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Old July 7, 2013, 11:56 AM   #26
hogdogs
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First of all, just because you own a home in a HOA controlled subdivision doesn't give you a right to "stop and confront" folks that are on the "Common Ground" or "Public right of Way" areas...

And neighborhood watch is called that for a reason... It is not "Neighborhood Stop and Interrogate"...

In this case Zimmerman, fully an adult, planned to confront a minor child to ask what he was doing in a subdivision of many families, of which Zimmerman didn't likely know everyone and should have known there were black families who may have kids...

Just because he was man size, don't make him less of a minor...

As for the Aggressor/defender roles as we see it...
An adult man gets out of his car with intentions of stopping and interrogating a minor child... Any minor has a reasonable fear immediately if they were taught well by their parents...

Since this was not on Zimmerman's own yard and it appears Martin began on public right of way sidewalk... It appears to me that Zimmerman would have been the aggressor had he gotten to Martin and told him to stop to talk...

Where we have to take the word of Zimmerman, or not, to take the initial Aggressor role and reverse it is whether Martin seen him coming and hid in the bushes and jumped him...

If he did this, than it is likely the jury would see Zimmerman as the defender since contact hadn't yet been made and neither knew the intent of the other...

Does this uneducated redneck opinion make any sense???

Brent
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Old July 7, 2013, 11:59 AM   #27
maestro pistolero
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I would like to include part 1 of this link, not as a drive by, but in this interest of continuity as it relates to my previous post, where I already linked part 2:


http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...-like-for-him/
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:06 PM   #28
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I don't think an accidental discharge is in the cards. Zimmerman clearly states that he shot Martin.

He did not say the classic - the gun just went off. Surprise!

BTW - I like Brent's analysis.
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:19 PM   #29
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As for the "character" of both I have mixed emotions but emotions make for a lousy lawyer or juror...

Zimmerman did have aspirations to be in law enforcement at least once...
Does this automatically make him a cop wannabe? Not necessarily, I once considered it as a career but found the uniform (right when vest wear became mandatory in my town/county) to be too hot for the pay and the danger outweighed the benefits...

Martin was obviously showing typical "thug life" tendencies according to his own social media postings... But did he have reasons to fear a contact with cops or neighborhood watch??? We will never know but I do assure you that you do not need to be a black youth to question authority or even thumb your nose at it...

For me, i was very interested in one set of classes i took in school... these were the civics type classes... I liked learning what my rights were and what they afforded me...

I was taught by my folks that law enforcement and officers were not the same sort my parents grew up knowing of...

In my younger days, they were beginning to take on the paramilitary look and tactics...

They were now lying to citizens much more in the name of investigation...

I avoided contact with cops as best I could including changing course on bike or afoot before reaching the squad car that just pulled into a parking lot to await my approach to question what I was doing at that time in that place... NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS if i am doing nothing wrong...

And I had less respect for neighborhood watch groups... I was no criminal so I didn't feel compelled to entertain their time wasting efforts...

brent
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:21 PM   #30
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WFTV.com ME report.....

The ABC-TV station, www.wftv.com has posted the entire ME(medical examiners) report of Trevon Martin. It's 21 pages long.

The local TV stations; WESH, Fox35, Central Florida News 13, WKMG, and WFTV are doing full gavel to gavel coverage of the legal case. It's interesting to watch.
I spoke briefly to Fox News's Alex Ferrar. He was eating lunch at a local Wendy's. Ferrar is on the syndicated TV series; Judge Alex.
I asked him if Massad Ayoob would be involved in the trial.
Alex Ferrar, who was a sworn LE in Florida, said he was unaware of Ayoob & didn't know if he'd be in the court case.

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Old July 7, 2013, 12:22 PM   #31
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Just because he was man size, don't make him less of a minor...
And, just because he is a minor, does not negate the fact that he is "man sized" or, the fact that there could have been a "disparity of force".
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:22 PM   #32
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Isn't this a major-flares-going-off-holy-oh-chips as to why you / "we" really need to be sure we really-really want to pull that trigger?

Wow, writing a check for $$$,000+ for a defense and potentially $M's for a civil action and having your life screwed up tends to make me rethink my personal rules of engagement for many situations.
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:31 PM   #33
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If Zimmerman is found not guilty of this as a justified self defense shooting then he is free from threat of civil suit IIRC...

Brent
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:40 PM   #34
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It seems to me the point of using the "wanna-be cop phrase instead of 'aspiring police officer' or something like it, is to disparage such an aspiration. Every time I see that it gives me pause.

Is it an ignoble aspiration until it is actually attained? And if it's not noble, then isn't the attainment of it to be disparaged as well? I think not.
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:41 PM   #35
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The media shows pictures of Martin when he was a lot younger, why not show pictures of him the way he was around the time of the shooting ? It seems to me that the media is doing all it can to portray him as a very young innocent boy. The way the media shows this case Zimmerman doesn't stand a chance of being not guilty or acquitted, does he ? I don't know if he is guilty or not because I am not on the jury and I don't know all the facts. But the way the news plays it out he is already guilty. How can he get a fair trial with all the media coverage making him out to be a wannabe cop etc., and Martin as an innocent child. The man is being tried by one sided media coverage.
It also seems to me that the judge and others in power want a guilty verdict and are doing all they can to get one. Then this will turn into another matter of why the law abiding citizen should not be allowed to carry a gun. Another Sandy Hook but on a smaller scale. A guilty verdict would be another point for the anti gun groups.

