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Old July 8, 2013, 12:53 AM   #1
dakota.potts
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A reminder to DOUBLE and TRIPLE check a "safe" gun!

Took my CZ out for some dry firing. I keep it in the safe loaded 16+1 so I took it out and cleared it. Muzzle down into the safe so the bullet's backstop would be the bottom of the safe and the dresser it's resting on down into the floor if it did fire. Only time I miss having a safety is for unloading or maybe dry firing.

Anyways, didn't visually see the bullet leave the chamber. I almost removed it from its safe direction, although I always check it again and again.

This time, however, as I made the decision to check it again before pulling the muzzle out of the safe, I saw the loaded chamber indicator was still popped up and sure enough a round popped out.

I never would have fired it without checking it again after I pulled it out of the safe, or so I'd like to think, but I'd hate to shoot out a wall of my house with what was a "safe" gun. Safety should not be a habit. Verify visually and multiple times! Thankfully I've made it a habit to stop what I'm doing and be very aware of the process of checking for a clear chamber.
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Old July 8, 2013, 06:33 AM   #2
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Different methods, all of which work.

One is to pull slide back and visually inspect breach, and another is to lock slide back and insert pinky in breach to feel for the absence of the round.

But assuming racking slide unloads the pistol is not on the list.

And doing something wrong multiple times isn't much better. (I'll rack slide twice to be sure...)

The chamber check is what counts. And, recognizing that Rule One applies again as soon as you set it down. The only exception being the personal verification of the unloaded status.

Which has to be done correctly, every time you pick it up.

Even if you just checked it 10 minutes earlier. The safety habit to develop is to do a chamber check, with care, every time you pick up a gun.

The habit to avoid is making any assumptions of the gun's status.

As I understand it, this is the meaning of Rule One.
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Old July 8, 2013, 07:54 AM   #3
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I always rack the slide so that the bullet falls into my hand, but just like you I check, double check, and for good measure check again.
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Old July 8, 2013, 08:25 AM   #4
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Not to harp on this, but there is no reason to check multiple times, like some kind of OCD thing.

It is only necessary to verify once, each time you pick it up. Do it carefully, and then you know what the status is.

You may be checking for loaded status, before holstering. You may be checking for unloaded status, before cleaning. But you don't know what it is if you don't check.

The key is understanding that, once that gun is no longer in you hand (or holster), the status becomes unknown again. If you set it down, the status can change. However unlikely, it isn't in your control so you simply don't know.

Let's say you triple-check a gun, then lay it down with the loaded magazine next to it. A few seconds later, you pick it up and rack the slide to verify status, then pull the trigger with the muzzle pointed at the floor before returning the gun to the safe. Which was your practice (habit).

Bang! Hole in coffee table.

I read about this incident. Seems the son-in-law was being helpful and reinserted the magazine when the dad was busy explaining another gun to another relative.

The gun isn't going to magically chamber a round while you are holding it, following an empty chamber verification. The ND occurs when you assume it is still unloaded some time later and fail to check.

Rule One is all about assumptions.
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Old July 8, 2013, 10:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
dmazur posted
Not to harp on this, but there is no reason to check multiple times, like some kind of OCD thing.
I completely disagree. I handle firearms constantly, all day long. I have specific habits regarding checking the chamber of a fiream every time I pick one up. I don't think about it, I just do it. When I see a chamber is empty, I don't think to myself, "The chamber's empty.", I just automatically continue what I'm doing with the knowledge that the chamber is empty.

There is no safe direction in my apartment. If any firearm I own is discharged in my apartment, it stands a very good chance of going through a wall, floor, ceiling, or window.

So when I go to dry fire in my apartment, I want to make EXTRA sure my firearm is unloaded. A casual chamber check is not enough for me; I check it visually and physically a few times each before I start dry firing. This way I'm breaking my normal habits and now I consciously know the fiream is completely unloaded and there's no chance I did something stupid like rack a round into the empty chamber while checking it.

Call it OCD, call it whatever you want, but there's probably a reason I've never had a negligent discharge.
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Old July 8, 2013, 11:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
I never would have fired it without checking it again after I pulled it out of the safe, or so I'd like to think, but I'd hate to shoot out a wall of my house with what was a "safe" gun

Never, ever dry fire without a solid backstop! I don't care how many times you've checked the gun ... It is still NOT safe to put your finger on the trigger unless you have chosen a specific spot for the bullet to land, which includes knowing that if a bullet comes out of the gun it will stop safely and not kill the 20 year old mom sleeping in her own bed across the street next to her 9 month old baby.

Which is what happened to my best friend's high school sweetheart.

