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Old July 10, 2013, 01:34 PM   #26
Strafer Gott
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Which beggars the question " If you aren't mentally prepared to do the deed, why carry?"
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Old July 10, 2013, 01:43 PM   #27
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Being "mentally prepared" means a lot more than "I'm man enough to pull the trigger."

It means evaluating and understanding the laws, potential pitfalls, various scenarios, how to avoid and deescalate and understanding that the aftermath is going to be awful.
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Old July 10, 2013, 01:51 PM   #28
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Every scenario is different. No two are alike. At all.

There is always different suspects, cover, victims, intentions..etc. We can sit here and type this up all day about what X would do. The Y would say you can't do that. Then Z would add an "what if" scenario to it. It never ends.

Just train. Make a clear judgment. Or at least try. From what I recall, you simply jump into autopilot.


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Old July 10, 2013, 02:25 PM   #29
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Re: Local grocery store got held up at gun point..

Luckily no one was injured, and they still haven't caught the person. My dad said he saw the surveillance video of the robbery. The guy came in with a pistol pointed in the air wearing a hoodie and a mask, went behind the register and ordered the girl on the ground, took the money and ran out.

Now I assume the fact that he wasn't actually pointing the gun at anyone would've come into play, at least in my mind. That would've told me he most likely wasn't going to injure anyone, and even though it's hard to say in the heat of the moment, I most likely would've just been a good witness, especially in NY state.
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Old July 10, 2013, 02:44 PM   #30
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One thing I think I would find important in such a situation is where exactly the robber has his/her weapon pointed. If it's at the storekeep's waist, that's an entirely different kettle of fish than if it's pointed at the storekeep's head. A shot to the lower torso, while undoubtedly grievously painful, is less likely to kill than a shot to the brain. I think that matters - as do many other phenomena which will arise as the event unfolds.
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Old July 10, 2013, 03:08 PM   #31
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One thing I think I would find important in such a situation is where exactly the robber has his/her weapon pointed. If it's at the storekeep's waist, that's an entirely different kettle of fish than if it's pointed at the storekeep's head. A shot to the lower torso, while undoubtedly grievously painful, is less likely to kill than a shot to the brain. I think that matters - as do many other phenomena which will arise as the event unfolds.

I don't get it. As if he can't raise the gun at any given time?

That's not a good point.
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Old July 10, 2013, 03:43 PM   #32
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I don't get it. As if he can't raise the gun at any given time?

That's not a good point.
If the robber raised the gun such that it was then pointed at someone's head, I would likely conclude that he was planning to fire and react accordingly.
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Old July 10, 2013, 04:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
The basic questions in a store robbery - are you willing to shoot someone over just property? Are you willing to shoot an innocent by mistake - seen that. Are you willing to die and have your family suffer the consequences for someone?
It's not shooting someone over property, period. The decision is whether the risks of shooting the bad guy outweigh the risks of not shooting the bad guy.

If you're the only two people in the store, and he's taking you to the back room or in his car, I think just about everyone will agree the risks of compliance are higher than the risks of fighting back. If there are 30 people crowded around the bad guy, and he's pretty calm, most people will agree that the risks of a shootout are higher than the risk of compliance.

The rest of the scenarios are somewhere between a judgment call and a crap shoot.
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Old July 10, 2013, 07:20 PM   #34
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While I would not shoot over money or property, neither would I assume that a shot to the torso will be survivable.

One thing you have to accept in the decision to carry is that someone will second guess any decision you make. I once did successful CPR on a woman who was blue and had no detectable pulse at either the wrist or the carotid artery, only to have her husband complain later that, because her chest was sore afterward, I must have done the chest compressions too hard. If you shoot before the armed robber shoots, you are going to be second guessed; if you shoot after the armed robber shoots, you are going to be second guessed, too, by different people. Choose your poison.