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Old July 7, 2013, 12:44 PM   #36
maestro pistolero
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There is exactly zero evidence in the record that Zimmerman did anything like this:

Hogdogs:
Quote:
And neighborhood watch is called that for a reason... It is not "Neighborhood Stop and Interrogate"...
As I understand it, there is absolutely no law against peacefully approaching anyone in public for any reason to ask a question. Nevertheless there is no evidence that Zimmerman ever attempted to make even verbal contact with Martin. None.

Neither is there any evidence that, on his previous neighborhood watch calls to police, he ever attempted to make the verbal contact with any of those individuals.

Last edited by maestro pistolero; July 11, 2013 at 02:07 AM.
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:45 PM   #37
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Outcast, Zimmerman is no small guy, he is in good health and he is an adult... Martin, being a minor, automatically has a certain level of fear of adults, does he not? We teach that kids are abducted by adults and that adults often use a position of authority to get a hold of the minor to begin with...

Disparity of force isn't really going to be easy to prove is it???

That said, we circle back to whether Zimmerman began a confrontation or was he still looking for Martin or retreating to his car and was jumped unexpectedly...

I have had two violent interactions with neighborhood watch guys... Once as a minor and once as an adult... Neither time was I charged with assault even though I threw the first punch both times... Both times the cops on scene basically told the NWG that they had over stepped their NW parameters and "had it coming"...

The first time, the guy was old enuff to claim assault on the elderly and the officer told him he would suggest I demand the NWG be charged with, iirc, "unlawful detention" or some such wording... both times, I just did my best to ignore them and was shining them on and continuing my walking until a hand was laid on me...

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Old July 7, 2013, 12:45 PM   #38
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First of all, just because you own a home in a HOA controlled subdivision doesn't give you a right to "stop and confront" folks that are on the "Common Ground" or "Public right of Way" areas...

And neighborhood watch is called that for a reason... It is not "Neighborhood Stop and Interrogate"...

In this case Zimmerman, fully an adult, planned to confront a minor child to ask what he was doing in a subdivision of many families, of which Zimmerman didn't likely know everyone and should have known there were black families who may have kids...
If Zimmerman is telling the truth, he was not trying to stop or confront Martin. He followed him in the car for a while and when Martin ran off, he got out the car to try and determine the direction he went as the police requested. To nit pick it they did not tell him to get out of the car, but he thought that is what they wanted him to do. In order to do this and to tell the police where he was he walked up to the next street to try and get the address and was returning to his car when Martin confronted him and struck him. According to Martin's friend who was on the phone with him, he at some point had reached the back door of the place he was staying. The residence is a long way from where the final fight took place and there is no evidence that Zimmerman ever went down the path to the residence. So Martin after reaching safety, even if he thought Zimmerman was up to no good, he returned several hundred feet to confront him. My guess is that his friend on the phone suggested he go back and beat him up, no evidence of that presented of course but her later actions suggest to me she felt guilty of contributing to Martin's death.

If that is true, Martin started the fight and was at a minimum trying to beat Zimmerman severely. Even after Mr. Good yelled and them and told him he was calling the cops Martin continued to beat Zimmerman. By this time Zimmerman was very afraid he was going to be killed and was screaming for help. So even if he had started the fight at this point he was clearly suing for peace. After he thought Martin had spotted the pistol and was trying to take it he got control of hit and shot Martin.

His story has some minor variations through the various retellings, but it is consistent that he was not trying to confront Martin, he was not the aggressor and he was in fear of his life. The police and local prosecutors all agreed that there was no case for manslaughter let a lone 2nd degree murder.

Given the evidence I have seen, I have watched some of the proceedings but mostly summaries of the events and tweets, he certainly looks to have been justified in shooting Martin. Yes, he may have been able to other things to have not had to shoot Martin, but hindsight is 20-20.
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:48 PM   #39
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I found interesting the defense's assertion that Martin was "armed" with a deadly weapon: the sidewalk. Although it was stationary, it was being used to inflict damage on Zimmerman.

Are there any cases where this argument has been used successfully?
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:50 PM   #40
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There is plenty of proof he planned to follow or he wouldn't have left his vehicle... There is further evidence he planned to stop and confront him since he didn't continue following from the vehicle and left on foot...

I think Zimmerman once stated he planned to ask where he was going or some such...

While there is no law that says you cannot have a chat with someone in public, there are equally no laws compelling the otherone to entertain this interaction...

Me I would just tell the guy to bug off and if they chose to make it a confrontation, they had that option...

Basically, had this happened to me, I would likely have been the dead kid...

