The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 16, 2013, 07:45 AM   #51
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
1. Situational Awareness (because we cannot allow a bad guy to get the drop on us)

2. Tactically Sound (because we need to deploy the life saving tactics as we prepare to fight off the threat)

3. Get R Done (much have the skills to put bullets on target as fast as possible and in a vast variety of positions)

4. Go Animal (Must be ready to become extremely violent without delay or hesitation)

5. Keep Your Head (must be able to return to normal once the threat is over)

My list based on the progression of a fight. I realize that 2 and 3 are not necessarily a mindset but more a skill set but they will give us the confidence to know we can get the job done which is mindset.
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 09:04 AM   #52
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
1. Situational Awareness (because we cannot allow a bad guy to get the drop on us)

2. Tactically Sound (because we need to deploy the life saving tactics as we prepare to fight off the threat)

3. Get R Done (much have the skills to put bullets on target as fast as possible and in a vast variety of positions)

4. Go Animal (Must be ready to become extremely violent without delay or hesitation)

5. Keep Your Head (must be able to return to normal once the threat is over)

My list based on the progression of a fight. I realize that 2 and 3 are not necessarily a mindset but more a skill set but they will give us the confidence to know we can get the job done which is mindset.

A perfect world.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 10:22 AM   #53
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
Quote:
A perfect world.
Perfect practice makes perfect. Perfect mindset makes perfect.

Isn't the goal to strive for perfection?
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 10:23 AM   #54
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,686
I'm deleting posts that just contain undocumented assumptions and snark. Let's keep this at a literate and factual level.

Second - I would disagree with some statements.

Posting that you would 'go animal' is not going to look good in court. Yes, we have evidence of similar statements being used against defendants.

Next, the statements about training at 'bad breath distance' make little sense. Training is useful for all levels and distance of the encounter.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 10:25 AM   #55
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Perfect practice makes perfect. Perfect mindset makes perfect.

Isn't the goal to strive for perfection?

The lessons we learn are written on the tombstones of others.

How do you think they thought of their training? I doubt they called it "perfection" or searched to seek such a fairy tale claim.

The goal is to strive for survival.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 10:32 AM   #56
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,933
There is no such thing as perfect practice, because humans are imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect mindset, because humans are imperfect.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Yes, we should be striving for perfection – but we should also recognize that perfection will always be beyond our reach. When we practice, we should first learn the best ways to do things. This means learning from others, not simply from our own ideas of how things "ought" to be.

There is nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel. However, when we do so, we should be sure that we are not trying to drive on trapezoidal wheels with offset axles.

Also, just in case my earlier post was unclear: of course you aim for the upper center chest when possible. That is where the good stuff is, such as the largest blood vessels in the human body, the heart, and other vital organs. The goal is to shut down the attacker as quickly as possible, and exsanguination is as good a way to do that as any other. However, it is incorrect to say that a shot or two to the chest "usually" ends in death. The facts are simply otherwise, as those who work the emergency room in any trauma center could tell you.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 10:36 AM   #57
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
There is no such thing as perfect practice, because humans are imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect mindset, because humans are imperfect.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Yes, we should be striving for perfection – but we should also recognize that perfection will always be beyond our reach. When we practice, we should first learn the best ways to do things. This means learning from others, not simply from our own ideas of how things "ought" to be.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.


I recommend that daddyo reads this book by Rory Miller.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 10:37 AM   #58
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,933
OldMarksman,

Thank you for posting the link to the Force Science Institute study. The experienced law enforcement officers who create those studies and do that research provide an invaluable resource for the LEO community. I just wish they did more on the ordinary armed citizen side of the equation. Can't have everything, I guess!

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 10:52 AM   #59
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
Quote:
The lessons we learn are written on the tombstones of others.

How do you think they thought of their training? I doubt they called it "perfection" or searched to seek such a fairy tale claim.

The goal is to strive for survival.
My guess is that you aren't a fan of the Glock slogan LOL.

I wonder if it really does any good to nitpick this much.

We strive for survival. The way I know how to survive is through the best training possible. So if I strive to be perfect in my response to the threat at hand, its saying I'm attempting to be perfect in my execution of that training. So my strive for perfection is one and the same with striving for survival. After all my training is done to give me a better chance at survival.
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 10:56 AM   #60
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
Quote:
Posting that you would 'go animal' is not going to look good in court. Yes, we have evidence of similar statements being used against defendants.
What would be the judicially acceptable adjective to describe the commonly taught mental conditioning to surviving a violent encounter?
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:01 AM   #61
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
We strive for survival. The way I know how to survive is through the best training possible. So if I strive to be perfect in my response to the threat at hand, its saying I'm attempting to be perfect in my execution of that training. So my strive for perfection is one and the same with striving for survival. After all my training is done to give me a better chance at survival.
Not going to further explain myself. I'm sure one day you'll get it though. Did you click on that link I provided? Really good book man, check it out.

