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Old July 15, 2013, 02:41 PM   #1
gusser33
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Smith and Wesson - failing in todays market

I have purchased two S&W pistols, one MP22 and a model 41. I got rid of the MP because it was just cheap, not reliable at all compared to my other pistols, especially the CZ. The model 41 has been a total disaster. It had constant Failure to fire and discharge problems. Perhaps two to three per magazine. It has been back twice and now there is a problem with the 7" barrel. It amazes me that a pistol costing just south of $1,300. could be constructed so poorly. Well, let me rephrase that, it seems impossible that a gun of such high materials and hand assembled and fit could be fit so poorly. My whole dealing with S&W started off fine and then just crumbled. They don't return calls, tell you it is shipping...it doesn't and tell you they will work on it as soon as they get it and then it sits there for a month. I have learned a lesson in buying this gun as i wanted to buy an American Made Product. So much for that. I will stick with CZ and recommend you do the same.
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Old July 15, 2013, 03:18 PM   #2
buck460XVR
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Sorry to hear about your misfortunes with S&W. While the MP22 has never really been a popular rimfire handgun, the 41 is considered one of the best out there. Does CZ even make a .22 rimfire pistol anymore other than a conversion?
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Old July 15, 2013, 04:12 PM   #3
saleen322
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Smith 41

gusser33 wrote:
Quote:
I have purchased two S&W pistols, one MP22 and a model 41. I got rid of the MP because it was just cheap, not reliable at all compared to my other pistols, especially the CZ. The model 41 has been a total disaster. It had constant Failure to fire and discharge problems. Perhaps two to three per magazine. It has been back twice and now there is a problem with the 7" barrel. It amazes me that a pistol costing just south of $1,300. could be constructed so poorly. Well, let me rephrase that, it seems impossible that a gun of such high materials and hand assembled and fit could be fit so poorly. My whole dealing with S&W started off fine and then just crumbled. They don't return calls, tell you it is shipping...it doesn't and tell you they will work on it as soon as they get it and then it sits there for a month. I have learned a lesson in buying this gun as i wanted to buy an American Made Product. So much for that. I will stick with CZ and recommend you do the same.
If it makes you feel any better, I have to agree with you. I have a number of .22 pistols and the two photos below shows some of them. What you won't see is a model 41 as I never had one that I wanted to keep. I own and have shot some of the finer target pistols available and it is a shame because S&W makes some good stuff; I currently have 7 Smiths but no 41s. The 52 and 952 I have are great so it baffles me that the 41s I shot are not. However on the bright side, the new High Standards are made in the US and shoot better than the older Hamden models I have. Last I checked they were still under $1,000 with a lifetime warranty. The only down side is they are sometimes hard to get. I do understand what you are saying and maybe S&W will make some changes.

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Old July 15, 2013, 04:13 PM   #4
TexAg
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That stinks big time. Sorry about your misfortune. My latest two S&W products have been flawless: an M&P Sport and a 15-22.
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Old July 15, 2013, 04:19 PM   #5
Water-Man
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Have fun with your rimfires and CZs.
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Old July 15, 2013, 04:24 PM   #6
Jim Watson
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Quote:
the new High Standards are made in the US and shoot better than the older Hamden models I have.
I think that is the first good word I have seen about a Texas High Standard.
I treasure my old one.
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Old July 15, 2013, 04:30 PM   #7
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The M&P-22 is made under license, by Walther I think, for S&W. So it's not a true S&W product, but it does bear their name and they are responsible for it. I generally am not overly concerned if a rimfire pistol isn't overly reliable, but if it was every single magazine I could understand the frustration. I generally hear positive things about the pistol, though I hear magazines are next to impossible to find. You mention comparing to the CZs you own. Unless you're comparing it to the Kadet kit, it's a bit unfair to compare a rimfire pistol to a centerfire pistol. I do think the Kadet kit is one of the best semi-automatic 22 options out there.

As for your Model 41 that is truly unfortunate. By failure to discharge I assume you mean failure to eject. Handfit guns can be finnicky. I had a S&W 1911 Pro Shop model, $1300, that had to go back to the factory to start working right. It came back working fine at least, which doesn't sound like the case for you. As for the long waits, remember that S&W is a big company and the past few months with the buying panic and what not have been insane for all gun companies. They don't work on it as soon as they get it because there are people ahead of you. It's not 12 guys sitting around in a shop whistling.