Brent
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:53 PM   #41
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Motorhead, I am surprised they didn't claim he was also armed with two vicious fists as well... And fists have been shown many times to be able to be lethal weapons...

Brent
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Old July 7, 2013, 12:53 PM   #42
maestro pistolero
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Disparity of force isn't really going to be easy to prove is it ?
I disagree here, too, Hogdogs. It is self evident that a disparity of force existed at the time of the gunshot because the eyewitness to the attack, John Good, observed Martin assaulting Zimmerman with what he described as an MMA style "ground and pound technique". Martin was pinned and unable to retreat.

Zimmerman was being subjected to an unrelenting attack wherein he was unable to defend himself without the use of lethal force. This is definitively a disparity of force.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:01 PM   #43
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And to be clear, I feel that no matter how it went down, there was one point where Zimmerman no longer had a chance to retreat if he wanted to and was in fear of death or GBH... I just wasn't so quick to see it as Zimmerman having done things right from the git go...

We already know words were exchanged before the first blow... We only have Zimmermans testimony, as credible as it is, that he didn't begin with catching up with Martin...

And he states he went for his phone to call the police back once he found Martin.... This says the fight did not start immediately and he still wouldn't be able to give the cops a good address to get to him since he was still in the "back of the homes" where house numbers were not present...

I hope this case does shed some knowledge on those who feel compelled to stop and question citizens just walking down the street... Cops are limited here and citizens are even less authorized to engage others who may wish not entertain such contact...

Brent
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:04 PM   #44
maestro pistolero
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There is plenty of proof he planned to follow or he wouldn't have left his vehicle... There is further evidence he planned to stop and confront him since he didn't continue following from the vehicle and left on foot...
Nope. You really should watch the police video reenactment from the following day. He agreed not to follow Martin, believed that he was gone, and was looking for an address to give the dispatcher. There were no visible street signes at that location. But even if he WAS hoping to observe Martin's direction of travel while looking for an address, that would be reasonable, legal, and would have no bearing on culpability in the shooting.
Quote:
I think Zimmerman once stated he planned to ask where he was going or some such...
Nope, again. He never said any such thing.

Quote:
While there is no law that says you cannot have a chat with someone in public, there are equally no laws compelling the otherone to entertain this interaction...

Me I would just tell the guy to bug off and if they chose to make it a confrontation, they had that option...
True. Martin was as free to ignore Zimmerman as Zimmerman would have been to question Martin. But again, no contact was ever attempted by GZ, and no evidence of it yet exists.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:06 PM   #45
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One might consider and we cannot know that Zimmerman flashed the gun at Martin. If he did, Martin had self-defense on his side. A strange man following you and flashing a gun is a threat.

I wouldn't say that it was out of the question that he postured that way.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:09 PM   #46
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Zimmerman was being subjected to an unrelenting attack wherein he was unable to defend himself without the use of lethal force. This is definitively a disparity of force.
Exactly, and it does not matter the age of either subject involved.

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Martin, being a minor, automatically has a certain level of fear of adults, does he not?
Not in my experience. Kids used to have a level of respect for their elders, sadly, that seems to be less and less the case. Usually they are more apt to react violently against adults, since they feel they are somehow "protected" by the laws of which you speak.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:12 PM   #47
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we cannot know that Zimmerman flashed the gun at Martin
If GZ had flashed his gun, Martin would have definitely included that info in his cell phone call to his female friend, which he did not do.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:18 PM   #48
maestro pistolero
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And to be clear, I feel that no matter how it went down, there was one point where Zimmerman no longer had a chance to retreat if he wanted to and was in fear of death or GBH... I just wasn't so quick to see it as Zimmerman having done things right from the git go...
I agree completely.

I know this isn't a thread about tactics, so I'll limit my opinion to the following: There were at least two tactical errors from Zimmerman that could have avoided the outcome. 1, Having a gun and no pepper spray, and 2, Fumbling for his phone instead of maintaining focus on Martin once Martin announced his presence "yo, you got a problem?". Zimmerman never noticed Martin closing distance to punch him until it was too late. A shot of OC at that point might have bought him at least a few seconds to escape.

Back to the subject at hand. Neither of those errors have bearing on whether Zimmerman feared for life or limb at the time of the shot.

Last edited by maestro pistolero; July 7, 2013 at 01:26 PM.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:26 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by hogdogs
First of all, just because you own a home in a HOA controlled subdivision doesn't give you a right to "stop and confront" folks that are on the "Common Ground" or "Public right of Way" areas...
If this were true there could be no gated communities, so since there are many, I disagree with this assumption.
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Old July 7, 2013, 01:36 PM   #50
hogdogs
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Martin likely stopped the phone call when he knew he would be confronted or when he hid, whichever way it went...

Maestro, I am not arguing that Zimmerman didn't at some point have the right to self defense with lethal force...

Just that I was not immediately looking at this as a "good shoot" as so many did...

As for minors fearing adults, I mean fear of crime being committed against them...
Abduction, robbery etc...

Brent
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