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Old July 12, 2013, 03:41 AM   #51
Pond, James Pond
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It seems the nature of the T&T forum to morph mundane, everyday situations, or scenarios that are more than likely completely banal into the sinister and potentially, if not overtly, hazardous.

People see a post here and, quite naturally, the brain switches into how best use my gun to defend myself in this scenario.

However, I feel that it would serve everyone best when, on the face of it, the situation is not an open threat to remember that fact first and foremost.

In the OP situation, as has been described, the only aspect that points to this being a credible threat is by association to it being posted in T&T, not the details of the situation itself.

By all means allow the gun to play a passive, background role in your thinking (eg, have it nearby at home if you've seen such a "suspicious" car earlier) but let normal behaviour rule the active part.

Don't feel good someone parking across the road? (perfectly understandable, BTW.)
Call the police, although they may well as what it is exactly that the occupants are doing wrong. Otherwise, floodlights seem to work. Passive, but effective.

You can even pick-up a nature-watcher's N-V monocular and watch from a darkened room, if needed, to assure yourself that they are not observing houses.
If it is an amourous couple, on the hand, try to have the self-discipline to put the monocular away...

Seriously, though-
Just because it is a thread in the T&T subforum of TFL gun forums doesn't mean that a gun-related response is the best advice. Let's look at the proposed situation, for what it is, first and then go from there...
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Old July 12, 2013, 07:20 AM   #52
Garycw
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Strange car outside

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pond, James Pond View Post
It seems

People see a post here and, quite naturally, the brain switches into how best use my gun to defend myself in this scenario.

However, I feel that it would serve everyone best when, on the face of it, the situation is not an open threat to remember that fact first and foremost.

If it is an amourous couple, on the hand, try to have the self-discipline to put the monocular away...

...
Guns and/or confrontation should be the very last resort. Whether it be observation from a distance. When in close contact with a potential bad situation, body language, tone of voice, and your dialogue goes a long way to diffuse problems. This may be some advice George Zimmerman should have adhered too.
I had a training course on passive and physical restraints. Passive restraints was how to speak, act, and calm the situation.
As far as a unknown car parked in front or near my house I would only observe to see if any thing going that would warrant further action. Nothing more.
If the amorous couple is observed, by all means...Put Down The Monocular !!
Get the high power Binoculars or Camecorder )
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Old July 12, 2013, 09:33 AM   #53
Pond, James Pond
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Put Down The Monocular !!
Get the high power Binoculars or Camecorder )

I considered posting that, but chickened out!!

(Don't worry, even if they didn't write everyone thought it...)
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Old July 12, 2013, 09:52 AM   #54
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The “strange car” reminds me of an incident that happened around here a few years ago.

A guy was living on a rural mountain road 1-20 acre lots. A “strange” car pulled up was looking around and acting "strange" so the home owner goes out on his porch with a AR15 and sits on his rocking chair and glares at the stranger.
The stranger drives off. Shortly after SWAT shows up. The home owner is arrested and charged with felony menacing.

Turns out the strange car was a door to door census taker. He never said he had the gun pointed at him but just the visible display of the gun was enough for felony charges on the home owner.
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Old July 12, 2013, 10:05 AM   #55
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I think this thread has been a fruitful discussion. Some people view this as a non-issue where others "open carry" around the property to intimidate the unknown stranger. I think its good to discuss how to handle strangers in the neighborhood.

My opinion goes against approaching the stranger or to demonstrate any type of force such as flashing a pistol or open carrying, but raising the level of awareness and letting them know you are there by turning on lights or stepping outside to sweep the porch. I dont think you can ignore a car parked outside or someone walking around who doesnt seem like they belong there. I think calling the police to investigate the strange vehicle is not called for. If they enter your property then maybe it might be called for like a man who is obviously homeless or doesnt seem to have any recognizable intentions. Of course, most of the time, it will be innocent, but then again what if its not?
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Old July 12, 2013, 11:07 AM   #56
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A guy was living on a rural mountain road 1-20 acre lots. A “strange” car pulled up was looking around and acting "strange" so the home owner goes out on his porch with a AR15 and sits on his rocking chair and glares at the stranger.
The stranger drives off. Shortly after SWAT shows up. The home owner is arrested and charged with felony menacing.

Turns out the strange car was a door to door census taker. He never said he had the gun pointed at him but just the visible display of the gun was enough for felony charges on the home owner.
Definately, if it's a felony to sit on your front porch with an AR in your locale, don't do it.