Quote:
My guess is that you aren't a fan of the Glock slogan LOL.
Ha, it's just that. A slogan. I do love my Glock's though.

Quote:
What would be the judicially acceptable adjective to describe the commonly taught mental conditioning to surviving a violent encounter?
Yes, Frank is right.. You don't want to be saying stuff like that.

The intent is to save yourself and stop the threat. Keyword: Stop.

"Killing" and "Going animal" show's an entirely different motive.
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:07 AM   #62
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,686
Books by Pax, Ayoob, Gila Hayes and others - all describe the appropriate views of self-defense usage. Easy to find on Amazon.

So do courses by such folks. I recommend them rather than making up your own inflammatory rules.

If you truly get into it - use Google scholar to find law review articles on using lethal force in self-defense or the excellent book - Killing in Self-defense by Leverick. It is a touch dense for the average gun world prose but truly enlightening.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:10 AM   #63
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
Quote:
There is no such thing as perfect practice, because humans are imperfect. There is no such thing as perfect mindset, because humans are imperfect.

Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Yes, we should be striving for perfection – but we should also recognize that perfection will always be beyond our reach. When we practice, we should first learn the best ways to do things. This means learning from others, not simply from our own ideas of how things "ought" to be.
I consider perfect practice/mindset/tactics to be those that I believe give me the best chance at surviving a violent encounter. Always subject to change of course which then makes them not perfect. Still at the time they are perfect. Nothing I know of that is better.
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:11 AM   #64
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,703
Quote:
Originally Posted by Constantine
...Yes, Frank is right.. You don't want to be saying stuff like that...
Actually, Glenn said it here; but I agree. We can talk about a swift and decisive response or a swift and tumultuous response.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:12 AM   #65
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,933
Quote:
What would be the judicially acceptable adjective to describe the commonly taught mental conditioning to surviving a violent encounter?
That is an excellent, and very thoughtful, question.

I am a fan of: "If you have to fight, fight like a cornered cat." That is my catchphrase. Some people think this just means "Fight really hard." That is not it, not at all. What it means is to fight with a goal in mind. When a cat is cornered, she's not interested in fighting with whatever has threatened her – but she will do whatever it takes to get to safety. Reaching down to get your hands on her is like sticking your hand into a blender. Bad idea!

A cornered cat will harm you if she absolutely must. But her goal is not to hurt you, and it isn't to not hurt you. Her goal is simply to get to safety.

Whether any of this is court-defensible, I don't know. Have not tried it yet. But I can articulate how this phrase fits very neatly into the legal realities of self-defense. Any similar phrase that you choose should be able to do the same thing.

Also, I second Constantine's recommendation. Rory Miller's work is excellent.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:16 AM   #66
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
For someone who is trying to train others, what adjective can be used to describe the act of doing what is necessary to survive? So that they may understand how we must drop our civilized nature and adopt a temporary nasty one?

I can still explain that the use of certain adjectives is not recommended.
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:17 AM   #67
Constantine
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Actually, Glenn said it here; but I agree. We can talk about a swift and decisive response or a swift and tumultuous response.
Yes, I can see it now.

On the stand.

First PO responding to call : "He then stated he 'went animal' and 'killed' the attacker."

VS.

First PO responding to call : "He then stated, he exercised the means necessary to stop the attack and was willing to sign a complaint."
__________________
Sáncte Míchael Archángele, defénde nos in proélio, cóntra nequítiam et insídias diáboli ésto præsídium. Ímperet ílli Déus, súpplices deprecámur: tuque, prínceps milítiæ cæléstis, Sátanam aliósque spíritus malígnos, qui ad perditiónem animárum pervagántur in múndo, divína virtúte, in inférnum detrúde. Ámen
Constantine is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:26 AM   #68
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
Quote:
That is an excellent, and very thoughtful, question.

I am a fan of: "If you have to fight, fight like a cornered cat." That is my catchphrase. Some people think this just means "Fight really hard." That is not it, not at all. What it means is to fight with a goal in mind. When a cat is cornered, she's not interested in fighting with whatever has threatened her – but she will do whatever it takes to get to safety. Reaching down to get your hands on her is like sticking your hand into a blender. Bad idea!