Can it be legitimately argued that a person who is committing an armed robbery is not creating a legitimate fear of death or serious harm to his victim, though? I am not saying that it is always advisable, but I have a hard time thinking it would be found not justifiable.
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Old July 10, 2013, 08:16 PM   #35
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Lots of posts are assuming the guy with the gun is the bad guy.


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Old July 10, 2013, 10:29 PM   #36
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Local grocery store got held up at gun point..

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtLumpy View Post
Lots of posts are assuming the guy with the gun is the bad guy.


Sgt Lumpy
If he's the one doing the robbing, yeah. The shoe fits.

You won't see a good guy heading towards a register yelling and pointing his gun at everyone he sees.
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Old July 10, 2013, 11:14 PM   #37
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That could be a monsterously incorrect assumption. I learned that in the training scenario I described above.


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Old July 11, 2013, 05:41 AM   #38
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Local grocery store got held up at gun point..

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtLumpy View Post
That could be a monsterously incorrect assumption. I learned that in the training scenario I described above.


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Overlooked. You are correct.
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Old July 11, 2013, 08:11 AM   #39
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We did one where we were in a store. A woman runs in and a guy tackles her. One of the students 'shoots' him. Guess what he was an undercover cop chasing her from some crime outside. OOPS.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but a significant number of undercover cops have been shot by uniformed officers misreading the scene. I think (but would have to look up) that something like 1 in 6 undercovers have been held at gun point by uniformed officers. This means in the fog of war, bad things can happen.

An armed robbery certainly means you fear for your life and might be legally covered. That doesn't mean that shooting is a good idea. As said, that decision is contextual on many dimensions.

That's why training is important - it is neat to say you will act accordingly - but how's your accuracy in a melee? In matches and training, in tight quarters under stress - people miss and/or shoot the good guy.

I've seen national champs - shoot the bystander.
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:35 AM   #40
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Reminds of hearing from a few different sources that in a street fights bystanders(with out knowledge of the full incident) usually think the guy on top, the guy with the weapon or the guy winning is the attacker.
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:37 AM   #41
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I know a case where the good guy intervened and was winning in the struggle with the bad guy. The law arrived and killed the good guy - despite the witnesses saying he was the good guy. Oops.
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:53 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmss
If the robber raised the gun such that it was then pointed at someone's head, I would likely conclude that he was planning to fire and react accordingly.
Is there some special robber training that teaches only headshots somewhere?

Does the phrase "center of mass" have any meaning to you?
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Old July 11, 2013, 10:10 AM   #43
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I was in a bank once, off duty, doing my own bank stuff. Bank teller suddenly yells "I've been robbed!". Another off duty officer and myself tackled and held at gunpoint the guy who robbed her and was walking out the door.

Turns out the "robber" was an employee from bank corporate loss prevention. The exercise was he'd hand the teller a very recognizable card indicating "you've been robbed" and she was supposed to do the correct thing (hit the silent alarm, take note of the description etc). Tellers all knew it could happen. Corporate announced it etc. The teller knew she wasn't being really robbed. She was just so flustered that she got "hit" by the corporate test, she had to panic and yell.

Could have been a really bad day for the corporate guy if he'd gone for his wallet.

While I covered security for the other officer making the arrest, I could have easily shot another bank employee coming out of the bank to tell me "It's ok". Probably the only reason I didn't is that I recognized the 2nd employee as someone who I'd seen working there for a long time. She didn't stop coming towards me even though I was gun drawn, aiming at her.

The young girl teller got quite an education that day, as did corporate loss prevention and the other bank employee. They stopped doing that scenario.

There were a lot of incorrect assumptions and mistakes made that day. And luckily for everyone, a lot of correct guesses by the two officers who didn't shoot.


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Old July 11, 2013, 10:36 AM   #44
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Quote:
Is there some special robber training that teaches only headshots somewhere?

Does the phrase "center of mass" have any meaning to you?
Don't patronize me. Pointing a firearm at someone else's head is ESPECIALLY provocative and a headshot is far more likely to produce instantaneous (or nearly so) death than a shot to the torso.