Could be that the sight of my van is enough to keep the door to door chaff from visiting.







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Old July 12, 2013, 11:19 AM   #57
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When I was in college, my buddy and I were headed to a party and couldn't find the right address. This was 1994 or so, so we didn't have GPS or cell phone. We parked on the street across from where we were pretty sure the party was and decided to wait to see if people started showing up. We were on the street - public property, and this was about 10:00 pm.

Well, suddenly a strange little red dot appears on my chest and pans over to my buddy. We look over to my right and there's a genius with an automatic of some sort and an attached laser aiming at us. The windows were down, so I stayed calm and said there was no need for that, we're just looking for so-and-so. He grunted and went back inside.

In the console of my friend's car was a Glock 17. This situation could have gone horribly wrong in so many ways, just because some bozo decided to confront the strange car outside.
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Old July 12, 2013, 11:38 AM   #58
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Turns out the strange car was a door to door census taker. He never said he had the gun pointed at him but just the visible display of the gun was enough for felony charges on the home owner.
Simple possession of a legally owned firearm on one's own property cannot possibly be construed as felony menacing, no matter how much it might cause someone else to go weak in the knees. Menacing requires an overt threatening act, and sitting on your porch holding a rifle (no matter how menacing your countenance might be) doesn't qualify.
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Old July 12, 2013, 11:47 AM   #59
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Menacing requires an overt threatening act, and sitting on your porch holding a rifle (no matter how menacing your countenance might be) doesn't qualify.

Sure it can and apparently it did. It was probably reduced or pled down but the guy on the porch got a visit from SWAT, spent a little time in the clink and probably had his rifle confiscated, at least temporarily. That's a lot of heartache.
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Old July 12, 2013, 11:49 AM   #60
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Sure it can and apparently it did. It was probably reduced or pled down but the guy on the porch got a visit from SWAT, spent a little time in the clink and probably had his rifle confiscated, at least temporarily. That's a lot of heartache.
It's also unconstitutional if the fellow holding the weapon didn't threaten anyone with it.
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Old July 12, 2013, 11:51 AM   #61
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I'd like to read some actual details about that sitting on the front porch case.


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Old July 12, 2013, 12:12 PM   #62
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It's also unconstitutional if the fellow holding the weapon didn't threaten anyone with it.

Colorado law:

Menacing (18-3-206)

A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:
(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or
(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.
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Old July 12, 2013, 12:32 PM   #63
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Quote:
Colorado law:

Menacing (18-3-206)

A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:
(a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or
(b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon.
So what part of this did the homeowner violate? If he merely sat on his porch holding a rifle, exactly what part of this law did he violate?
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Old July 12, 2013, 01:08 PM   #64
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"war" story; off-topic incident...

The "hey, I'll smoke-check anybody you comes near my spread!" mindset won't go to far with the cops or a grand jury, .
It's a shad off the subject, but I recall a seriously ill man in rural GA, who lacked medical benefits. He walked out & shot his area's USPS mail carrier!
He heard federal BoP prisoners get full dental & medical while incarcerated.
The wounded USPS mail man wasn't to thrilled with that plan.
This took place about 4/5 years ago.
Strange people "lurking" around your home or property isn't always a minor deal either.
In 2010, a well known Hollywood stunt performer & stunt trainer I know had a "unwelcome" visitor to his large ranch in Lake County, FL.
My friend(a combat veteran of Korea) & a few of his stunt school cadre/students discovered a hapless PI "hiding" in the bushes on his property.
The local sheriff was called out & the PI sheepishly told the group how he was there working a worker's comp fraud case.

True story!
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Old July 12, 2013, 01:39 PM   #65
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Awareness is a good thing, but a lot of that depends on where you live.

In a high density urban environ, you might not know who's car is parked in front of your house. In a suburban environ, you might or might not know.

I used to live, literally, down a half-mile of bad road and the road ran out in my front yard. If you came down there, you either knew me personally, or you were "by-God" lost.
PawPaw has the way of it.
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Old July 12, 2013, 01:43 PM   #66
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If its legal in your area I would walk outside and let them know I am armed, I have the description of the vehicle and people inside
Isn't there a case in Florida going on right now about this...

All this seems a bit extreme. Do you not have neighbors nearby who have friends etc.?

