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Old July 24, 2013, 12:00 AM   #26
Glockstar .40
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Don't agree 100% of those who say only to pull it when wanting to destroy. If I feel the need to pull it I have no problem there then we'll go to using it or other party changed mind and I feel now I don't have to destroy just take the other avenue. As a police officer I'm glad I don't shoot every time I have to pull it out or either point at someone ! Situational awareness is a good thing and did you have to be on wrong side of tracks? But sometimes we do, be aware, keep pistol in a better location such as the need arises
its called discretion. no one said you have to shoot everytime you pull it, but let me ask you this. do you pull it when you dont feel threatened and not ready to destroy what your pointing at? if so thats a problem on a different level.
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Old July 24, 2013, 08:36 AM   #27
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Beat the bum to the punch with "Hey buddy, can you spare a dollar? Got any extra smokes? I just need a dollar to get on the bus."
At one point of my life when I was younger I got so sick of bums asking me for money I started doing this. I would see them make eye contact start to ask.. and then I would say "hey/ do you have any spare change???"
Usually about 1 out of 3 would give me some spare change and want to talk about this and that.

So it back fired on me, lol I hated taking grubby coins from hands that have not been washed in days... lol
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Old July 25, 2013, 07:11 AM   #28
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Vagrants, street bums....

I had an event a few weeks ago when I went to a downtown movie theater to see a afternoon screening of The Lone Ranger.
A street guy wondered over to a couple & panhandled in front of my SUV then walked up to the driver's side window. He started to tap on the glass & I just ignored him. If he got more aggressive, I would have pulled out my M&P .45acp loaded with MagSafe SWAT rounds, .
He got the message & walked off.

Id be leery of being to harsh with homeless or street people.
"Homeless" people or some transients can be considered "hate crimes" if you do anything to them.
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Old July 25, 2013, 07:37 AM   #29
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"Why did you draw?"

"Because I was afraid for my life."

"Then why didn't you fire?"

BECAUSE THE THREAT SUBSIDED

A very simple answer and well within the script of most laws. I'm not "Marshal Dillon" and I'm not going to participate in a quick draw competition with a threat if I have any other choice. If I feel threatened, I WILL have my hand on my gun or my gun in my hand-but obscured. This has happened on two occasions and both times the aggressor realized he'd picked the wrong mark and he retreated.
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Old July 25, 2013, 03:04 PM   #30
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My point, exactly. The threat "subsided" without a shot.

No draw necessary. In the view of an anti-gunner on a jury, that's guilty.

I'd think that folks who worried about the liability involved in the type and source of their ammo would put more thought into the decision of when to draw.

A weapon is not a magic wand.
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Last edited by Vanya; July 25, 2013 at 08:03 PM. Reason: we don't do liberals vs conservatives.
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Old July 25, 2013, 03:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
"Why did you draw?"

"Because I was afraid for my life."

"Then why didn't you fire?"

BECAUSE THE THREAT SUBSIDED
This. I've been in this situation many times over the years. The threat usually ends without violence since most criminals are cowards at heart. That's why they look for weaker targets.
On a funny side note, the wife and I approached two trespassers at my shop one early morning, guns drawn, but at our sides and asked what they were doing there. Surprise, surprise! Two undercover LEO's! She covered while I had them slowly show ID after I explained I was armed and revealed my weapon and nodded to her to show hers.
They complied and we had an embarressed laugh about it.
As a rule though, you never have to clear leather if you're situationally aware of what's going down.
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Old July 25, 2013, 03:31 PM   #32
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I posted pix recently of an altercation I had in May of this year. It seems pertinent to this thread.
Here's the portion of the thread and the pix. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=525045&page=5
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Idiot with Spiked Club of Nails (3).jpg (207.4 KB, 65 views)
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Old July 25, 2013, 08:23 PM   #33
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#3. My response would come from something I read on this forum. Don't do anything when you are carrying that you wouldn't do if you weren't armed. So in your situation; being polite and driving away would be the best policy.
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Old July 27, 2013, 08:59 PM   #34
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I just want to add that while it is fine to view potentially threatening situations in retrospect and ask what one might have done better, I also think it is important to avoid taking on a general feeling of threat whenever approached by random individuals. My experience has been that the overwhelming majority of individuals that I encounter really are decent folks deserving of courtesy, respect, and if they are down on their luck, a measure of kindness.

I'm in no way arguing against the advice offered here, but it is important to remember that even in some of the roughest neighborhoods, the overwhelming majority of people you will encounter are just plain good folks.

So, yeah, make sure you spot the guy walking up on you, and keep aware for any signs that he might have some less than friendly intent, but also be open to just plain being a good member of the community.

