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Old July 22, 2013, 03:29 PM   #1
csmsss
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Another "possible" SD shooting

How would you like to be involved in attempting to determine the facts and possible charges in this particular incident?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ody-phone.html

A Houston woman shot and killed a 58 year old man at a gas station after a confrontation turned deadly. After a series of escalating encounters, 58 year old Lewis Daniels was shot and killed by an as-yet unidentified woman at a BP gas station, apparently with a long arm she kept in her trunk. There are a variety of news articles currently online about this shooting, some claiming the man had an edged weapon, and many claiming he made unwanted sexual advances.

After the shooting, what did the woman do? Took some photos with her celly and hit the road. Harris County PD eventually tracked her down and are ostensibly taking her statement.

The possible legal issues in this case might just make the Zimmerman case look cut and dried. This one's going to be interesting. Both parties involved appear to be black, so presumably race is not going to be an issue.

You have to ask yourself just what on earth possessed her to take cell phone pictures of a man she just shot to death and then flee the scene?
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Old July 22, 2013, 03:31 PM   #2
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Here's the article from the local rag: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...php?cmpid=hpts

And another from USA Today: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...-stop/2574971/
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Old July 22, 2013, 03:35 PM   #3
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After seeing what GZ went through, a reasonable person, having just defended their lives with a gun, probably would try to avoid law enforcement.

The cell phone pix are beyond me.
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Old July 22, 2013, 04:00 PM   #4
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http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...php?cmpid=hpts
Quote:
Then the man walked toward her and pulled out a knife. Fearing for her safety, the woman grabbed a rifle from her car and shot him. He died at the scene.
No "alleged" "witness say" "report says" ?

Very unprofessional for a newspaper. The sad thing is most people just read a blurb and run with it, even an unprofessional trash blurb.

I would be curious what the surveillance camera picked up and if their was really a knife.
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Old July 22, 2013, 04:11 PM   #5
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No "alleged" "witness say" "report says" ?

Very unprofessional for a newspaper. The sad thing is most people just read a blurb and run with it, even an unprofessional trash blurb.

I would be curious what the surveillance camera picked up and if their was really a knife.
Note my characterization of the Chronicle above. It is not highly regarded for the quality or integrity of its reporting nor its copyediting.

It is, however, an outstanding reporter of Houston society events.
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Old July 22, 2013, 07:07 PM   #6
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It looks to me in the video that the woman is the aggressor. Without sound it is impossible to know for sure, but it appears that the woman pulls the gun out of the car and points it at the man's groin, possibly in a threatening response to sexual comments or advances. I could imagine a few witty things she might have said at this point.

Then the man swung at her (what man wouldn't when so threatened) thus escalating the situation.

It appears to me to be questionable whether the woman's life or personal safety was threatened, but it's very possible considering that the man seemed to have a friend also hanging around.

I am guessing that the shooting will be ruled justified considering the disparity of force, especially if Texas has a stand-your-ground law. Unless the woman's story doesn't add up or the third party produces some interesting testimony.

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Old July 22, 2013, 07:08 PM   #7
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Several posts have been deleted for rehashing race issues. We don't go there.
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Old July 22, 2013, 08:29 PM   #8
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Another "possible" SD shooting

This won't even make the news one state away here in OK. It advances no political agenda.
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Old July 22, 2013, 08:37 PM   #9
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I am not seeing any evidence of a threat on that video. If there was a threat, it must have been verbal because he didn't touch her, as far as I can determine.

I certainly didn't see a knife, but it looked like he was holding an umbrella. It looks very bad that she left the scene. This can't go well for her.
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Old July 22, 2013, 09:06 PM   #10
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I am not seeing any evidence of a threat on that video.
I'm seeing possible intimidation, though we can't hear the conversation.