Quote:
Some of these opinions should be embarrassing, frankly.

This is a DIFFERENT car, EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, over the course of YEARS.

Anyone can seriously tell me that they've never stopped their car on a unknown street for a few minutes? You've never had someone turn on their lights in their house when you've stopped on a street? What do you do? Most of us drive away because we don't want to bother someone and or have them come out and ask us what's up when NOTHING is up, we just had to stop for a minute for any of 10,000 reasons.

Go outside and take pictures? What will they do? They'll leave! How suspicious! No... they'll leave because there's some guy taking pictures of them for no damn reason! They'll be weirded out!

Go out side and wander around with a gun?

Go TELL THEM you have a gun? You've got to be kidding! If I pulled my car over and you came out and told me you had a gun, I'd be calling the cops ON YOU! I would absolutely consider that a threat.
I agree. Location of course is the key and context.
For kicks and giggles, I'd advise that the next time this occurs, walk out in a clown costume. Bring two whipped cream pies. When the time is right, you'll know what to do.
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Old July 12, 2013, 02:03 PM   #67
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I know a lot of guys do the broom sweep of the porch. They see a stranger and start sweeping just letting the stranger know they are there.
OK, I've done that. I did that last week, messing around with a water sprinkler in the front. Of course mostly I was turning on the sprinklers because I thought they were salespeople or JW about make a run trhough the neighborhood and I didn't want to be bothered.
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Old July 12, 2013, 02:37 PM   #68
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So what part of this did the homeowner violate? If he merely sat on his porch holding a rifle, exactly what part of this law did he violate?

You'd have to ask the DA, who prosecuted him.
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Old July 12, 2013, 02:37 PM   #69
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I'd like to read some actual details about that sitting on the front porch case.
This has some good details of the case and trail-
http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/archi.../t-164807.html

I could only find one article spun a few times by the same new company-
http://www.coloradodaily.com/ci_12960708
http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_12960708

My version was quite vague I heard the story 4yrs ago. I guess their was also a couple of words exchanged and possible "trespassing".

And it was a SKS not a AR15
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Old July 12, 2013, 03:16 PM   #70
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deepcreek, from the articles you linked, it sounds like the only ones doing any felony menacing were the SWAT team.
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Old July 12, 2013, 03:17 PM   #71
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You'd have to ask the DA, who prosecuted him.
And lost, apparently. And though I'm not familiar with the circumstances of this case, and cannot state with certainty that this is what happened, grudge prosecutions are far from rare.
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Old July 12, 2013, 04:21 PM   #72
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deepcreek, from the articles you linked, it sounds like the only ones doing any felony menacing were the SWAT team.
I am just glad the guy accused had the resources to fight the false charges.

The census worker claimed he was "menaced" then went on with his work day until it was covenant to call police ? Sounds like he wasn't to frightened to me.

" As I came around the loop and headed back towards the defendants house I saw him standing there holding a “big black gun”. The defendant was obviously angry and was yelling something but my windows were closed and I could not hear him. I drove past, stopped once or twice, then continued on and took a few more map spot readings. After thinking about the situation, I found a local establishment and went inside to borrow a phone (cell phone service was not available). I called 911 "
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Old July 12, 2013, 04:22 PM   #73
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Yeah, I noticed that too.
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Old July 12, 2013, 05:48 PM   #74
johnelmore
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Displaying a firearm is essentially escalating the situation to a much higher level which will lead to trouble for all involved. I think we should not escalate a situation if we dont have to. It all depends on how the stranger is acting at the time however.

If the stranger is lurking at the edge of the property on the sidewalk or parked in the street then no need to display anything. If the stranger is charging the front door on the other hand its time to have it out.
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Old July 12, 2013, 07:02 PM   #75
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If the stranger is lurking at the edge of the property on the sidewalk or parked in the street then no need to display anything. If the stranger is charging the front door on the other hand its time to have it out.
Here in Arizona, we "have it out" all the time. Again, not all areas share the same area of freedom of carry as we do here in AZ. Grandmothers, college kids and old geezers walk around openly carrying. I literally see at least a couple other people carrying open, every time I grocery shop, go to Costco, Wally's etc. We just don't have the "Oh My God" factor here like they do some places. Neighbors on five sides of me rake leaves, mow lawns, retrieve mail while open carrying.

That probably seems hard to grasp for some less fortunate residents of other states.


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