More here: http://www.corneredcat.com/article/p...y-fire-safety/

And here: http://www.corneredcat.com/article/f...r-three-rules/

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Old July 8, 2013, 11:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
there's probably a reason I've never had a negligent discharge.
I'm with you. I have handled firearms for over 50 years and owned them for well over 40 without an ND. I have heard people say that anyone who owns a firearm either has had an ND or will have one. It doesn't have to be so. Drop the mag, double check the mag well, lock back the slide and check with eyes, then finger, then eyes again. Call me OCD, call me over-cautious, call me a chicken, call me anything you want - I have never made an unintended hole in anything with a firearm, and I like it that way.
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Old July 8, 2013, 11:10 AM   #8
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Also: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-282550.html

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Old July 8, 2013, 01:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
The key is understanding that, once that gun is no longer in you hand (or holster), the status becomes unknown again. If you set it down, the status can change. However unlikely, it isn't in your control so you simply don't know.
This is the way I've always handled it. The gun is Schrödinger's cat if it's left my control in any way, for any length of time.

A few years ago, a friend and I bought several guns at an estate sale. As the guns were loaded onto his truck, we each opened the action and did a chamber check. Every gun on that truck had been checked twice.

We got back and began to offload the guns. The second one was a rifle, and when I pulled the bolt, a live round ejected. The answer? The Quantum Bullet Fairy. That little jerk goes around causing all sorts of malfeasance.

I've heard "I thought it was unloaded" far too many times to trust that phrase.
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Old July 8, 2013, 01:35 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
I have specific habits regarding checking the chamber of a fiream every time I pick one up.
If you read my reply, that is exactly what I'm recommending, and what I do.

My "no need to check multiple times" comment was in reference to checking multiple times each time you pick it up, just to make sure.

Do it once, do it right, then proceed.
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Old July 8, 2013, 01:46 PM   #11
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Yes, and I was pointing out that in certain circumstances I check multiple times; specifically if I'm going to pull the trigger. For me, I feel a need to check multiple times before I pull the trigger on a firearm, especially if it was previously loaded and I just cleared it.

But that's just the way I do it.
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Old July 8, 2013, 02:30 PM   #12
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My method is pretty strange and OCD. I clear the gun, then point the barrel at a light on the ceiling (no one lives above me), make sure I can see light down the barrel, and then make sure I get an actual look at the breech face and firing pin. Every time I pick a gun up. Then I'll probably do that twice more before I dry fire.

It's somewhat twitchy, but I'll take inconvenience over ever negligently discharging a firearm.

Good thread, OP. Safety reminders are never a bad thing.
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Old July 8, 2013, 02:39 PM   #13
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Just to clear a couple points up.

I never pull the trigger into the backstop of the safe. I just point it down when I clear it since that's when negligent discharges are likely to happen.

I do point my gun at a wall but always at a downwards angle. It is a wall on the side of the house where nobody sleeps. I always angle it down and often never point above my wall's electrical outlet.

Are there any ideas for a safer backstop?

EDIT: Think I will try the phonebooks/textbooks in a cardboard box
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Old July 8, 2013, 02:44 PM   #14
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While very few households have a "clearing pipe", I understand a 5 gal pail of sand is a fairly good energy dissipator...
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Old July 8, 2013, 02:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
A casual chamber check...
That is the definition of the problem. The word "casual".

There should be no such thing as a casual chamber check, or any way of justifying such a thing, with the idea being "I'll check it better before I pull the trigger."

If it is important, it is important enough to do it right. Then you only have to do it once.

IMO, there is no room for "casual" involving gun safety.

(You might ask yourself, sometime, what the purpose of a "casual" chamber check is... )
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Old July 8, 2013, 03:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
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There should be no such thing as a casual chamber check, or any way of justifying such a thing, with the idea being "I'll check it better before I pull the trigger."
OK, now we're just getting into semantics. By "casual" I mean a check like I always do, all day long; one quick visual inspection of the chamber. I do it so often that it's not really a conscious thought. But every time I've checked a firearm like this that turned out to be loaded, you can bet I've noticed and caught it.

But like I've said several times already, when I go to pull the trigger, whether for disassembly or dry firing, I like to check a few extra times to be double and triple sure. What in the world is the harm in that?
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Old July 8, 2013, 06:44 PM   #17
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I suppose it is semantics...and I am only trying to clarify, not criticize.

Quote:
...I do it so often that it's not really a conscious thought.
Not knowing you personally, this statement bothers me.

As I said earlier, there should be nothing casual about gun safety. Do you really want to do anything with a gun without conscious thought?

Chamber checks performed multiple times a day are perhaps rational, if you have not been carrying the entire period uninterrupted. Each time you holster, a check for loaded status would be prudent.

But if you draw just to check something you already checked that's been under your control the entire time...that's compulsive.