(In my youth, I hitchhiked extensively, unarmed, unaware, reckless, and no doubt lucky but also encountered essentially salt of the earth folks even in places where I really did not expect such).
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Old July 29, 2013, 03:38 PM   #35
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True story....

Years ago, around 2001 or so, I was doing a security detail at a low end apt complex in a medium size city. 2 guys came into the property manager's office, one looked like a surfer bum with cargo shorts, tank top and sandals. The other older guy wore a workshirt, vest and 5.11 type pants. He looked like a constructor worker or building contractor.
Both guys turned out to be; deputy US marshals.
Both men were polite & professional, explaining to us that they were looking for a fugitive in the area.
My point is that you can't always make assessments or decisions based only on a person's appearance or other factors. Their actions or statements? Yes but you can get in a lot of hot water if you are wrong.

If there was a event you can absolutely bet both deputy US marshals would show in court to testify with fresh hair-cuts, clean shaven, wearing business suits. The judge and jury will look at you like you just kicked their dog, .
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Old July 29, 2013, 04:43 PM   #36
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^ The story reminds me of a experience I had once.

Once I was in NYC I was going to a concert at MSG and was there early to check out the scene and walk around. It was average NYC a dirty bum pushing a shopping cart full of trash, a crackhead trying to spare change, a biker in a leather riding vest and a few other assorted street characters.

All the sudden they all pulled out guns and handcuffs and yelled "DEA" "Get on the ground" tossed 2 guys to the ground smashed their faces into the street and cuffed them. Cars started pulling up and more agents.

Craziest thing to see a dirty bum pushing a shopping cart full of trash and a few other street bums turn into a DEA thugs with a guns in less then a few seconds.
yea just never know.

Last edited by Vanya; July 29, 2013 at 08:55 PM. Reason: language.
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Old July 29, 2013, 05:40 PM   #37
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Ya just never know.

I arrested what I thought was a drug dealer one night, turned out he was an undercover Louisiana State Trooper. I thought that he'd be angry, but he thanked me later, said it gave him street cred. I told him that the next time he was working my parish, to let the desk know and we'd stay the hell away from his location. He worked the area hard for about a month, when his "arraignment" would be due, then we helped him serve about 15 warrants on cases he had made.

Good busts every one.
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Old July 30, 2013, 02:48 PM   #38
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Quote:
"Why did you draw?"

"Because I was afraid for my life."

"Then why didn't you fire?"

Seaman has the answer I use most often: compassion and spare change.
I try to deliver the compassion and spare change while the engine is running and the vehicle is in drive. And if I get time, the gun is in hand and out of sight- for example, below my seat in the truck. Just because you draw, it doesn't mean it has to be visible.
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Old August 7, 2013, 11:39 PM   #39
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Part of situational awareness is knowing where to eat lunch.
Driving away could be an option. Keeping doors locked and windows up helps.
Sticking the gun in your crotch (between legs) might work... depending on the gun. I would not do this with my Glock but have with my S&W 442 JFrame revolver. Keeping an eye on your mirrors is beneficial.
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Old August 8, 2013, 09:03 AM   #40
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"I got myself in a situation a few weeks back where I realized I could have been had. A gentleman approached me asking for money on the passenger side while I was parked eating lunch on the wrong side of the tracks. He was pleasant enough and I was able to dispatch him politely.

Upon leaving I realized so many mistakes I made:
1. I never saw the guy come up.
2. My pistol was in the center console and so not immediately available.
3. Should I have just told him to bug off and get away from my truck off the bat?
4. What would I do had he refused, but was not threatening entry?
5. If he did threaten entry my pistol in the console would have taken an extra move to draw.

Food for thought. "

Hello everyone my virgin post LOL.

1. Situational awareness
2. Have the gun accessible
3. I like the polite confidence route (with better SA you could have closed the windows)
4. Start up and leave but be prepared for him to attack
5. Don't get caught like that anymore.

The grey area in self defense IMO is when someone capable of causing death or grave bodily injury with their bare hands, gets within hands reach of you without you knowing what his intentions are. A punch is light years faster than a draw. Kinda sorta what happened to you here. Situational awareness being as vital as keeping distance between you and them until you can figure out their intent. Of course be prepared to engage the threat if need be.

Everybody gets "caught" flat footed. Don't believe anyone who says otherwise. For me my job is to reduce the frequency of getting caught off guard and the number of potentially dangerous people that get close.
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Old August 9, 2013, 09:21 PM   #41
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I had a large belligerent street bum approach me in an ally I was walking through in Detroit for work. It was daytime but on Saturday morning when this part of downtown D is no longer hopping with office workers. He was almost shouting that he was a vet and needed some money. I was backing up saying sorry I had none but he continued at a quick pace towards me. Walking backwards facing him I came up to a concrete like structure by the alley and proceeded to lift my shirt up to access the grip of my sp101 just in case. At that exact moment he turned and walked off the other direction.
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Old August 9, 2013, 11:15 PM   #42
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Same thing happened to me a few blocks away from Greektown,
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Old August 10, 2013, 12:13 AM   #43
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Quote:
My point, exactly. The threat "subsided" without a shot.

