and commanding people to do what you tell them, if you don't have a badge be prepared to get killed or go to jail.
In a very limited few scenarios pulling your gun to get people to do what you want is desirable. The alternative is that you will be forced to fire. A friend was being surrounded by teenagers who he believed were going to offer up a beating. He felt forced to pull much earlier than what he believed the law would accept. Because these kids haden't made any verbal threats other than to say that he was not welcome there, he couldn't articulate an intent. Had he waited until the potential threat began the attack not only would he be forced to fire on a bunch of teenagers but he would have seriously lowered his chances of survival. Because he drew his firearm and displayed it clearly, the attempted assault was averted. He basically let the kids know what they were getting ready to get into and they wisely complied.
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Old August 13, 2013, 03:45 PM   #96
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Good scenario. Most time on here we hear all kinds of people stating they wait to be assaulted before pulling their weapon and every body on here tells you what you need to do to do things legally, then they go back to work as a dentist, plumber, sales, etc.. Never have taken any classes on laws but they think they know them. Lol.
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Old August 13, 2013, 03:54 PM   #97
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Buddy you just entered my space , made me feel threatened and I am first drawing to de escalate you if not and you see my gun and you keep coming then you leave me no other choice - You've just won a prize to meet your Maker ..
There's so many here that think you have to get your throat slashed first or your head bashed in with a baseball bat. Not me. I choose to draw to stop a finger getting put on me. And if it was that way and I'd get charged for brandishing for trying to protect my life - I think I'd move.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem eventually looks like a nail, right?

So basically, you just said that if someone gets all up in your face you are going to draw your weapon and if they don't stop getting in your face, oh yeah and they were all saying how much they were going to beat you up and kill you twice, which made you fear for your safety, so you drew down and then BLAMMO! you pull the trigger and then what happens?
Police arrive, you announce "Under control here! I'mma good guy I just shot someone who was going to kill me twice!"

Are you so fragile that having a finger laid upon you is a threat to your life? Will a finger cause you grave bodily harm?
Quote:
Most time on here we hear all kinds of people stating they wait to be assaulted before pulling their weapon and every body on here tells you what you need to do to do things legally, then they go back to work as a dentist, plumber, sales, etc.. Never have taken any classes on laws but they think they know them. Lol.
And what line of work do you purport to be in? Please tell the rest of the class what has made you such an 'expert' on the use of deadly force as self defense?
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If someone is cussing you or otherwise acting hostile and in the process of gaining the opportunity by getting close enough to pounce on you and you decide to draw on this threat, it isn't called brandishing. Thats classic preparation for self defense. You are getting ready to stop an imminent threat of death or grave bodily injury.
That would bring charges of weapons misconduct and aggravated assault where I live. If you are so easily threatened by someone cussing at you or faking like they are going to hit you, then you really need to rethink this whole gun thing.
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Last edited by Vanya; August 13, 2013 at 04:31 PM. Reason: removed snark.
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Old August 13, 2013, 04:18 PM   #98
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Yea Spaceman looks like you're one of the professionals on here. Lol. Yea I know the law alittle too, I'm a police officer. You may do something one way and I think I do things another. Which way is right ? Both probably. There's always more than one way.
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Old August 13, 2013, 04:23 PM   #99
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Are you so fragile that having a finger laid upon you is a threat to your life? Will a finger cause you grave bodily harm?
I know several men who you wouldn't want to be inside your space should they go off the deep end.

I believe that BuckRub isn't worried about being fingered LOL. It seems he understands the danger in allowing a violent man into his space. At the point that you become justified, according to you, you will no longer be able to pull your firearm should it become necessary. You will be busy fighting off your attacker, getting beat up, getting a severe beating, fighting for control of your firearm, or knocked the heck out.

The average civilian, at this stage in my life I'm included, cannot prevent a truly violent attack from being sucessful without a weapon of some type. Most have no clue as to how violent a man can become and how quickly it can happen. Having trained and fought albeit controlled I have no doubts.

I will wait until I have justification MOST of the time however I will not give up my advantage by allowing a known potential threat to get within my space.
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Old August 13, 2013, 04:34 PM   #100
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I'm going into the chair arm repair business. I sense a tremendous market here.

I'll put my ad over in the for sale section.


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