I'd suggest you save your unwarranted sarcasm and use it elsewhere.
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Old July 11, 2013, 01:34 PM   #45
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Re: Local grocery store got held up at gun point..

Thanks everyone for your input. I guess what it boils down to is that there are too many factors that can come into play that would determine what the right decision would be, and I would've had to just go with my instinct.

On a different note I really enjoy everyone's input and opinions, and SGT LUMPY you've got some really cool stories. I bet we could talk for hours in person! Lol.
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Old July 11, 2013, 02:44 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmss
Don't patronize me. Pointing a firearm at someone else's head is ESPECIALLY provocative and a headshot is far more likely to produce instantaneous (or nearly so) death than a shot to the torso.
Sorry, pointing a firearm at someone ANYWHERE is "especially provocative".

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmss
If the robber raised the gun such that it was then pointed at someone's head, I would likely conclude that he was planning to fire and react accordingly.
Have you ever seen someone shot in the abdomen or chest? You don't believe those wounds are worth worrying about?
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Old July 11, 2013, 02:58 PM   #47
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Sorry, pointing a firearm at someone ANYWHERE is "especially provocative".

Have you ever seen someone shot in the abdomen or chest? You don't believe those wounds are worth worrying about?
You just seem not to want to understand the point. Yes, I've seen plenty of photographs of GSW's to virtually every part of the human body, and yes, strikes to the vital organs of the torso (ie heart, lungs, liver, kidney, etc.) are quite dangerous and frequently deadly. However, given prompt medical attention, these wounds are more survivable than penetrating injuries to the brain. If you can't understand that, I simply do not know what to tell you.
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Old July 11, 2013, 08:55 PM   #48
45_auto
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Apparently I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmss
One thing I think I would find important in such a situation is where exactly the robber has his/her weapon pointed. If it's at the storekeep's waist, that's an entirely different kettle of fish than if it's pointed at the storekeep's head.
Maybe a couple of examples from you would help enlighten me.

1) Let's say you're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your holster. What do you do?

2) Same situation as #1, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?

3) You're in the store, the bad guy has his gun pointed at the storekeep's waist, your gun is in your hand pointed at the bad guy. What do you do?

4) Same situation as #3, except the bad guy's gun is pointed at the storekeep's head. What do you do differently?

I personally see no difference between 1 & 2, or between 3 & 4. My reaction will be the same for 1 & 2, and the same for 3 & 4. I'm not going to base my reaction on something (bad guy's specific point of aim) that the bad guy has the option to change literally in the blink of an eye.

The storekeep is being threatened with deadly force in every case. If the bad guy decides to shoot, then the difference in the time required for him to take the headshot, or else to shift his point of aim from the torso to the head then take the headshot, is measured in hundredths of a second. Far quicker than you'll have time to do anything about it.

Last edited by 45_auto; July 11, 2013 at 09:03 PM.
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Old July 11, 2013, 09:32 PM   #49
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I've already told my wife (b/c I don't believe in pop quizzes) that if I am carrying and we walk in on a robbery (or it walks in on us), I'm not going to pull. It's just money.
That said, if the robbery goes violent, the scenario has changed.

The happy medium in my mind would be to try to pull, conceal and watch. Circumstances would dictate if that's an option.
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Old July 11, 2013, 11:03 PM   #50
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Honestly this is a stage that every person new to carry goes thru, granted some a greater degree then others.* I would suggest reading and training to help give you the tools to make the right decision if something like this happens. Some believe they would act others would not. It isn't black & white and it is something for you to decide.

My .02 just take care of you and yours, any intervention with unknown persons and variables can spiral out of control rapidly due to your escalation of the situation. As Lumpy and others have said you don't know enough to act. Or even if you do what if the gun is a criminal and just plans to rob the place and upon seeing you draw your gun panics and a gunfight in your direction ensues injuring a loved one and a stranger. Its gonna be hard to prove that you were not @ fault for that. Or that the few bucks he took was worth the injuries.

Be a good witness. Protect you and your family.
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