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Old July 14, 2013, 10:17 AM   #51
Wreck-n-Crew
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Do you think this trial will adversely affect stand-your-ground laws?
If political pressure from within a given state causes the state to give in, then I see it as a possibility, but not on a national level due to the fact that state rights to self govern and their current law supersedes the federal law and some states will not waiver to political spin.

Keep in mind the political spin on this case has reached a level that it never should have. The repeated statements like "loosing a fight" rather than "being assaulted" are designed specifically to warp the truth and spin the truth.

Unfortunately people tend to believe something repeated and the majority of the media have political motivation. Until there is proper and fair reporting of facts the US will change politically through methods of "Politics by Media" in ways they never would have.
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Old July 14, 2013, 10:20 AM   #52
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It will most likely result in considerable debate about stand-your-ground, but it shouldn't. This was never a stand-your-ground case.

If Zimmerman's story is the version you accept, both people had a right to be in the complex but Zimmerman was jumped, pinned to the ground, and was having his head beat against a concrete sidewalk. Retreat (irrespective of whether or not it could have been accomplished "in complete safety" was not an option. In his mind (according to this theory) it was shoot in self defense ... or die. In fact, he says Martin said "You're going to die tonight."

Conversely, if you choose to accept the version that Martin didn't initiate the physical conflict, you have to believe that Zimmerman shot him just because he was there and he was black -- the prosecution's argument. In this version, it wasn't Martin who used the deadly force, so again it would not have been a stand-your-ground case.

Just before the verdict, I saw some taking heads advancing the argument that Martin had a right to "stand his ground." But there is no evidence that he did so. Either he was shot in cold blood, or he initiated an assault against Zimmerman, which the Florida stand-your-ground law does NOT convey a right to do. You can defend yourself against a physical assault, but the law doesn't create or convey any right to initiate an assault because you think the other person is a "creepy-a$$ cracker of a white guy."

I think stand-your-ground is solid law and simply codifies what should be (and what some people say has always been) in common law anyway. Laws that dictate that a victim MUST attempt to flee before being allowed to defend themselves are an affront to decency and to common sense. And the related notion that a victim who succeeds in defending him/herself could then be vulnerable to a civil lawsuit by the assailant of the assailants heirs is likewise an affront to decency and to common sense.
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Old July 14, 2013, 10:22 AM   #53
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Do you think this trial will adversely affect stand-your-ground laws? I see this verdict putting pressure on proposed laws and possibly on jurisdictions with SYG already on the books.
A few states may tweak their "stand your ground" laws due to media pressure: Most states will not. The state of OK will not. One media outlet in OK City predicted the end of the OK "stand your ground" law after a local prosecutor gave three passes for righteous shoots in a short period. Few, if any, in the OK legislature noticed.
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Old July 14, 2013, 10:23 AM   #54
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I thought one of the news channels reported tha Florida Law is- If you are proven Innocent, no wrongfull law suit can be brought against you.
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Old July 14, 2013, 10:49 AM   #55
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The DOJ will have a harder row to hoe for a hate crime conviction considering the result of the FBI investigation was that race was NOT a factor.

Something I have not seen discussed but is relevant is that the defense was forced to file motions to get the color photos of Zimmerman's injuries instead of a grainy black and white photo the prosecution gave them. Several requests were ignored.
When you see the photos side by side the differences are remarkable in showing the injuries.
Also in the same motion was a request for the polygraph that was passed successfully the night of the incident. Same reasons, requests ignored.

Mark O’Mara has filed Motions for Sanctions Against The State for Discovery Violations.

