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Old July 2, 2013, 10:12 PM   #1
KyJim
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The real difference between those who carry .45 acp and 9mm

First, I have to admit preferring .45 acp but I also carry 9mm. Colion Noir pretty much sums up the differences between those who carry the two calibers in these two videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po4nZTO3ES4 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=zHkqOWzDAZI.

For .45 carriers it's about size and stopping power. For 9mm carriers, it's about shot placement and being obsessive about running out of ammo. He also mentions something about penile implant for those who used to carry .45s but now carry 9mm.

Good videos. They deserve a look-see.
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Old July 3, 2013, 05:32 PM   #2
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I carry either. Make that just about "any". I went for about 10-15 years without owning a 9mm, then decided that there were just too many interesting guns, and I didn't want to miss out on owning and shooting them. I am a reasonably good shot, and can probably place a shot, or several, where I want them to go, on demand. That might make the 9mm "more viable" than it might be for defensive purposes, but, anymore, I do not feel undergunned with 9mm. I have a Walther P99, Walther PPS, Walther P4, Beretta 92FS, CZ75, S&W 3914, and several Browning/FN Hi Powers. They all get carried in the concealed carry role, along with 1911's and some revolvers. I enjoy them all, and they all make it to the range throughout the year. I would not read TOO much into what gun another might carry, or what it infers. The presence of any of my guns in MY hands or on my hip just means I am not going to go easy. I am 60 and have been shooting pistols since I was 14.
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Old July 3, 2013, 06:13 PM   #3
Bill DeShivs
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A bad shot with a 9mm would still be a bad shot with a .45.
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Old July 3, 2013, 06:31 PM   #4
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You run out of ammo only if you miss, so the 9mm guys must doubt their marksmanship?
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Old July 3, 2013, 06:51 PM   #5
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9x19mm is the floor for me. I tend to carry a 9 most of the time because the pistol fits in my pocket and is virtually undetectable regardless of dress. Interestingly, it holds the same number of rounds that my lightweight officers model 1911, which does not fit in my pocket and must be worn on the waist. If I were to be really expecting trouble, I would pack one of the full size 1911s in a pancake holster. The full size 1911s contain one more round than my pocket 9.

So, in my case, Noir has only a vaguely interesting theory that does not hold water.

It is always tough for most people to guess why others do what they do.

Quote:
A bad shot with a 9mm would still be a bad shot with a .45.
Bless you, Bill.
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Old July 3, 2013, 08:04 PM   #6
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You run out of ammo only if you miss, so the 9mm guys must doubt their marksmanship?
I carry a 9mm. At most I carry one spare mag. As for the marksmanship comment, .
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Old July 3, 2013, 08:22 PM   #7
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....and a bad shot who doesn't doubt his marksmanship is still a bad shot : ) =
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Old July 3, 2013, 08:32 PM   #8
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Do you really think with modern defensive ammo there is a dimes difference between .45, .40 or 9mm as long as shot placement is good. I don't. I have shot a boat load of deer with .243, .270 and .300 win mag and could never a tell a bit of difference with any of three. That's as close as I can come to using a gun for defense which I never have had to do. A good shot is a good shot, a bad shot is bad.
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Old July 3, 2013, 09:03 PM   #9
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bad shots this bad shots that. a nine will save you one reload process maybe. I dont doubt the capabilities of eiter one/ Consider that a 125 gr .357 hp doing 1400 is a rather respected load universally reguardless of who says different. Now a 124 gr nine hp say gold dot +p may be doing around 1200. Im not saying its no different because it is, but all of this over 200 fps and 1 grain?
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Old July 3, 2013, 10:20 PM   #10
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I've always subscribed to, carry what your comfortable with. For me, that's either a 9mm or .40S&W.
I know if I put the shot where it needs to be, I will never run out of ammo. Never concerned myself with carrying a spare mag.
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Old July 3, 2013, 10:29 PM   #11
EIGHTYDUECE
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There is no difference between the two IMHO. With either caliber, you must hit a vital or it will only be a flesh wound. I own both and I can easily hit a 2" at 25yrds supported and 4" unsupported. I still choose my Beretta 92FS 9mm do to firepower.

Here is a good read on an officer that put 17 rnds of .45acp from his Glock 21 into the perp and the kill shot was to the head. The perp was not high nor deranged, just a bankrobber cornered. That officer now carries a Glock 17 9mm for more firepower. He almost ran out of .45 in his Glock.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_13/12..._with__45.html

If you think you will be making those precise killshots you do at the range shooting paper, I doubt you have been in a firefight before and you will be in for a rude awakening.