You obviously had some bad experiences, I can't deny those. But rimfire pistols can be pains in the butt. That's why I just stick to Ruger Mk models. They just plain work. Lastly, I think saying, "S&W failing in today's market" is a bit of hyperbole. The majority of the response to their products is popular, their stock is up, and if anything the company is generally well received. A sample size of one, while understandably unfortunate for you, can never measure a whole company.
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Old July 15, 2013, 04:46 PM   #8
carguychris
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Quote:
I got rid of the MP because it was just cheap, not reliable at all compared to my other pistols, especially the CZ.
FWIW the M&P22 is produced in the Umarex plant in Köln (Cologne), Germany, via S&W's former distribution arrangement with Walther, which is a Umarex subsidiary. It's really not quite a Smith & Wesson.

That said, I've shot an M&P22, and found it functional, reliable, and adequately accurate for a cheap plinker... which I basically how I regard this gun. It's in the SR-22 or P22 class.
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Old July 15, 2013, 04:52 PM   #9
saleen322
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Quote:
I think that is the first good word I have seen about a Texas High Standard. I treasure my old one.
While I like (and own) the old ones, the new ones shoot better. The Texas High Standards can say three things in response, from three different Houston guns....

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Old July 15, 2013, 08:03 PM   #10
Dixie Gunsmithing
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I think that is the first good word I have seen about a Texas High Standard.
I treasure my old one.
I have an old Supermatic, with the ported bull barrel, the same model and vintage that won the Olympics in the 50's, and it is deadly accurate. Everything is original, but they bought the target walnut grip option, and I don't have the brown plastic grips, unless it was ordered that way. I still have both counterweights for it, but never use them. I use this at the range now.

I think the Hamden ones got a bad name at the end, when they dropped the button takedown, and switched to a cap screw, but I bought a Sportking M like that, in the early 80's, and installed a Millet adjustable sight, and it was a tack driver, too. I used it to coon hunt with back then, and it was as good as any rifle I ever used. Generally, no more than two shots, and the coon was out of the tallest oak in the woods. Just as long as I could see the sights, and coon, it was deadly.

I have looked at the new ones, but never really set down and shot one for fun. I didn't know if they rifled the Texas guns the same or not, as that was one of the keys to their success.
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Old July 15, 2013, 08:16 PM   #11
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saleen322, man you got some nice tastes. See a couple i want to add to my stable.
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Old July 15, 2013, 08:31 PM   #12
ritepath
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The M&P 22 isn't that some kind of pot metal tinker toy from Europe?
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Old July 15, 2013, 09:31 PM   #13
ranchito457
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I also have an MP that I bought new and is the biggest piece of garbage that I ever spent money on.From the first day the thing has not shot a whole mag without some-kind of failures.It's the gun I put in back of the safe and just forgot about not even gonna waste my time sending it in.But on the other hand I cant say a bad word about any of there revolvers!
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Old July 15, 2013, 11:41 PM   #14
saleen322
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Quote:
...I think the Hamden ones got a bad name at the end, when they dropped the button takedown, and switched to a cap screw...
Those where the last of CT guns that I believe were the "SH" series made after the move to East Hartford, CT. The quality was not good and screw was used because it required less fitting than the button.

Quote:
saleen322, man you got some nice tastes. See a couple i want to add to my stable.
Thank you. I have the "disease" and can't walk past a nice target pistol. I think every pistol guy or girl should--at least once--shoot a high end gun. To shoot a Hammerli 208, a free pistol, something with an electronic trigger, etc; it gives you an appreciation for how well something can actually function.
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Old July 16, 2013, 12:08 AM   #15
Dixie Gunsmithing
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Quote:
The quality was not good and screw was used because it required less fitting than the button.
You're correct, as I know the finish could have been better, and the screw took out a good bit of machining. The Sport King stamp on the frame was almost polished off towards the front, on mine, and it looked like they stopped off at something like 180 grit for polish. If I remember, that pistol had a bead blasted top to the the slide, and the grip on the frame. They were the last ones available when they closed the doors, as I bought mine about a year before. It was still a very good shooting and accurate pistol though, especially after I changed the rear sights. Millet quit making that sight, and I would have thought it might have been picked back up, or when they started making the pistols in Texas, but I don't think they ever did. I would think that one to fit a Colt or Browning may be made to fit them though. However, we can buy sights direct from High Standard, now, and they are really good, as the only difference between the Sport King and the Field King was the sights.