And, compulsive behavior may not harm anyone. But it is generally unnecessary. And, as you pointed out, it results in a kind of complacency about that behavior, which makes you feel you have to do a "real check" before cleaning or dry firing.

All of which is purely my opinion. And probably not worth two cents...

ETA -

I remember another example of "gun safety by habit", which I believe occurred at a gun show.

Bolt-action rifle was involved, and the seller opened the action as is customary before handing it across to potential buyer. Potential buyer closed action, pointed rifle sideways and pulled trigger. Bang. I believe someone was injured as a result.

Apparently the rifle had a faulty extractor and opening the action didn't extract the round in the chamber. Probably the typical Mauser-type action with the chamber buried at least 3/4" up inside the receiver.

So this is why I state "Do it once, do it right." Take the time. Think about what you are doing. Don't ever let repetition or past performance lull you into a posture of complacency.

Now I am aware that the Four Rules provide redundant protection, and he violated Rule Two...but I don't believe this redundant protection should be interpreted as encouraging sloppy behavior in any of the Rules.
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Old July 8, 2013, 08:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
dmazur posted
Quote:
...I do it so often that it's not really a conscious thought.

Not knowing you personally, this statement bothers me.
It appears you're doing your best to pick apart every comment I make and take what I'm saying out of context. Why? Are you still upset that I disagreed with your criticism of people doing multiple chamber checks? Do you honestly not understand what I'm trying to say?

Safety is automatic for me; I check a gun every time I pick it up and every time someone hands it to me. When I say it's not really a conscious thought, I mean it's so natural I don't need to think about doing it; I just do it. But I still notice and remember what I'm doing, and if a round happens to be in the chamber I definitely take notice immediately.

I've been driving in heavy city and highway traffic for most of my life. I've only ever been in one accident and that was when someone ran a traffic sign and sideswiped me. I'm a very safe, defensive driver, but I've been doing it so long and I've become so good at it that I don't need to spend much conscious thought doing it. It's become natural. That doesn't mean I don't pay attention when I drive and it doesn't mean I'm an unsafe driver. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

My gun handling is the same way. If you think that means I'm unsafe with firearms, then there's not much I can say to change your mind. But please stop taking evething I say out of context.
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Old July 8, 2013, 08:15 PM   #19
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If you are relying on a chamber check -- careful or casual -- you are unsafe.


Read this!

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/f...r-three-rules/

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Old July 8, 2013, 08:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
pax posted
If you are relying on a chamber check -- careful or casual -- you are unsafe.


Read this!

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/f...r-three-rules/
Good point, though I hope no one assumed either of us was referring to ONLY using chamber checks to ensure safety; it's engrained in me to always follow ALL safety rules at all times, regardless.

Apparently I've managed to convey the idea that I'm unsafe in handling firearms, when nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe it's less of an issue of me being taken out of context, and more an issue of me doing a poor job of getting my point across...
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Old July 8, 2013, 09:05 PM   #21
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Theo,

Not trying to bust your balls here, but I want to be very, very clear. If you are checking the gun and then dry firing without a safe direction, you are not following the safety rules all the time. You and Dakota both made it plain that you dry fire without having a safe backstop. That means that both of you have developed a physical habit of not following the four rules. Specifically, every time either of you dry fire without a safe backstop, you violate rules two, three, and four.

You put your finger on the trigger when you have not chosen a target. What is a target? A target is the safest place for a bullet to land in your environment. You have not chosen such a spot, even if you have taped a piece of paper to the wall. That's rule two.

You allow the muzzle to point at things you are not willing to destroy. That would be rule three.

And, of course, there is rule four: safe backstop. In Dakota's case, he points the gun at a wall that he knows damn well will not stop a bullet. In your case, you dry fire inside an apartment surrounded by other people, and you have not made the effort to create a safe backstop inside that apartment.

Checking the gun's status and then proceeding to violate rules two, three, and four, is not "following ALL the safety rules all the time." It is breaking ALL the rules, every time you do it. When you do that, you put your entire faith in your personal ability to be absolutely perfect, and gamble other people's lives on the supposition that you will never, ever, ever make a mistake when you check to see that the gun is unloaded. There are four rules for a reason. That reason is: humans make mistakes. The rules are designed to interlock and overlap, so that nobody gets killed when somebody makes a mistake.

I know both of you are good people, and would never intentionally endanger anyone. Yet that is exactly what both of you are doing. Quibbling about how carefully you check the gun, does not change the reality that both of you are regularly, deliberately breaking the other three rules. You just differ in how carefully you do it.

In my house, I do have a sand bucket. It is disguised as an ordinary, somewhat large, houseplant. The houseplant is set inside a very large decorative basket that hides a 5 gallon bucket of sand. That is where I load and unload my gun when I need to handle it. You can set up similar things with a box full of newspapers or phone books. You can set up a book case full of books, and dry fire at the long and of the bookcase. Most handgun bullets will penetrate only a few inches in paper materials. You can invest in a purpose made product, such as the Safe Direction Academy Pad. There are options, no matter where you live.