A cornered cat will harm you if she absolutely must. But her goal is not to hurt you, and it isn't to not hurt you. Her goal is simply to get to safety.

Whether any of this is court-defensible, I don't know. Have not tried it yet. But I can articulate how this phrase fits very neatly into the legal realities of self-defense. Any similar phrase that you choose should be able to do the same thing.

Also, I second Constantine's recommendation. Rory Miller's work is excellent.

pax
Funny I currently use a mother lion LOL.
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:28 AM   #69
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,686
Just for example, variants of:

Always cheat and Have plan to kill everyone from training classes have been brought up in cases.

Your defense attorney has to present a coherent story of why you acted the way you did according to the jury research literature. The DA will present his or her coherent version. If theirs started with 'he was going animal' - that will stick in the jury's mind.

Pax's animal - fighting like a cornered cat gives a metaphor of defense as compared to being off the rails.

My favorite Glock example - went to a new range to try it out. The SOs there check your gun before you shoot to see if it is ok. High class outfit. The guy ahead of me had the back plate of his Glock replaced with one with the Punisher skull logo. Now in an ambiguous shoot, when that gun is shown to the jury - oh, dear - and you shot the teenager (there are several cases I know other than the one you are thinking about) because you felt you had to be an animal, wanted to cheat and had a plan to kill?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:37 AM   #70
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
It absolutely horrible that we live in a Country that using an adjective to describe the mental preparation needed to properly defend yourself from a violent attacker, could get you in trouble.

I still have to believe that in the vast majority of self defense cases, the justification would be overwhelming. After all we are pulling our firearm to stop the imminent threat of death or grave bodily injury. Seems that this is overkill.
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:40 AM   #71
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
What do I do now that I have already said it?
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 11:53 AM   #72
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,933
Well, it never hurts to post your current thoughts – as opposed to your previous ones.

pax

"A man should never be ashamed to own he has been in the wrong, which is but saying, in other words, that he is wiser today than he was yesterday." ~ Alexander Pope
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 12:00 PM   #73
daddyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2013
Posts: 112
Then just stop talking!
daddyo is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 01:52 PM   #74
btmj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Location: Near St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 766
Quote:
...What would be the judicially acceptable adjective ...
How about this... "Once you have decided that you have no alternative but to defend yourself, and the time for action has arrived, you must act in a forceful and decisive manner. Be vigorous, and without hesitation."

That is how an animal would act. When I stumble upon a deer while hiking, it stands completely still, until it has decided it must move... and then IT MOVES. Small mammals like rabbits and chipmunks are even more impressive in their ability to go from frozen to explosive speed in the blink of an eye.

But what I said sounds so much more civilized than "go animal". Appearances count, even when they shouldn't.

Last edited by btmj; August 16, 2013 at 02:04 PM.
btmj is offline  
Old August 16, 2013, 02:37 PM   #75
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,950
Quote:
Posted by daddyo: It absolutely horrible that we live in a Country that using an adjective to describe the mental preparation needed to properly defend yourself from a violent attacker, could get you in trouble.
On the other hand, saying something that can be interpreted as having the mindset to harm someone for the sake of doing so can get you in trouble anywhere. Why shouldn't one expect it to?

Quote:
I still have to believe that in the vast majority of self defense cases, the justification would be overwhelming. After all we are pulling our firearm to stop the imminent threat of death or grave bodily injury. Seems that this is overkill.
That's what the person who pulled the gun says happened. But there was no sound stage, no video taken from multiple angles, showing every possibly relevant aspect from start to finish.

There is evidence that deadly force has been used, and the user claims to have been acting in self defense. There is some forensic evidence proving who shot whom.. There may or may not be eyewitness or earwitness testimony from persons other than the shooter, all of it suspect to at least some extent and some or all of it possibly unfavorable to the self-proclaimed defender. Using only what can be pieced together after the fact, which will necessarily be incomplete and which will likely be unclear and which may be contradictory, it will be necessary for others to decide whether or not the person who claims to have been defending himself...
  • Was in any way at fault in starting the confrontation, and if not,
  • was in fact faced with imminent danger of death or serious, crippling bodily harm, and if so,
  • had any means to avoid such harm other than deadly force, and if not,
  • used no more force than had been absolutely necessary.

That virtual white hat that the "defender" sees himself wearing is not apparent to anyone else in the real world.

What he has said, put in e-mail, posted, put up in his yard, stuck to his bumper, and/or worn on his t-shirt can go a long way to hurt his credibility when he needs it most.

Last edited by OldMarksman; August 16, 2013 at 02:43 PM.
OldMarksman is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13955 seconds with 7 queries