However, I'm also seeing someone who could have just as easily gotten in her car and left the scene.
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Old July 22, 2013, 09:07 PM   #11
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I watched the video several times. It looked like she was showing him the gun and maybe it went off or something, judging from the way he jumped when the gun was pointing down. He freaked and slapped at her and she freaked and shot him. This is just a GUESS as to what may have happened from watching a low quality video with no sound. She did not appear to me to be particularly fearful until after he swung at her. As I said before, this is only MY GUESS. The "news coverage" was very weak. I would be interested to hear more about this case, but I do not expect I will since it was in South Houston. I am so glad I moved out of Houston 26years ago to a small town.
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Old July 22, 2013, 09:36 PM   #12
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Just an observation. When the guy comes out of the gas station, he is holding his left arm in front of his body (blocking the camera) in an unnatural position. Possibly holding a knife? One of the media reports speculated on a knife. It would also be helpful to see what has been edited from the video.
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Old July 22, 2013, 11:50 PM   #13
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Reminds me of a local event here. Retired cop got into an incident of road rage with a car of young men, the other window rolled down. He claimed he saw a gun and fired, killing at least one of the men. He then drove all the way back to Miami (probably an 8 hour drive) saying he was afraid they would follow him, and he was caught by police later.

Seems to me both would be better served waiting for the cops if they are legitimate self defense complaints. I know the intersection where the local event happened and the PD is a 5 minute walking distance.
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Old July 23, 2013, 12:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
After seeing what GZ went through, a reasonable person, having just defended their lives with a gun, probably would try to avoid law enforcement.

The cell phone pix are beyond me.
The article said she was wearing camo shorts. Right here just across the Texas line in LA camo shorts are worn as colors by local street gangs. Just speculation but it could explain the cell pix. Our local street thugs are well known for copying other gangs. There could be a gang in Houston with the same.
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Old July 23, 2013, 01:45 AM   #15
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Reminds me of a local event here.
Are you referring to the shooting of Jordan Davis?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...oud-music?lite

Quote:
A Florida gun collector has pleaded not guilty to a murder charge alleging that he opened fire on a car full of unarmed teenagers, killing one, in an altercation that police say stemmed from loud music.

Michael David Dunn, 45, acted "as any responsible firearms owner would have," his lawyer said of the Friday evening incident at a gas station outside a convenience store in Jacksonville, Fla.

Dunn and his girlfriend were in Jacksonville for his son's wedding when they pulled up in their car next to the teens. Police allege that while the girlfriend was in the store, Dunn told Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and his three friends to turn down their music.

"It was loud," Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said of the teens' music. "They admitted that. That's not a reason for someone to open fire."


After an exchange of words, Dunn began shooting with a handgun,
Alleged self defense shooting are going to get lots of scrutiny from now on out.
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Old July 23, 2013, 03:11 AM   #16
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Although that's a very sad event, that's not the one I'm referring to.
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Old July 23, 2013, 07:00 AM   #17
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Gas station event; west PA....

A event I recall from the late 1990s when I lived in PA was a off-duty female police officer who shot a unarmed male who she claimed attacked her as she pumped gas at a service station near Pittsburgh.
The female officer was cleared by her PD & the male subject faced a few criminal charges.
It may seem biased, but I honestly think a armed citizen or license holder would have faced more scrutiny than a sworn LE officer if they were attacked & had to fight off a violent subject.

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Old July 23, 2013, 09:43 PM   #18
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Very Odd

Can't tell what was exchanged verbally between the two, but i don't see anything that justified use of force, let alone lethal force. Possible that verbal exchanges left her fearing for her life, i suppose, but given the setting and public location, that's a difficult leap to make. Suppose she had jumped him and (for the sake of argument) beat him unconscious. justified from what you see?i didn't think so.

I wonder how much the MSM will talk about this incident?
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Old July 24, 2013, 11:02 AM   #19
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Here's the latest from the Houston Chronicle: http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...php?cmpid=hpts

The shooter in this case has given a press conference and stated that the deceased had pulled a knife on her and that she fired at the ground and the bullet ricocheted into the dead guy.

One of the emerging players in this, as you'll note from the article is a man named Quanell X. He is well known in southeast Texas for injecting himself into racially charged cases.
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Old July 24, 2013, 12:37 PM   #20
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The cell phone pix are beyond me.
After some of the lunatic behavior I saw among law enforcement in Arizona in post-self-defense cases I have to say that taking pics and at least uploading them to a private location if you shoot somebody has to be viewed as prudent.