All this talk of not missing is BS. This line of thinking ignores one of the main rules of conflict "underestimating the enemy". Some of those bad guys DO know how to shoot.
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Old July 3, 2013, 10:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Do you really think with modern defensive ammo there is a dimes difference between .45, .40 or 9mm as long as shot placement is good.
Not just modern ammo. This debate has been going on for 100 years. I've never seen a single test, research project or any other form of data that shows a clear winner. Even going back to WW-1. The US Army concluded in 1946 testing that there was no difference, and the greater ammo capacity and barrier penetration of the 9mm made it a better choice for the military.

The Army wanted to change to 9mm in 1946, but with no major war, and millions of 1911's in inventory they waited until 1985 when they were finally worn out. Every time you look at comparable ammo from any of the common rounds the results are too close to declare any winners. If a debate cannot be settled in 100+ years of trying lets call it a tie and move on.

I own and like many different handgun chamberings from 380 to 44 magnum. I own 45's because I like some of the guns they are chambered in, but I'd just as soon pick up one of the 9mm's as any of the others if necessary.
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Old July 4, 2013, 08:04 AM   #13
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"I've never seen a single test, research project or any other form of data that shows a clear winner. Even going back to WW-1."[jmr40]

During WW1, Alvin York stopped 7 attacking German soldiers with 7 shots. He received the MOH.

And WW2:

"Another comrade, withdrawing, offered assistance. Sgt. Baker refused, insisting that he be left alone and be given a soldier's pistol with its remaining 8 rounds of ammunition. When last seen alive, Sgt. Baker was propped against a tree, pistol in hand, calmly facing the foe. Later Sgt. Baker's body was found in the same position, gun empty, with 8 Japanese lying dead before him. His deeds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army." [from MOH citation, Sgt Baker, Thomas A.]

15 shots, 15 stops. The 45ACP 1911 pistol defended the nation against determined highly trained enemy soldiers, and I have read that the USMC has recently brought back the 45ACP 1911 pistol to once again protect the nation.

Three good reasons why I prefer 45ACP.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:10 AM   #14
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Lest we turn this thread into a caliber war, we should bear in mind that Mr. Noir's videos were produced to make light of the caliber wars.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:16 AM   #15
TunnelRat
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Quote:
During WW1, Alvin York stopped 7 attacking German soldiers with 7 shots. He received the MOH.

And WW2:

"Another comrade, withdrawing, offered assistance. Sgt. Baker refused, insisting that he be left alone and be given a soldier's pistol with its remaining 8 rounds of ammunition. When last seen alive, Sgt. Baker was propped against a tree, pistol in hand, calmly facing the foe. Later Sgt. Baker's body was found in the same position, gun empty, with 8 Japanese lying dead before him. His deeds were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Army." [from MOH citation, Sgt Baker, Thomas A.]
Prove to me that the same thing couldn't have been done with a 9mm.
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Old July 4, 2013, 09:35 AM   #16
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15 shots, 15 stops. The 45ACP 1911 pistol defended the nation against determined highly trained enemy soldiers, and I have read that the USMC has recently brought back the 45ACP 1911 pistol to once again protect the nation.

Three good reasons why I prefer 45ACP.
I guess if you are Sgts York or Baker, then this sounds great. It really is the shooter over the caliber. We can come up with all sorts of examples of where the .45 didn't perform to the 100% standard you have indicated and those would be excellent reasons to NOT carry the .45.

Or maybe I missed your reasoning. You carry the .45 out of nostalgia for York and Baker?

York + Baker = 2 reasons, not 3, and neither are indicative of being a test substantiating the .45 is better. You accounting of York seems a bit off from his own accounting...
http://books.google.com/books?id=yMa...%20on.&f=false
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Old July 4, 2013, 10:11 AM   #17
Seaman
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"Prove to me that the same thing couldn't have been done with a 9mm." [TunnelRat]

All I can say is I haven't come across it in my research and there have been a lot of armies using 9mm pistols. I will keep searching.

"Or maybe I missed your reasoning. You carry the .45 out of nostalgia for York and Baker? "[Double Naught Spy]

More because they did it, and were recognized for their achievement. Years ago I used to practice the York Drill, set up 6, 7, or 8 targets about 20-25 yards apart and rush them, trying to put an accurate shot in each one under 6.5 seconds.

"York + Baker = 2 reasons, not 3, "[Double Naught Spy]

Please check the post. 3 reasons. York, Baker, and USMC (recent choice of 45ACP pistol).

Thank you for the reference, I have read (and been told) 6, 7 or 8 stops by York, I decided to go half-way.

In no way do I recommend you carry a 45ACP, that's my preference. This morning I carried a 45ACP SW99 IWB and a 32ACP PPK on the ankle. Coulda had a 9mm, often do.

45ACP is my preferred carry, that's all... I shoot it way better that a Beretta 92, don't know why, but that's why I sold the Beretta 92.

Thank you for your comments.