No draw necessary. In the view of an anti-gunner on a jury, that's guilty.
So once a person draws they have to shoot, or they're guilty of drawing when it wasn't necessary? That is not only incorrect, it is absolutely ridiculous.

It's certainly possible (probable, even) to have, not only justification to draw, but also justification to shoot, and then have the threat vacate the premises at top speed when the firearm begins to make its presence known. By your logic, the defender would have to go ahead and shoot the fleeing attacker to prove justification for the draw or he'd be guilty of drawing unnecessarily.
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Old August 10, 2013, 12:52 AM   #44
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At what point do you draw?

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Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
My point, exactly. The threat "subsided" without a shot.

No draw necessary. In the view of an anti-gunner on a jury, that's guilty.
Um, what? Not only is that wrong, it is WAY wrong.

Do you know how many times gun owners legally draw a weapon in self defense and yet don't have to shoot every year? Wanna know how many I them are found guilty of something to the extent of 'drawing without justification'?...
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Old August 10, 2013, 08:44 AM   #45
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We would have found him innocent if he had fired. But he drew but didn't fire. We find him guilty.

...


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Old August 10, 2013, 09:26 AM   #46
johnwilliamson062
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That can be especially true in areas where anything perceived as "disrespect" can make someone feel like they have to fight or be perceived as weak themselves.
I would never assume the person I am talking to won't react in that way. Being polite and confident is the correct route in all of these situations. Minimal polite interaction.

I wouldn't pull unless I intend to use it or I am facing multiple opponents. With multiple people they may think they can easily take you without risk. The only way to make them think otherwise may be to let them know you are armed. With one person, even if they are sure they will win a fight, they probably aren't sure they won't get hurt in a fight. If you make it clear you will fight they will almost certainly back off.
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Old August 11, 2013, 10:52 AM   #47
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I'm surprised so many on this forum have forgotten one of the basic rules of gun use: Never point a gun at anything you don't intend to shoot.

Leo's operate by a different set of laws than civilians do. If a civilian takes a gun out and points it at someone, it is (at best) brandishing a weapon, something you are going to jail for.

In the civilian world using a gun, or any deadly force, to defend yourself must be based on the IMMENIENT theat of death or bodily harm. It's not enough that the other guy had a knife on him, that knife must be drawn back ready to strike. If a robber has a gun in his belt, and you shoot him, you will go to jail. The robbers gun would have to be locked, loaded, and aimed...an IMMINIENT THREAT. Didn't everyone have to take a concealed carry class?
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Old August 11, 2013, 11:28 AM   #48
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At what point do you draw?

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Originally Posted by Sierra280 View Post
In the civilian world using a gun, or any deadly force, to defend yourself must be based on the IMMENIENT theat of death or bodily harm. It's not enough that the other guy had a knife on him, that knife must be drawn back ready to strike. If a robber has a gun in his belt, and you shoot him, you will go to jail. The robbers gun would have to be locked, loaded, and aimed...an IMMINIENT THREAT. Didn't everyone have to take a concealed carry class?
Wrong on several levels. If someone has drawn a knife on me, I am legally allowed to draw my weapon. I do not have to wait for him to draw it back to strike at me, nor do I have to let him get within striking range. To shoot, perhaps, but not to draw.

If a robber has a gun in his belt, then I can draw. I do not in any way have I prove that it was locked and loaded. The fact that he has a gun and him robbing a location has been shown to be reasonable assumption that the gun is loaded and any civilian gun owner or LEO can react regardless of the actual condition of the gun.

To shoot the knife wielding attacker, then yes, he must be advancing on me. But I do not have to wait until he is advancing o draw.

To shoot the robber, he must be trying to pull the gun out from his waistband - but I do not have to wait for him to aim it.


If you want to follow your own advice, then go for it. But it is far from correct and is no way a way to win a life or death fight.
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Old August 11, 2013, 11:37 AM   #49
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I don't entirely disagree with all around hunter, but if you actually fire the weapon you have out , you might find your local DA does disagree with you. That's the point I was trying to make.
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Old August 11, 2013, 11:42 AM   #50
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At what point do you draw?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sierra280 View Post
I don't entirely disagree with all around hunter, but if you actually fire the weapon you have out , you might find your local DA does disagree with you. That's the point I was trying to make.
Sierra, at ANY point that you fire a gun at a human being the DA disagreeing with you is possible. However, what you describe as 'imminent' is actually much further than you should allow a threat to escalate before drawing.
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