Amazing.....
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Old July 14, 2013, 11:36 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by 4runnerman
I thought one of the news channels reported tha Florida Law is- If you are proven Innocent, no wrongfull law suit can be brought against you.
See post #26. I cited the law, and explained why I think it does not automatically protect Zimmerman. Zimmerman's own attorney, O'Mara, seems to agree. He acknowledged that a civil suit could be initiated.
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Old July 14, 2013, 11:38 AM   #57
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Senator Harry Reid says" it's not over" and called for the JD to take action.

http://m.weeklystandard.com/blogs/ha...er_739363.html
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Old July 14, 2013, 12:37 PM   #58
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See post #26. I cited the law, and explained why I think it does not automatically protect Zimmerman. Zimmerman's own attorney, O'Mara, seems to agree. He acknowledged that a civil suit could be initiated.
In yesterday's post-verdict presser, spoke to this and indicated that if civil litigation were initiated, he would seek and obtain a judgement of civil immunity. Though I cannot cite his specific wording from memory, he made it quite clear that he did not think he would have any trouble obtaining such an order of immunity. And I don't think he will either.
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Old July 14, 2013, 01:47 PM   #59
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I have 2 questions about law and civil rights as it pertains to the Zimmerman trial.

1. Wouldn't a civil trial violate the 5th amendment double jeopardy clause? The double jeopardy clause prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for the same crime.

2. Why is the federal department of justice involved in a local crime? The NAACP has requested the President and DOJ to pursue civil action.
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Old July 14, 2013, 01:57 PM   #60
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It has happened before. The civil rights violation is a separate crime and the Feds have the ability to do such. It happened for Rodney King but not for Diallo, IIRC.

Thread lightly folks - a hint.
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Old July 14, 2013, 03:03 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pturner67
1. Wouldn't a civil trial violate the 5th amendment double jeopardy clause? The double jeopardy clause prohibits anyone from being prosecuted twice for the same crime.
Are you asking about a civil lawsuit, or are you asking about a federal criminal trial for violation of [Martin's] civil rights?

Glenn E. Meyer addressed the second. If you're asking about a civil lawsuit -- that's a civil lawsuit, not a criminal prosecution. That would be the same as the O.J. Simpson civil lawsuit for wrongful death. He lost, and was ordered to pay a bunch of money (that he allegedly didn't have), but no criminal conviction and no criminal sentence.
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Old July 14, 2013, 03:08 PM   #62
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Post 54; Mylicensesite.com .....

To answer post #54, Florida does have laws that say a W license holder or armed citizen who is cleared of wrong-doing by the courts or State Atty's Office can have immunity from civil lawsuits or wrongful death claims.
Keep in mind, lawyers or estates of "victims" can still try to take civil actions against a armed citizen, even in FL. This point was made by author & legal expert in use-of-force expert: Massad Ayoob in a recent issue of Combat Handguns.

Florida's concealed carry & weapons laws/license information is here; www.Mylicensesite.com .
Mark O'Mara said in the Sat, 07/13/2013 media briefing he'd make sure George Zimmerman was cleared in those civil actions as well, IAW Florida law.

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Old July 14, 2013, 03:48 PM   #63
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"Can have" is not the same as "does have" immunity. I quoted the law in post #26. The law explicitly says there must be a court ruling of immunity -- it is not automatic.

Mark O'Mara did not say he would "make sure George Zimmerman was cleared in those civil actions as well." What he said was quoted in numerous articles taken directly from his comments at the press conference.

Quote:
O'Mara said if anyone tries to sue Zimmerman, "we will seek and we will get civil immunity in a civil hearing. And we will see just how many civil lawsuits have spawned from this fiasco."
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Old July 14, 2013, 05:11 PM   #64
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The double jeopardy clause only applies to subsequent criminal prosecutions by the same sovereign. Since the state and federal governments are separate sovereigns they each get one crack at prosecuting someone based on the same set of facts.

Civil suit and civil rights prosecution are two separate things.
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Old July 14, 2013, 06:28 PM   #65
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I think someone needs to launch immediate FOIA requests, the facts we have already seen retaliation against "whistle blowers" tells me this could be the duke rape case part 2.

I would also like to see if D.C. was in any way shape or form pressuring Florida to charge Zimmerman(I am sure they were).
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Old July 14, 2013, 06:49 PM   #66
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Quote:
A few states may tweak their "stand your ground" laws due to media pressure: Most states will not.
Yes, but if even one does so, it could start something we don't need. In many places, the passage of SYG laws was an uphill battle. The other side claimed the streets would run with blood and that the laws were a license to kill.

They're going to work this angle to the hilt in the coming weeks and months. I could see it gaining support in some states.