Best to you.
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Old July 4, 2013, 10:25 AM   #18
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Almost equal...

As a teen, I was wondering how & why the US armed forces wanted to convert from the rugged 1911a1 .45acp to the M9 Beretta 9mmNATO but when you think about it; a 1911a1 has 8 rounds of 230gr FMJ. A standard M9 9mmNATO has 16 rounds of 115-124gr FMJ, so if you fire one .45acp round you can now fire 2 9mmNATO rounds of approx the same weight.

Many tactics trainers & police academies advocate the "double tap" method(sometimes called "hammers" by military operators).
Either a .45acp or 9x19mm can protect you. To choose a proper defense load & to use marksmanship is what's important.

CF
PS; I read over a few posts & wanted to add that gun writer/EP agent: Leroy Thompson wrote about a soldier in Africa(South Africa-Rhodesia) who used a CZ-75 type 9x19mm. The combat soldier reportedly shot & killed 14 enemy troops with all 14 9mm FMJ rounds in the sidearm. The Browning P35 9x19mm has been in use with military units & SWAT for decades too, .

Last edited by ClydeFrog; July 4, 2013 at 10:34 AM.
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:07 PM   #19
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Is it me or is this thing turning into the U-tube channel. I vote U tube is banned. Pictures only.

Instead of discussion things we put up links to videos that prove one and for all, that "it tastes great". Sheese.

And thats about as stupid a comparisons between a 45 and 9mm let alone any of the caliber.

Bad shooting is bad shooting and 45 has no more stopping power than a 9mm. No pistol caliber has stopping power and that goes up to 44 mag.

As stated, a badly placed shot is a baldy paced shot in any caliber.

As for the now famous double tap, do you plan on shooting twice and then wait 5 minutes to see what happens? Another one that has gotten far too much press.

Double tap my foot, you shoot until the threat quits. If its one shot thats fine, if its 5 shots then its 5 shots.
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Please check the post. 3 reasons. York, Baker, and USMC (recent choice of 45ACP pistol).
Oh yes, the claim that the Marines adopted the 45 acp 1911 anew. This isn't exactly correct, is it? A small component of the Marines, MARSOC did, but MARSOC isn't the whole of the Marines, just a subset. It isn't like the whole of the Corps has dropped the M9 from service or has plans to do so.

Kind of reminds me after the North Hollywood Bank Robbery incident how it was reported that LAPD was adopting the 1911 (Kimbers, actually). Sure enough, they did, but only SWAT. So it wasn't like the whole of LAPD adopted the 1911 in 45 acp. A subset group simply added an additional tool to their arsenal.

I am a big 1911 fan. In fact, it is what I carry, but the religious fervor held by many to grasp at whatever straws to claim the 1911 is the be all to end all gun is often a stretch. There was rejoicing in the early naughts when MEUSOC was allowed to cobble together some 1911s for use from mostly spare parts and be used in Iraq.

As noted by the Marines, the M9 in 9mm is still the standard sidearm of the Marines. http://www.marines.com/operating-for...etta-m9-pistol
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:35 PM   #21
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You run out of ammo only if you miss, so the 9mm guys must doubt their marksmanship?
I would say that sensibly they know that hitting targets at the range is not the same as when someone is shooting back at them. So a few extra rounds could come in handy.
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Old July 4, 2013, 01:57 PM   #22
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Split the difference, carry a 40 the compromise between capacity and caliber.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 94045.jpg (147.3 KB, 47 views)
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Old July 4, 2013, 02:25 PM   #23
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I have both in carry guns. with the 9mm I only have one more round than the 45 so it's no big deal, I only carry the 9 because I have a decent holster for it and not the 45. I prefer 9mm because it's cheaper and higher ammo cap for training/range days. 45 for bear defense and stopping power.
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Old July 4, 2013, 02:26 PM   #24
Seaman
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"Oh yes, the claim that the Marines adopted the 45 acp 1911 anew. This isn't exactly correct, is it? A small component of the Marines, MARSOC did, but MARSOC isn't the whole of the Marines, just a subset." [Double Naught Spy]

What I wrote was "...and I have read that the USMC has recently brought back the 45ACP 1911 pistol to once again protect the nation."

Thank you for the correction, did not mean to mislead, honestly thought the USMC had recently selected 1911s.

More correctly, MARSOC or the United States Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command recently selected 1911s, and this is the 3rd good reason I prefer 45ACP.

Hope I got it right this time.

Thank you again.
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Old July 4, 2013, 02:27 PM   #25
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I tend to believe that there is not much difference in performance between 9mm & 45 ACP with modern bullets. Most of the data I have seen shows no real advantage for either. I think the advantage swings to the 45 with the use of FMJ.
I feel comfortable carrying either but if forced to use FMJ ammo the 45 would be my choice hands down. JMO
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