Example:

One guy shot one of a group of three people who mob-attacked him on his own driveway as he returned from being out with his wife. He used a CCW piece that he had on him at the time.

Before the cops showed up he took off his holster with gun in it and put it on a fence, standing some distance from it for the cops to show up.

At trial prosecutors tried to claim that since he didn't have a holster, there was an argument, he went back into his house, retrieved a gun and shot somebody on coming back out.

At the conclusion of all the legal horror drama (multiple hung juries!) he went to the Tucson PD property room to get his gun and what did they give him back at the same time? HIS HOLSTER. Which would have stopped years of perjury by the prosecution.

Other perjury came from the assailants, who in the criminal trial claimed that the shooting happened in the middle of the street (to make it look like the guy with the gun came out at them) but in the civil trial claimed it happened on the defender's front lawn (so as to get a piece of his homeowner's insurance).

Had he taken pics or better yet video immediately after, none of that horsecrap would have happened and there would likely not have been even one trial.

http://ostti.com/Hickey%20Booklet.pdf

So...yeah, if I'm in a shooting, I am not going to trust law enforcement to adequately record the aftermath. I'm going to DIY it. I carry an Android smartphone that can live-stream upload to a server in Sweden (Bambuser application) and I can set that to private. Once uploaded my phone will leave no evidence that it happened. Any perjury by anybody, I'm going to nail them to the wall on it.
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Old July 24, 2013, 01:22 PM   #21
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smart, smartphones...

As posted before, I highly suggest buying or obtaining a smartphone or iPhone if you are a armed citizen.
You can document events or evidence at a scene, you can contact 911 or LE which is then time/date stamped, .
You can also take notes or record important details(report #s, license plate #s, LE officer badge #s, etc).

Bad weather(rain, fog, snow, sleet) can damage or obscure evidence. A video or digital image may help defend your statements/actions later.
Be aware too that some "bystanders" on-lookers may not be honest or open with any investigators or local media about the event(s). They may also snatch up any related items(weapons, magazines, spent cases, bags, drugs, tobacco products, etc).

It sounds hard to fathom but about 2 years ago, I saw 2 deputy US Marshals in plain-clothes arrest a guy on a street corner. The cops put the guy in handcuffs & were lifting him up to put him in a SUV when a street bum ran up & collected the subjects property, .

As posted on other forum topics, in the US criminal justice system is not whats true that matters, it's what you can prove.

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Old July 24, 2013, 01:31 PM   #22
csmsss
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After some of the lunatic behavior I saw among law enforcement in Arizona in post-self-defense cases I have to say that taking pics and at least uploading them to a private location if you shoot somebody has to be viewed as prudent.
True. But the combination of taking the cell pictures and subsequently fleeing the scene has to be viewed with trepidation if not complete skepticism.
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Old July 24, 2013, 02:25 PM   #23
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There's nothing wrong with leaving the scene, if you call the police first (or very shortly afterward) to report the incident, tell them where you are, and explain why you left.

"...I was afraid of the other people in the car my assailant got out of, so I'm going to [insert safe location here]."

The technical term for this is "retreating from a (potential) threat," and it may be a very smart thing to do.
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Old July 24, 2013, 02:44 PM   #24
csmsss
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Vanya, in this case the shooter fled the scene AFTER stopping to take photos of the deceased. That doesn't speak to the mindset of someone retreating from a threat.
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Old July 24, 2013, 03:22 PM   #25
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Vanya, in this case the shooter fled the scene AFTER stopping to take photos of the deceased. That doesn't speak to the mindset of someone retreating from a threat.
That may be true, but we weren't there, and we don't know what what was in her mind or what may have happened before she left. According to the article you linked in post #19, she went to her mother's house and then called the police. As others have pointed out -- taking pictures may not be a bad idea from the point of view of documenting the scene.

My comment was intended as a general one, in any case. My point was that there's nothing inherently suspicious about leaving the scene of such an incident. We have very little evidence of what happened, and no insight into her mental state. Speculation about either is useless, and if there is a point to this thread as a "Law and Civil Rights" topic, it revolves around the advisability of recording such a scene, and under what circumstances one would do well to leave.

Otherwise, there's very little to discuss -- this isn't a "current events" forum.
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