The DOJ has now announced that they're looking into a possible prosecution.
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Last edited by Tom Servo; July 14, 2013 at 07:43 PM.
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Old July 14, 2013, 06:56 PM   #67
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I would like to see Zimmerman now ask his lawyers to sue the crap out of all the news medias, pundits and talking heads, organizations, and etc., which went out of their way to demonize him in their attempt to proclaim him guilty before the trial/verdict.
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Old July 14, 2013, 06:59 PM   #68
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Famas, we discussed that on the last page. It's not a very easy or feasible course of action, and even if his attorneys win, it won't cow the networks in the least.
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Old July 14, 2013, 07:19 PM   #69
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Politics, fall-out....

The Florida States Atty Office IT guy was fired by Angela Corey on Fri, 07/11/2013(before the verdict was rendered).
He spoke out about the cell phone pics & other material that the prosecutors & staff wanted to keep quiet.

The IT guy & former Sanford PD chief Bill Lee really got the shaft in this case.
As for Lee's run for sheriff, I highly doubt it.
The sting from the GZ event(s) may keep him out of public service.
Seminole's Sheriff Don Eisenger is doing a good job & he gets re-elected.
FWIW; Bill Lee retired from the Seminole County Sheriff's Office so he's not in a major bind or unable to pay his bills.

As posted in other topics & messages, the State Atty; Norm Wolfinger decided not to put criminal charges on GZ.
The residents & local media should put more faith in their elected officials when there are difficult or high-profile cases.
If they(the voters or citizens) disagree with the local elected officials, vote them out.

A big problem with the GZ incident was the public's rush to judge/convict GZ without due process.

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Old July 14, 2013, 07:30 PM   #70
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Quote:
Back in 1995, a football player was found not guilty of murder, but a later civil suit found him liable based on preponderance of evidence.
No Stand Your Ground protections from civil suits, after being found innocent in a criminal trial, in California.
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Old July 14, 2013, 07:42 PM   #71
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I'm not convinced that a state law SYG provision could successfully shield Zimmerman from a federal criminal suit.

Tom, the AP has taken down that page you linked about the announcement.
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Old July 14, 2013, 07:44 PM   #72
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The AP appears to obfuscate links for some reason. I updated it.

Quote:
I'm not convinced that a state law SYG provision could successfully shield Zimmerman from a federal criminal suit.
I think you're right. However, I'm not sure whether he can invoke SYG at all.
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Old July 14, 2013, 08:09 PM   #73
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The DOJ has announced they are considering charging Zimmerman ... and now [some of] the media are reminding us that the DOJ already did that, a month after the shooting, and found no evidence of racial bias or profiling. (Yes, the FBI is still part of the DOJ.)

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/07/1...l#.UeNK8KySi8B

Quote:
After interviewing nearly three dozen people in the George Zimmerman murder case, the FBI found no evidence that racial bias was a motivating factor in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, records released Thursday show.

...

Federal agents interviewed Zimmerman’s neighbors and co-workers, but none said Zimmerman had expressed racial animus at any time prior to the Feb. 26 shooting of Martin, a black teen, in a confrontation at a Sanford housing complex. As Sanford police investigated the circumstances of Martin’s death, the FBI opened a parallel probe to determine if Martin’s civil rights had been violated.

Several co-workers said they had never seen Zimmerman display any prejudice or racial bias.
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Old July 14, 2013, 10:28 PM   #74
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Whatever immunity from civil suites Zimmerman is able to secure, it would not apply to federal prosecution, to my understanding.

Defense attorney Mark O'Mara seemed to be almost daring anyone to file in FLA against Zimmerman. He seemed very confident that immunity could be secured. He may be in a position of some leverage with regard to possible prosecutorial misconduct.
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Old July 14, 2013, 10:43 PM   #75
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I feel sure the FL law will be revisited. I have never thought that a CHL holder had the right to pursue an individual who had not committed a crime that the CHL had seen.
I am pleased that Zimmerman was found not guilty, but I think there will be changes in the law that would preclude pursuing someone when no crime or serious crime had been seen.

This case is a lesson that shows us that even if one is found not guilty one may conclude that it was not worth the trouble and expense.

Guess we'll see.
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