I hadn't been to their website in a while, but earlier, I noticed that not only did they bring back the Olympic or 'space gun', but they are now making the Duramatic, which I never thought I would see again. If they would only bring back the Double Nine Convertible, with the steel frame, I would buy one, as I enjoyed them too for plinking.
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Old July 16, 2013, 12:45 AM   #16
Venom1956
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MP22 is from our friends across the pond @ Umarex.
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Old July 17, 2013, 07:04 AM   #17
kcub
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Saleen322, nice pistols as usual. I always liked HiStandards but passed on them as I am a lefty and they usually had a right handed thumb grip that made it a no-go for me. Is there a Texas HiStandard with an ambi grip?

I love that Browning Medalist. I have one with a full lefty grip that I treasure.
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Old July 17, 2013, 12:21 PM   #18
saleen322
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Quote:
Saleen322, nice pistols as usual. I always liked HiStandards but passed on them as I am a lefty and they usually had a right handed thumb grip that made it a no-go for me. Is there a Texas HiStandard with an ambi grip?

I love that Browning Medalist. I have one with a full lefty grip that I treasure.
Thank you. I did a quick check on their website and they show Left Hand grips as parts. I also have a set or 2 of Pachmeyer grips that are ambi but I don't know if they still make them. Here is the part number:
10327 Grips, Right Side - All Models (Walnut Checkered) L.H. Thumbrest, 10328 Grips, Left Side - All Models (Walnut Checkered) L.H. Flat

I too love the Medalist. In the first picture, there is a later model international Medalist made by FN that was one of my most enjoyable finds; I think it was $4-500 at a gun show from a guy who did not deal in target pistols and just wanted to move it. The gun even had 2 original mags that made the deal that much sweeter. I shoot it on a regular basis as I have the other one to look at!
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Old July 17, 2013, 05:43 PM   #19
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I lost my love for S&W when they began phasing out the 3rd gen autos to make way for an aberration called the 'Sigma'.
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Old July 17, 2013, 09:04 PM   #20
WIN1886
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I can't agree with you on the model 41.....mine is superb ! Its been an accurate & reliable pistol for over 25 years and it gets used often ( I would have no idea the total high shot count after shooting so many bricks of 22 match ammo ) !
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Old July 18, 2013, 12:11 AM   #21
USVI
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"I lost my love for S&W when they began phasing out the 3rd gen autos to make way for an aberration called the 'Sigma'."

Yup, nailed it. My 4006 was the last S&W I owned.

This...

To this...


= total fail.

Last edited by USVI; July 18, 2013 at 12:20 AM.
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Old July 18, 2013, 06:22 AM   #22
kcub
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I have a SW1911 pro series in 9mm and it is stunningly beautiful. Well made and reliable too. Accuracy is good but not great which it should have been for the price. Grips are awesome and different.

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Old July 18, 2013, 07:21 AM   #23
saleen322
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Smith & Wesson

If they all looked and shot like my 952, you would not hear a bad word about S&W from me.

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Old July 18, 2013, 09:34 AM   #24
deepcreek
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I shot a MP in 9mm a few months ago, I was very disappointed. It just felt cheap like a toy gun. My wife wanted to try one out because the grips felt nice but as soon as she fired it she was like "no".
I also shot a 1911 pro that day that was a sweet gun, accurate, smooth, just nice and fun to shoot.

I have a 22a which is a good shooter, kind of cheap but reliable and runs like a charm.

I still like S&W guns but not the MP series.
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Old July 18, 2013, 09:50 AM   #25
Jayhawkhuntclub
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The M&P (centerfire) pistol series has an excellent reputation as tough and reliable. You won't find many bad reviews. I have a M&P 9 compact. It is an excellent gun: accurate, rugged and well designed.

The M&P 22 pistol is different story. It doesn't surprise me when someone has issues with one.
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