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Old July 8, 2013, 09:22 PM   #22
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pax,
For the purpose of discussion, do you consider the bottom of a wall (where the crown molding is) facing outside to be a safe backstop? It's fired down at roughly a 30 degree angle and would immediately impact the ground outside. This still breaks the rule of not covering anything you don't want to destroy (the crown molding and the breaking the wall I was referring to) and I will acknowledge that.

Regardless, we have a cardboard box we fire our arrows into. I'll fill it with some old textbooks, magazines, phonebooks etc. before use next time. I'm simply curious academically

ETA: It is a one story building and on the other side of the wall is the yard
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Old July 8, 2013, 09:31 PM   #23
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Sorry for misunderstanding.

I certainly didn't mean to imply you were unsafe, or pick apart your comments.

I tend to be a very literal person, sometimes to the dismay of others I work with.

And my point, which I failed to make, was that a careful check for unloaded status is all that is necessary. Multiple checks may make a person feel good, but imply you can't trust your own actions. So, does doing something you don't trust several times make it trustworthy?

Slow down, do it right. Use a flashlight if it's dark. Use your pinkie if you don't have a flashlight. It isn't rocket science, but it has to be done correctly.

My concern was solely based on the impression of a casual approach to something which should not be casual in nature. If you aren't doing that, then my concerns are unfounded. Carry on...

The unloaded status check is the only exception to Rule One. By Cooper's own statement (Cooper's Commentaries, vol. 6 no. 2) -

RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.


Many advocates of the Four Rules like to pretend he didn't say this, as it makes the "Always" so much easier to teach. But, without the exception, there isn't a logical transition to cleaning, etc.

I've actually had someone chide me for pointing a disassembled barrel at myself while cleaning. IMO, this is the Four Rules gone mad.

Cooper's Four Rules are simply the opposite approach from the old NRA approach. The NRA used to teach "keep all guns unloaded until ready to shoot", which was fine for range shooting. Shooters learned guns were, generally, unloaded.

Cooper ran into trouble with a hot range environment. He flipped it around and taught, essentially, "all guns are assumed to be loaded, unless you are cleaning them". Under Cooper, shooters learned guns were, generally, loaded.

Almost everyone agrees the Four Rules are safer. But there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about transitioning to unloaded status and what that now permits.
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Old July 8, 2013, 09:33 PM   #24
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Quote:
pax posted
If you are checking the gun and then dry firing without a safe direction, you are not following the safety rules all the time. You and Dakota both made it plain that you dry fire without having a safe backstop. That means that both of you have developed a physical habit of not following the four rules. Specifically, every time either of you dry fire without a safe backstop, you violate rules two, three, and four.
You're right. Here I am talking about how safe I am, and yet I admitted in this thread to breaking safety rules.

I hate living in an apartment. At my old house I had a much better dry-fire area with a safe backstop. Now all I have is a stack of books which, while they will technically stop a 9mm bullet, doesn't actually count as a safe backstop. Before dry-firing, I clear the firearm, put all ammo and mags in a separate room, and check the chamber a few extra times before beginning practice.

I guess I'm being compulsive because I know I'm breaking safety rules by dry-firing in my apartment. And maybe that's why I hate dry-firing so much since I moved here. And I guess it took an Internet forum to convince me to stop doing something I already knew was unsafe according to the safety rules. I'll admit that dry-firing in an apartment is not a safe practice. Yet another reason that I need to hurry up and get that home loan approved....

Dmazur, I concede your point about being compulsive. I still think you took a few things I said out of context, but you were 100% right when you talked about following ALL safety rules, something I was obviously not doing when I was dry-firing in my apartment.

EDIT:

Quote:
dmazur posted
Sorry for misunderstanding.
No need; while you may have misunderstood a few things I said, you and Pax helped me figure out why I feel a need to be compulsive sometimes. I can promise you that dry-firing is out until I move into a house.
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Old July 8, 2013, 10:09 PM   #25
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Dakota,

I would accept that as a safe backstop. It is a little safer if you choose the base of the corner where wall and floor come together, and safer still if you reinforce it in some way (Such as by putting something solid in front of it).

Theo,

I would also accept a big stack of books as a safe backstop. From your earlier description, it sounded as if you were just using an ordinary interior wall, without somehow reinforcing it.

These days, there's almost no reason to dry fire a functional gun anyway. For less than a $20 bill, you can pick up a Barrel Blocker from Train.safe.us or a Training Barrel from Blade Tech. Either of those products will disable your firearm, rendering it safe for dry fire.

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